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This is Shifty, coming in with fan-mailed leaks from the SKn server that just keeps on giving the more you look into it. Today Shifty is here to punish the people of Orbis for their treachery by dropping this shit on 'em. Can you really trust coalition mates? More on Elijah planning and anti-Camelot sentiment. Could the whole bloc (Citadel) have been made to harm Camelot? Maybe they're born with it, maybe it's just Epi >that feel when you're just a meatshield >tfw you want to be king of the meatshields tho This is Shifty, doing what must be done.

This thread is cancer

The moment it became convenient to do so.

Hey everyone, this Friday at 7 pm Pacific time (10 Eastern) we are having a special edition of my radio show, Prime Time Booty Time! This episode will feature: Me and Kimmy being our usual great selves Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet Ronny D's triumphant return Me complaining about the stat sheet still being down Advertisements (that are really disses on other alliances that I didn't get paid for tbh) Live rapping maybe a little bit of crying ... and more! I also plan to talk about why I think that Coalition B is in for a little bit of a disappointing surprise when it comes to war performance. That could be interesting too. Finally, I am just about done with my diss track on Charlie Traveler. It will be released Friday or before then. Please send thoughts and prayers to Charlie. Cool, that's about all. Hope that you guys listen in. The show will be on the Factory Fresh Media discord (which may or may not be owned by the guy that I'm releasing a diss track on).

I'm not really sure how we had a secret alliance? We had a unilateral set of criteria for acting in a situation where we felt someone would be overwhelmed and at the mercy of broad coalition. It was a huge concern for me that us cancelling would be a way for people to dogpile what remained there because we all have an idea of what the alliances can and can't do. How did I backstab them? Backstabbing would entail that we didn't tell them what we'd do or what we wanted to do or that we committed some action against them. Our intentions were pretty clear. I don't know where the stabbing part is in this post. Us getting wrecked isn't exactly a backstab. They might have hated what we did, but it's hard to say we stabbed them in the back.The reason I happened to post a DoW was to distance them from the action so they wouldn't be seen as having violated their unilateral declaration. How were they bullshit? Guardian and GOB signing into KT/TGH sphere was presented as problematic as they were now tied to everyone who did the post-initial blitz take downs of those two. DTC had gone to Oblivion and Rose was seemingly broadcasting their moves to KETOG ahead of time and we all know once abbas went back that he'd be looking out for you primarily. Most of the people who had carried the fronts had solidified around you. LIke I wasn't really lying when I said it was a limited number of people who coordinated the whale takedowns in the last war. Anyone who was there would be aware of that fact. The fact that you just dismiss this issue outright is more you don't really want to see it as me having a genuine concern. You had a very good hand in having most of the big individual hitters in the coalition loyal to you and then you also got the toughest nuts to crack. This is a new one. Did BK end up hitting Chaos? Was Chaos at any point in significant danger of being overwhelmed by the BKsphere? The very screen leaked seemed to anticipate difficulty. We can talk about 900 nations all day but it matters where exactly those 900 nations are tiering-wise and how well they're acquainted with the war system. I'm not sure where you got the idea I was obsessed with hitting KETOG or needing to do it in tandem with some other war. Hitting KETOG would make sense as it's the most robust group militarily and thus would be the biggest challenge available, yes, but I didn't push the idea initially. That's mostly because we were well aware it'd turn this underdog narrative about how you guys are so outnumbered but it was a problem that so much power had concentrated around KT/TGH and Rose had left Syndicate with it pretty much being called by KT/TGH. Then someone friendly to KT/TGH was heavily involved in Rose again. We can also go into the ties between the ex-Rose in Valinor and Rose . I don't know how it's retroactive justification. The rationale for entering the war was given at the time of declaration. So you'd think it'd have been balanced to hit BK even though it would make it into a curbstomp? Let's not talk about nationcounts again, but you know us collaborating with all the people who wanted to hit BK would be overwhelming. I could see this being an argument if the BKsphere demonstrated that it could take on the sphere and overwhelm them quickly rather than it being a slog. I'm just not sure where all of this stuff about hegemony would finally come into play with us having a preponderance of influence and power. They made some progress at lower score levels but were getting killed as soon as they approached anything substantial and the lower tier has been heavily contested by your side. Well, I was told that there had been outreach and target dates to peace out Citadel. With Camelot, there were reports of low morale. FR was pretty much not really in the war and basically not putting up any fight. The peace the way they did it was bad for Cov, but they had not been putting much effort into fighting. TFP did more but was containable. Well the scenario that was posed before the GOB/Guardian hit was that once BK was subdued(I don't think it necessarily would entail peacing entirely), that we'd get hit because we were seen as being just as worthy of getting hit as BK. This seemed more likely after the GOB/Guardian theater was opened as there would be ample time to lock down the other fronts before switching. It would be easy to spin a major sphere that sits out a war as being pixel huggers and it would also deter outside assistance as it would be seen as people who stat hugged sitting on the sidelines getting what they deserved. It's likely they'd want to get even some day, but it wouldn't be within their power to do so, as their sphere would be in really bad shape and the morale would be low after having been pummeled for x amount of time and not able to do much about it. There also just wouldn't really be much motivation for them to "bail out" people who had been in a position to act but chose not to specifically simply to avoid the PR damage of doing something that benefited BK in some way. The way I saw it was that there wasn't going to be an end in sight for the main cluster(BK/TC) until they were incapacitated and they'd still be held down for a while after that. As Keshav noted, Akuryo saying what he did wasn't the first we heard of a decision to pursue terms/hold them down. The main econ damage to BK had been done as they had sold infra, so it wasn't really evident to me what else the other side would be looking for if the war was primarily to punish BK after thoroughly trouncing their sphere. It just didn't look to be leading anywhere pretty.

Damn, imagine fighting about who gets to be the Chief Slayyve. BK are a lucky alliance to have so many devoted followers

And what this picture fails to show is the 300+ nations you have sitting right below that at 20 cities.

Oh I don't know Roq. You had a secret alliance with the sphere you supposedly broke from while you both were the two largest groupings. You backstabbed your own ally to defend your former ally. You had your narratives for hitting GOB/Guardian prepared and ready before we ever hit BK. (And they were bullshit) You were in talks with BKsphere about hitting us. You only enforce your arbitrary "balancing attempts" on people not called BK. Apparently BK with their 900 nations hitting Chaos isn't worthy of your benevolent intervention. No you'd rather hit KETOGG instead. Which is why your attempt to retroactively justify your shit with "it was just to keep balance" falls flat.

I mean, if that's the way you want to see it that's fine, but if you're going to quote to our toxic moments constantly and then meme our genuine outreach then you've shown just exactly how little we should expect when we dedicate energy to dialogue.

I thought you just had the one straight forward question? Pretty sure this is the same question reworded to somehow get me to throw Sketchy under the bus. I've said it, and Buorhann has said it, in differing ways. We understand Sketchy's frustration. The amount of work that went into shifting the paradigm of the game was a labor of literal years. To see such promise only to have it thrown down on what we see as weak premises is sure to frustrate the hell out of anyone, let alone someone so intimately involved in the pursuit of its success. We don't want to perma war you and drive you out of Orbis. But we are upset.

So I was considering something, and I think I realized something really interesting. All the intended parties(BK, TCW, TGH, KT, TKR, CoS, and NPO) all achieved their war goals with this war, albeit at different times of the war. KT/TGH/TKR wanted to incapacitate BK sphere for targeting them. They are, and you could honestly say that FA-wise, they lost a lot of allies and meatshields, so this war crippled their FA pull. BK/TCW wanted to incapacitate the 2 smaller spheres, they did so, they achieved their goals as KTsphere and Chaos can’t realistically fight them anytime soon. NPO wanted to incapacitate KTsphere and Chaos from being able to roll NSOsphere post war. While their may be smaller things, this is what every sphere wanted. Sooooo why can’t everyone end the war and move on? It’s literally gotten to the point where everyone won what they wanted.

tfw no big tiddie @Epi gf :(((

Nah you're right. And it's not even close. This misses a few guys in bank AAs on both sides because I'm lazy, but you can get the general picture. That's 2.41x as many nations at 21+ and 7.4x as many at 30+ It evens out a bit if we go down to C20 since NPO is tiered there, with 218 in Coalition B, to Coalition A's 270. And it gets way worse if you go up to C25 with just 34 nations in Coalition B having 25 or more cities, in comparison to the 121 nations in Coalition B who are at that level. In fact, Coalition A has more nations at 30+ than Coalition B has at 25+.

Why should we believe that it's genuine now and not just a charade you're putting on because you've lost and are trying to backpedal onto the moral highground after you jumped off? The fact is at the beginning of the war you thought you were going to win and therefore you were honest, and now that you're losing you want us to believe you? The crux of the issue is you're refusing to respect our intelligence, everything your coalition posted at the beginning of the war clearly indicated you wanted to permanently destroy us, you can't doubleback now that you're down a month later and expect anything better than ridicule. You're coalition is acting like the person who runs to VM at the beginning of a war claiming their busy IRL and jumps out the second that it's finished and for some mind-boggling reason expects people to believe they weren't just war dodging despite all the evidence to the contrary. The fact that NPO is still trying to engage you even somewhat reasonably speaks to their immense naivety in expecting honest and good faith discussions from your side. It's politically incompetent actions like this that made me so anti-NPO and that combined with the pointless in-game antagonism by BK is what made me so anti-BK which is why UPN has always been as far away from IQ as we possible could while maintaining the only tie we cared about at the time.

Ketog, Chaos and Rose, each completely non-aligned to each other, can join a war together against a common foe, with CB "BK and N$O planning a war against them". ✅. Alright, everything's fine until here. N$O, a bit alligned to BK due to the treaty-web, is not allowed to declare a war against blocs, that used "BK and N$O planning a war against them". ❓ Where is the logic behind that? Doesn't need much brain matter to know who would have been rolled in the next or a bit later in the same war.... While I indeed condemn the content of that leak, attacking two smaller blocs like that, that original war itself has never happened. It was a "What if" case, if "Surfs Up" never had happened. The reality was another one: The first mentioned alliances, instead of dealing with it diplomatically, decided to use their low Infra situation to completely sweep over BK in an Offensive War. None of you know how tight the bonds between N$O and BK really were until it became necessary to bond again together, since the CB was one that was only a coin throw away to simply affect the other one. Any further complaints about the righteousness of anyone's war entry is by now just plain salt. Salt especially over the ingames war mechanics that can't simulate a "Desert Storm". The initial Blitz was nicely executed, really well done. I wondered sometimes if the 25% downdeclare range still exists. But in the end and finally coming to the topic of this thread: This war will go as long as we need to kill all the pixel-hugging whales on your side. Thanks to Ketog here for thinking they're an advantage. Against whom was this dual-joke idea of Guardian/Grumpy directed? As you can see, they're nothing but useless baggage starting round 2 if there's no counterpart on the enemy side. ...Happily building cities at war (from trade income) and bunkering up while the rest of you is bleeding.

Lol I’ll trade “PR” for incapacitating multiple hostile spheres. That’s a good war metric.

Sorry to interrupt your regular pixel burning, but I felt like talking about the pig-disgusting habit of pixel huggery. As Orbis is where it should be (with - almost - everyone reking each others' pixels), I thought it was a good time to reflect on this fascinating phenomenon, which directly correlates to war dodging. Over the years I've been playing this game, I've come to observe many people, and a few alliances in particular, repeatedly war dodge. The 2 best examples are Dark Brotherhood and RnR. DB is yet to participate in an alliance war (Yoda did fight a bit in Knightfall which led to some TKRsphere nations hitting DB but it ended quickly), having been around for a considerable amount of time. RnR, which has several nations that originated from the former (and also pixel hugging) RnR, plus a bunch of other nations versed in the ways of war dodging, is also yet to take part in an alliance war. Imo this requires a lot of skill, mainly political. I would have thought for sure that joining NPO's side would inevitably make DB finally fight, but apparently I was wrong. I hope at least they're serving as cash cows for their allies, which would somewhat help justify their pathetic existence. RnR is a slightly different case. Led by one of the biggest pixel huggers in the game (thanks for the embargo on my alliance btw honeybuns :*), you merely have to take a look at their war stats to come to the conclusion that we're talking about pixel hugging / war dodging professionals. Politics aside (I've pretty much stopped caring about them since Knightfall ended), I think this is where we as a community have failed. We used to talk trash about GPA war profiteering. This is much worse. These are neutrals disguised as real alliances. When you see several nations (some of them with incredibly low city count) with ridiculously high amounts of infra in one alliance, and p much the rest of the game is burning, you come to the inevitable conclusion that these folks have been outsmarting the rest of us pretty hard. So I just hope one day someone (I don't care who although I hope I'll participate) will finally roll this pixel hugging trash into the dirt, and make them see they can't always play in peace mode. I for one have been doing my part and will give a forum cookie to anyone who's kind enough to calculate the total damage I've dealt RnR with my solitary roguery.

Sorry. I won't do it again

Cetacean cancer at that.

If whales don't matter why did you sign Guardian/GOB instead of all the page 3 micros? Sounds like you're incompetent to choose two alliances who can only sit around until they're dragged down to die over the clearly superior army of 2 city nations down there.

Two things: 1) That appears in the image you posted to be from the #high-chambers room on the Citadel server. 2) Thank you for confirming who I thought the leak was.

Le post war camelot merges to BK BK STRONK

Imagine being this obsessed with epi lmao

I literally wrote about that in the text you quoted without reading. It's 218:270 in Coalition A's favour at 20 cities. And we have 121 nations at C20, not 300+. But this conversation was about whales, and so I probably should have presented the initial data at 25+ anyway. Which, if you bother to read the text you quoted shows a roughly 7:2 advantage for Coalition A. Edit: Since I'm bored here you go. 21+ was actually a more balanced picture than the real upper tier.

There are no goals, we just noticed you can click more buttons during war

Well I gave it a try, probably stayed at it too long. If you genuinely believe this about me and the argument I’m making you’re too far gone down a pit of intransigence. If anyone wants to continue talking, you can find me on discord. Good chatting with you @Shadowthrone and @Edward I.

You'll never see a faster backtrack/excuse-making than when TGH realizes their members/gov have said something(s) dumb and hostile again. Good luck Hodor, you're doing your best!

No.

Your leader sat in a coalition channel last war laughing about making players quit. Far be it from me to suggest slursphere isn't toxic: they're slursphere. But you're in the same boat.

@Keegoz > Or when you have 2 Nuke Power plants and both get taken out in by a nuke, twice in the same war by the same guy......

The conversion rate in today's economy is insane.

Wow you must suck at parties

Hey in Alabama that doesn't matter.

1st Nation title: Central African Republic https://politicsandwar.com/nation/id=161923 2nd Nation title: South Canada https://politicsandwar.com/nation/id=163594 Suspecting evidence: Sharing the same network, In the same alliance, Sending money with another, Fighting the same nation, Active on the same time Also want to report a straightforward game violation: Using inapporiate words for war declaration.

Same to you mate.

You're right, my apologies. When I wrote 300+, I had 18-20 in mind and either forgot to adjust for just city 20 folks/my statement to 18-20 cities. But also, who all are you including in Coalition A for City 20? Because I have us down for 40 c20 nations, not 270, so that's more than a little off.... Edit: Sorry, just realized you were counting 20+, not just 20 city people.

Yeah you're right. I always thought that I could be wrong about how many whales they actually have, but the fact that Buorhann never tried to actually prove anything just proves me right. We'll see in 2 months from now, cause we never know. Who shall win this war ? KERCHTOGG will probably use NPO as an excuse of why they lost... it has already begun ?

I've said it before and I'll say it again: It's a matter of trust. Peace can only happen when both parties can trust the other with it, and after all of the atrocities and perfidy that IQ suspected from their enemies and committed themselves, there's almost certainly no way that trust can ever exist again. At most there might be a pause, but even that seems unlikely since I suspect we're at a point where mutual benefit is no longer an option. If peace is in one side's interest, then the other will perceive that peace must therefore not be in their interest. We could have lived in a world where trust between enemies could exist; where war and peace could be handled without toxicity and any gain for someone did not necessarily have to come at the expense of everyone else. But no, IQ can't even understand the concept of such a world.

Some of them can't understand the fact that they might lose. That's why they're complaining. A lot of KERCHTOGG members have been really nice and are just enjoying the war, but some others are ruining it for everyone else. I agree that the problem's on both sides tho. But a lot of members of the KERCGTOGG keep on saying that we have 2 times more people than them, while ignoring the fact that they got more whales than us (which is obvious), and that's exactly the reason why they still have better stats. It's complicated for some people to understand that they might lose after attacking first an enemy that was going to hit them. They could have talked to our gov, maybe there would have still be a conflict, but we never know. Instead, they hit us, and are now complaining about us bringing our protectorates and friends. NPO came and helped us, and now they're mad. Instead of peacing out, they'll wait until they've dealt enough damages to us, but it will be too late. The war will continue for months, and it'll just be better for us. We're not "winning", but soon we will be. And about NPO helping us, I heard no one (or a few people) complaining about Rose coming to help Kertog/Chaos. Because (unless someone proves me wrong), they had no place in this war. Of course, this is a game, and they have the right to attack whoever they want, but NPO has that right too. It's not a bad thing that they joined tho, big wars are cooler, and with Rose, KERCHTOGG has more chances against us. But once again, those same people who complain about friends backing us up, have friends backing them up. In an offensive wars, let's not forget.

Edited the above post slightly, just FYI. But yeah, suffice to say I wasn't aware it was said, so thanks for bringing it up here to clarify.

I thought we'd been over this. An agreement between t$ and NPO - allies with a public treaty - is not a paperless tie with BK. If you're saying that, in this instance, it had a similar effect to a paperless tie, then you're kind of agreeing with the central point of my argument, which is that there is an undue focus on appearances at the expense of substance. Does cooperation between Chaos and KETOG via a coalition mean they have paperless ties? I don't think so, but it's had the same substantive effect as an alternate scenario in which they do. Does an ODoAP between NPO and Polaris do or promise anything that couldn't have been without it? Not really, but that hasn't stopped people from claiming otherwise. Does the notion that everyone really separated because they deleted lines on a treaty web amount to anything more than an unverifiable promise - an appearance, in other words? Not really. Just because others chose to define minispheres in almost purely aesthetic terms doesn't mean we had to.

Thrax is right about this. @Edward I - Let’s try not to ignore the context to what provoked Sketchy’s comment. NPO was given the benefit of the doubt, multiple times, and... well... you acted. His comments come after your actions. And while I don’t back any terms or forced methods of separating (or creating) treaty ties, I certainly do back him on his cynical attitude towards NPO and BK. There’s absolutely no reason to trust you folks now at the moment. (Also lol@BK and their ties being a minisphere) Fixed it for you.

Uhm. Edit: let's also bear in mind that minispheres was not some contrived plot dreamed up by the rest of the game to try and pigeon-hole NPO. That's just paranoid and silly. What it was, was something that your allies in t$ pushed as their rationale for their FA moves. I can't tell you what the comms you had with t$ were; maybe you guys were very upfront about thinking their entire idea for signing them was stupid? But I'm sure I wasn't the only person who was assured NPO was ready to break from IQ, and I have trouble thinking of a better scenario for you guys to have done it if you really had a mind to. Ergo, I conclude you never really had that intent. That's my reasoning, and I think it's pretty sensible honestly. There's a pretty large amount of back channel stuff that does not look good for your alliance's intent as well. Far more than that cobbled together mess you guys tried to pull on TKR. If I send bitter on that point, well yes. I am. As someone who was actually bored with IQ vs not-IQ bipolarity, it sucks having your side parrot that intent only to fall back into it instantly and deliberately.

Yes Sketchy sinking ships and burning everyone involved with us, isn't a threat to our existence whatsoever. Good attempt at trying to deflect though. We never have had hegemonic ambitions and none of our actions has ever led to that. That being said, it's chill that you're not walking back your words. @Hodor here mate, tell me why again we have to somehow give you the benefit of the doubt when your leader has no interest to deny he's not out to disband/scorch the earth with regards to the NPO?

Idk he’s not very bright from what I’ve seen. He dose not understand that micros are important for the game.

I've had the same problem @Sphinx which is why I posted in that different font. And what you said about wars making aliances stronger is obviously accurate. They help trim the fat and you end up with the troopers. I have no doubt that the likes of TKR and TCW are better alliances after getting rolled in the last global. Ultimately wars teach you basic stuff as well, like not rebuilding infra in a recently nuked city. Unless you had forgotten to put 2 nuclear power plants there and one got nuked ofc. Otherwise those are the basics that only war can teach a player. Plus war has a purging effect. I used to hate NPO back in my t$ days. Having fought them (several times) completely eliminated that feeling. Now I got nothing but respect for them, same for TKR which I used to hate back in my Arrgh and TEst days. Fighting (unless the opponents behave like dicks) helps build mutual respect, at least that's how I see it. So not only shouldn't alliances avoid war, they should see it as na opportunity to fight alongside allies, learn something new and even make friends on the opposite side. Some of the people I like the most in this game have fought me, and that's a pretty awesome thing in my book.

Could be his bank history