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Nation Link: https://politicsandwar.com/nation/id=18180&display=bank Ruler Name: Seb Nature of Violation: I'm not even sure how to classify this So, there's a few guys who owe me like 20 bucks irl but I've never seen them since high school, @Alex what's the standard rate for helping me get my loans back? Now, on a more serious note, this is unnecessary administration interference into meta, player-to-player banking/loaning operations. Banking has always been and will remain a player risk. People quit all the time. People default on loans all the time. It's nothing unheard of. If you can't handle the risks, don't loan your cash away. You don't get to call an admin in with a baseball bat to settle your debts for you. Unless.. we are to assume you are going to become an active meta factor, pursuing all the defaulted loans from people who quit the game in the past 4 years? If so, an infinite waiting line is gonna form at your door right about... now.

Peace has been achieved between the forces of coalition whatever we're called today and the Orange Defense Network under the following conditions: - No more wars will be declared as of the posting of this announcement - Existing wars to be finished at discretion - 6 month NAP Happy rebuild! /s/ for ODN: Osravan /s/ coalition whatthefrick

What a dangerous precedent it sets. We all know the risks on loans and lending out money and that is why people charge interest to help mitigate that risk. Also choosing who you deal with is key to a banks success. This isnt even a government bailout from say your alliance this is basically an act of god with money being created to compensate an already risky venture. Anyone who lost money with NPO and friends mass deleting should not expect to be compensated from moderation, that is absolutely ludicrous.

I am torn. This is a situation that absolutely could have, should have, been avoided in its entirety. But it wasn't, and here we are. Alex, it's true that you laid some stiff penalties on NPO. But that didn't force them to disband. They did that to themselves. Same for BK. If NPO lacked enough leadership to suffer the loss of a single person, that is NPO's problem, not yours or anyone else's. If BK lacked the maturity to accept this with grace and integrity, that too is their problem, not yours or anyone else's. I appreciate that you are trying to cater to your players with this decision, that you likely feel a bit of guilt in what has happened. But you shouldn't. I believe that, if anything, your verdict against NPO was too light. And I believe that everything that followed it was a dramatic overreaction from people who can't handle that they might not, despite their best efforts (and best cheating), win. To reiterate: you did not force them to dissolve. That was their choice. I do not say this lightly. Many of you know that I was a banker - until extremely recently, in fact. It has been less than a week since I formally turned over my latest bank (which did also get shafted by BK, and I hear that you have given the same half-refund to it, so I'm not calling favoritism on this) to someone else. I am torn precisely because I recognize that as a banker I would appreciate the gesture. But I'm not sure it's good for the game as a whole. Maybe it's the old man in me talking, but I rather think that bankers should simply live with their losses as best they can. Such is life. Such is banking. I will admit to being a bit disappointed that you offered the deal to Emerald without making the deal public, or offering it to anyone else, rather making them go to you and persuade you. THAT stinks of arbitrary favoritism. I am pleased you saw fit to amend that error. In the future perhaps you will remember to make such offers to the community as a whole instead of selected members of it.

Hello, Right now it is impossible for blind players using screen reading software to move their nations as it requires interacting with a map. Blind people don't care about the actual location of the nation on a map we can't see, so would it be possible to add in a dropdown box to move your nation to a random position on a selected continent?

Banking strats will always exist. Bailing out Emerald bank isn't saving the banking playstyle but this particular bank.

Furthermore the moderation action is not what caused them to be unable to pay. The fact that those alliances chose to quit over it is not your decision and rests entirely on them. I’ve lost billions historically from players noping out and quitting based on rules changes and other such situations - this is a very dangerous precedent to set and I sincerely and seriously urge you to reconsider this. BK and GotG are not even directly impacted by the moderation action so why would you include them in this? Edit: To Alex above - if they didn’t cheat they also wouldn’t have the ability to pay it back presumably and even in their state they could have chosen to stay around and likely pay off their debts. Then choosing to quit does not constitute a valid reason for moderation intervention in this manner and thinking that this one action would have killed banning in the game is a complete overreaction.

I'm building a list of projects (not the in game ones) to be worked on the following months in game. I'd like to hear what the community views as the largest issues in game. Things that I'm looking for are for example: Planes overpowered. Too many captchas. Politics and snore too long. Need more attack types. Need more projects. etc... This list is not to include anything about moderation, rule enforcement or things of that nature. Please air your biggest gripes with the gameplay and I will do what I can to move design aspects that address those problems higher up on the "to-do" queue.

Its completely unacceptable that you stepped in. BK getting butt hurt and leaving was because their BFF got caught cheating not because you done anything. So Seb and others aren't entitled to a thing. For someone that has been eating all sorts of crap about favoritism it baffles me why you would think this was ok.

Another Thorny Maleficent Winter Secrecy House Stark & Order of the White Rose will solve any and all issues in private, without maleficence. Peace House Stark & Order of the White Rose will never declare war on, or commit any maleficent act of espionage on a member of the opposite alliance. Intelligence House Stark & Order of the White Rose hereby agree to share any and all intelligence about upcoming wars, sovereignty, or any intelligence that may endanger or suggest maleficent intent towards the existence of the other alliance. Mutual Defense & Optional Aggression If either House Stark or Order of the White Rose come under maleficent attack it is required they come to each others aid within a 72-hour timeframe. Both House Stark & Order of the White Rose have the option to assist each other in an aggressive manner. -MALEFICENTLY REDACTED- Cancellation Should either House Stark or Order of the White Rose feel the maleficent need to leave this pact they must give the other alliance a 72-Hour notice of intent to leave. Signed for House Stark: King of the North: Zygon the Maleficent Hand of the King: Darth Ataxia the Maleficent Battle Master: Zygon the Maleficent Master of Coin: Engjine the Maleficent Three Eyed Raven: Extra Darth Ataxia the Extra Maleficent Maester: Sojourner the Maleficent Signed for Order of the White Rose Prime: Sval the Maleficent Prime Regent: Monkeybutt the Maleficent Legate of Foreign Affairs: Bulbasaursucks the Maleficent Legate of Internal Affairs: Kabu the Maleficent Legate of Economics: Bendigeidfran the Maleficent Proconsul of Potatoes: Axios the Maleficent Proconsul of Tacos: Qora the Maleficent

Thanks all! Honestly thought this would go on a while longer as our allies went guerrilla warfare when I made my last thread. But sadly with them leaving the game, there would be no reason but pride to continue with this. So peace is here. Thanks to all those who gave us a good fight. You were mostly honorable opponents who offered us fair terms here. And to our allies and friends who are leaving we will miss having you around. It was an honor to to fight alongside you while we could. You were the best friends we could have asked for.

That explanation is weak @Alex especially the fact that you are blanket extending it to BK and GotG loans as those alliances quit because you took action against NPOs cheating. You did absolutely nothing to those alliances so I am not sure how even your prior reasoning can justify this action. People made a bad call investing so much with a certain group of alliances. We all knew there was some shady stuff going on with NPO and their farm alliance and people chose to ignore that or take the risk. It didnt pay off, oh well. If you think those people defaulting is going to destroy the player banking aspect of this game you are really out of touch with how this game is played. There were more than enough people not affected by this action to fill the void. That is certain. You are listening to a small group of individuals trying to protect themselves and their money. That is not good for gameplay and I call on you to reverse this decision and clawback all the stuff you've generated and given out so far.

It won't kill war. Keep in mind that we've gone through the most controversial time in this game's history. It's going to take some time to readjust to new futures, and hopefully within this time, @Alex will take advantage of it and bring out some new additions or changes to the game.

There's no justification for this: NPO was cheating, which isn't Seb's fault, but he wasn't wronged by anyone other than NPO not paying him back. That's part of the game, and if I loan something to someone and they delete, it'd be ridiculous for me to run to game admin demanding compensation.

To be able to set your own update time. Double buy is pretty useful strategy during war but I am not that passionate as I used to be to stay up to 1am/2am.

Plenty of people and capital available to have replaced those banks, had they gone under. Many got shafted or negatively impaired as a result of this entire sequence of events. I fail to see why bankers, of all people, should be recipients of benefits.

Oh no... We're ruining the game... I think the more pressing issue we're facing right now is "half" the game quitting because they're not allowed to get away with cheating. But that's just me.

I'd rather suggest making a limit on how many messages can nations younger than 30/60 days send daily. 5 seems reasonable.

Again: Seb made a bad loan to an entity that couldn't pay him back. If they don't cheat, they don't have the resources to repay him. Your moderation action didn't screw him over: He was screwed over when he agreed to make the loan. Why should he expect to be compensated with illicitly generated funds?

I do not agree with you. First of all bankers should approach the alliances and their member nations. NPO still exists yet you are repaying a loan on their behalf. Black Knights and Guardians of the Galaxy chose to disband, but many of their members joined other alliances - and yet you pay on their behalf. Why repay a loan on behalf of active alliances and nations ? NPO, BK and Guardians of the Galaxy could have easily repaid their loans and their unwillingness to do so is their fault, not yours. This unwillingness and the risk that a nation deletes is a risk banks regularly take. Why shelter these banks from this risk, but not others? Risk management is part of the banking game, every successful banker knows that and knows not to lend out more than they can afford to lose. Even extraordinary risks have to be considered, and if there’s one scenario where it is deemed appropriate to mitigate a loss then that raises an effectively infinite number of questions as to when else it might be appropriate to. Would you return 50% of a loan that was given to an individual player that was banned for cheating? Would you return 50% of a loan that was given to someone that was living in Australia when a meteor annihilated all life on the subcontinent? That’s a moderation headache that can easily be avoided by simply maintaining total neutrality. The reasoning "However, the players that invest in and operate these "banks" add a lot to the community, and I don't want to see them fail because of a moderation action I took." is flawed. Why only worry about these banks failing in this case? If some banks fail, it just means new ones can join the market and establish themselves, compete and grow. If you support this bank in case of nation deletions, but let others take the loss, you take a side here @Alex. Compensating one bank means denying other banks, sacrificing neutrality and thus damaging the banking community rather than preserving it. As mentioned: NPO, BK and Guardians of the Galaxy could have easily repaid their loans and their unwillingness to do so is their fault, not yours. It’s not fair to the banks that didn’t loan to NPO&CO to compensate the banks that did. The risk of default is in no way extraordinary, regardless of the means by which it occurs. Even defaults due to deletion or bans aren’t unheard of, so it’s not fair to consider this a ‘one-time thing’. Consistency counts in moderation, and this action undermines your credibility as a neutral referee. --------------------------------------------------------------- Also ty @Batavus & @Sir Scarfalot. ❤️

I like this idea because only Chad VIP players deserve as many features as possible, whereas the virgin non-VIP plebs should be reduced to only being able to log in once a day and have minimal control over their nation. That being said, there are probably some people who use a lot of in-game messages for various reasons. I think limiting in-game messages to just 5 is kinda dumb. I think 20 is a better number. Also include a 100 message a day hardcap for all players to prevent the kind of spam we've been seeing lately. Make mass-messages not count towards the limit too.

I'm really surprised here... Alex, you really didn't need to and very much shouldn't have stepped in. Amongst other things already posted, the risk of bad loans is part of the value that player run banking brings to the game. While I personally won't touch banking with a ten foot pole as either a borrower or lender due to that very factor, the risk is still integral to the gameplay experience. To bail out a bank... no matter what the cause of default, let alone one as banal as this, undermines the integrity of and even the fun of the banking game. Does it not? I might be entirely off-base on that, so can a banker corroborate? @MonkeyDLegend? Either way, I agree with the rest of the points made as to why this was a really bad decision. He's one nation and on top of that he'd basically funded your entire everything, honkus. One VIP subscription does not equate to three hundred baseball spammers, many of whom had subscriptions themselves. Do tell your fearless leader to suck it, though.

Mate this is not NPO, this is exactly the MO of GOONS, they do this sort of s**t. I got another one as well,

Anyone else think it’s ironic that the elite bankers are swaying legal decisions in PnW? this is a very accurate political sim.

More layers to nation economy building. I.e. research.

Usually what happens with default loans is the nation's or alliances get hit with nukes until the amount of loan is made up in infra lost. Your method is not welcome nor appreciated because it creates money that normally wouldn't be in the game.

If possible, I think Alex should just disable the ability to add and embed images in messages for non VIP users. Alliances can easily afford VIP for their recruitment bot, but the people attempting to spread vile images will be quickly shut down.

The war has barely ended. Can we hold off on the hegemony talk until I catch a breather from months of abuse and toxicity? Snek needs rest

When you accidentally imply that it's okay for an alliance to go god mode, so you god mode to fix it, but you god mode too hard and have to god mode it back, breaking more stuff.

People talking about precedent here, in this instance don't know how precedent actually works. First, the problem has to be the same. Okay, bank defaulting. Now the context has to be the same, or very close. The context here? 1/3 of the game just left and mass deleted. A third, mind you, who typically ran command economies that were extremely good at leveraging and using debt, and one of these alliances even reportedly took debt it didn't need to keep liquidity of other assets. You're not talking about some tinpot micro defaulting or even disbanding, merging and defaulting, you're talking about 1/3 of the game literally quitting, with whatever wealth they add scattered to who knows where. Again, mind you, very large, command econ alliances, with a reputation for using debt to leverage growth. NPO alone probably had enough out to cover it's liquidity to cripple multiple private institutions if it borrowed them, and this is counting the biggest of those private institutions as the ones being crippled. There's no precedent to even set here. Anyone who lost significant sums because of this and can prove it, should bring it to Alex, and in keeping with what he's said, he should then return half. That's as simple as it gets, no fire and brimstone, no usable precedent unless you think 1/3 of the game will delete again.

@Alex There are two "fair" solutions to this one. You give everyone a bailout who got shafted by NPO/etc. or you give it to nobody. Everything else but these two is bias and favoritism. I have no idea who Seb is investing to next or who not. I have no idea who is profiting most from this bailout. But if you don't like being called out for bias, then don't do things that clearly are biased. The amount of money involved here is no justification as to why one bank should be favored.

Part 1: The Phantom Menace Part 2: The Clone Wars Part 3: Revenge of the Sith

Leader name: Peach Nation name: The Swiss https://politicsandwar.com/inbox/message/id=3861771 They're getting around the ban and keep doing this Also has another nation:

Shifty here with an idea that will have Alex going UwU all the way. Restrict in-games messages to 5 a day for non-VIP players. We use Discord anyway and only VIP members are truly dedicated to the game with more API access and tools, etc. Plebs stay mad and git gud.

Congrats on peace. May you find better allies that don't abandon you after getting caught cheating! They were underserving of your unyielding loyalty.

Capping nukes to one per city.

Planes overpowered: Obviously we should reduce rebuys to 3 days Too many captchas: Let's add them to new messages as well, instead of just preventing new accounts from sending images. Politics and snore too long: Let's set it to the player's local time, so they can cheat and have multiple day changes a day. Need more attack types: Splash attack! Need more projects: We have moon landing, what about sun landing? Edit: Serious response. api v2 would be cool

the sell down wont work if you have improvements, so what is the issue?

Why not restrict new nations from mass messaging instead? Any nation younger than 'x' days should not have the ability to mass message. One on one direct messages will still work.

Disagree entirely, it was very useful for me to sell down quickly. Why would you even suggest this? Did you calc building 700 infra from 1500 and then clicked do it anyway thinking it wouldn't work? ? Tis a useful feature of it, and one has to intentionally shoot themselves in the foot to be inconveniced.

The Lost Year.

A lot of recruitment messages do it and those aren't an issue in my opinion/add a lot to the message. There should be some sort of filter though, if that's possible.

I feel this is too much interference in the game and negatively affects things. Yeah, it sucks, people loaned to NPO/BK/GotG and didn't expect them to mass delete (which was of their own accord). But that's a risk they should have calculated into their loans. And if they placed a bad bet, that's just how it's gotta roll. This level of admin interference into gameplay decisions and consequences is dangerous. What happened with NPO/BK/GoG was a Black Swan Event. Black Swans do happen, and those issuing loans should either take that into account, or if they don't, be left to fail as a lesson to others. The game administration should not be a safety net for that.

100% this - it’s foolish to assume that these nations deleting would be the end of banking. It would suck for Seb, but this is not the solution.

This is a discussion post, and has been moved to the Moderation Support subforum accordingly. As for compensation for defaulted loans, Seb and many others reached out to me asking about that. I made the decision to interfere in this case and re-issue half of the verifiable transactions because NPO & company defaulting on their loans is effectively my fault. Normally, I would not interfere in these cases (and do not intend to in the future.) However, the players that invest in and operate these "banks" add a lot to the community, and I don't want to see them fail because of a moderation action I took. This whole ordeal is a unique and atypical circumstance. I will not bail out future loan defaults. Anyone who had an official loan with NPO, BK, or GotG can reach out to me with specific details of transactions, including loan amounts, dates, payments made, and if I can verify it through in-game records I will refund half of the unpaid amounts. I am not considering any interest owed, only the principals of the loans less payments made.

Hey man, it's gonna be okay. Roq and Leo can't hurt you anymore

I believe this thread has run its course, and so I'm locking it.

Polaris: for real guys there is plenty of room on this doo- Leo: The door is rigged against us! Polaris: no, really, it's fine, look plenty of spa- Leo: I'm off to ruin a different door.