Shiho Nishizumi Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 15 minutes ago, Leftbehind said: I agree that the NPO comparisons need to stop but it doesn't take away the facts that you guys walk an unnecessary fine line. As much as you may want to believe that everyone here is complaining for some political reasons thats not really the case. Many of us are just simply sick of it. The worst part about it is that you guys don't even have the awareness to see how your actions hurts your position. No, I'm fully aware that a bunch of people are chiming in just because there's an opportunity to do so for them. It certainly doesn't need to be politically rooted. If what you're talking about what I think you're talking about; yes, obviously there's a cost to those actions. It's most certainly gauged whether it's worth pursuing or not. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Zed Posted January 26, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted January 26, 2022 9 hours ago, Mayor said: Did you max out your character limit? It was quite an extensive post. Sadly, the character limits were not fully tested by this post. I will add some lorem ipsum in next time if I have filler. 9 hours ago, Cooper_ said: Yeah, Kayser was your bad after his shenanigans in TKR. Can't say there wasn't warning there : P Also, the length of that post was glorious. We had some struggles in recruiting other FA, and Hilmes fit the mold at the time of the project underway. He just did not pan out. As an aside, he disappeared off the face of the planet when he left us, and it is one of my great wishes to know what he was actually thinking and doing when he outed us like that. 8 hours ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said: Shortened For Forum Brevity I do not know what many others in t$ think, but my personal opinion is not that everyone who isn’t t$ should be fought. My own opinion is that narratives and challenges are what matter. Other alliances might think differently, and change what those challenges and narratives are, but the story is what we weave at the end of the day. For example - I cannot think of any real reason to fight Mystery now. In terms of a story or a narrative that is actually compelling, it does not move the needle. I guess we could if we wanted to say we spread the love around, but that is not worth a story. I do not decide our policy, so that may take some of the bite out of the words here, but I felt it worth detailing. Challenges are a better estimation of what an alliance should focus on, but again this is my opinion. Hitting certain metrics, pushing some mechanical boundaries, making major political moves, and the like. I would daresay the primary reason Partisan, Manthrax, and Theo left for their own projects is because they felt that t$ had too much baggage for them to continue on innovating. But new people come in. t$ has the look of a house with a few old pieces of furniture laying in the background that are a bit crusty and rickety (and do not ask what the smell seemingly from the subbasement is), but not all of the faces or things stewarding it in leadership are of the same vintage inside the house. I think W has commented further on what that might imply. There has been a lot of talk over our current strategy with military action, and you do reference that somehow we seem to drag out wars longer than anyone else. There is a disconnect in peoples perceptions of those two statements. I would not think it as some paradox to ponder in ones daily zazen practice, but it is something that bears some pointing out. 7 hours ago, Charles Bolivar said: I read that entire wall of text and did not find the answer to the real question lingering at the back of my mind. Do you have a ute yet? 🤣 You know, a family member of mine joined the Postal Service. Sometimes on rural routes get personal vehicles to drive instead of the familiar looking LLV. Well, I told them to buy a ute because they would not have to swap it over to left-hand-drive, and plus it would be like that El Camino their old man once had. They did! So now on his rural route you will see a ute, delivering the mail, and providing a bogan flavor to a redneck land. It is only a matter of time before I have a similar excuse. 5 hours ago, EliteCanada said: I think Jessica Rabbit would be disappointed in what tS has become and how they have conducted themselves this war and of late. I was in tS for years, albeit inactive for much of it, and I know I am disappointed. I do not believe that this statement even asks the correct question in search of a problem. And at the risk of a lot of unneeded backstory, I will just post some opinions I have about your statement. Back in the day of NPO’s First Time, I was MilCom Exec. We were working on a somewhat condensed timeline then, and Jess got a little overzealous. She more or less shoved me aside and drew up most of our war planning. Now, she did a better job than I probably was going to, but I let her go and did not really say much. Following the war, Roy asked me to step down as MilCom Exec and cede it to Jess, who would take over both MilCom and keep her current Econ position. I acquiesced. But Jess did not yank Sabriel around when she was leading FA. Maybe because we mostly banned her from doing FA in the same way we ban Partisan from IA/Econ, but fact remains. Jess wanted to do so many different things that Sabriel did not want. I replaced Sabriel as FA Exec, and I suggested some ideas. Jess was usually on board with all of them, or she deferred to my judgement. It was a major reversal from before. But I once again deferred to Jess when it came time to open the doors to new outside recruits, and change us from an elite invite-only alliance into a recruiting grouping. I was probably the last person refusing to make that change, and I finally relented. Just as I had very grudgingly allowed t$ to raid for the first time when I was MilCom Exec (before that we generally did not), I allowed the same again. The point is this. Jess saw problems in the game from an economic and military angle. Most of this is mechanical doings. She did not generally always know the best way to play the people side of things, or she was willing to let those Execs in those areas the latitude to play that. When we talked about going paperless, she told me that if I held up my end of the bargain with the FA, and did not do something stupid to get us killed, she would work out the mechanics however she needed. I have no idea what she would think of the state of the game now. If you made me speculate, she would probably be quite happy at a slightly more fluid environment, and she would probably think there were a few problems to solve. I think most of us in t$ miss her very deeply. But I can, very confidently, tell you this: I think she would still be thinking about all of our mechanical issues, and she would trust that our “people” people would drive her in the position where she could best do her thing. And if they somehow couldn’t, well, she would figure out how in the world to make that work anyway. We would know if if she were disappointed, as she could never hide it. I doubt this would be the case. 2 hours ago, Buorhann said: I'm not going to go further into this, as it's in the past, but I will state that Syndicate was aware of it. Or at least certain individuals were. Pretty sure multiple of us warned them what was going on. Hence the rage when you guys still decided to pull that trigger. I think we have well established that Kayser left us very much in the dark with what all he agreed to. There is a zero percentage chance that Sisyphus writes that epic whales thread if he knows for sure. We tried, in good faith, to break IQ because of game balance issues. I think a lot of people will agree that NPO turning on TKR when they did is probably one of the single biggest inflection points in this games history. 2 hours ago, Eschatos said: Y'all wild. Textwalls galore. Humble suggestion. For all those competing for the second sexiest voice in Orbis Academy Awards (I did not want to self-nominate as this would be unfair to everyone else), have them do something already outlined in this thread as their way to help others follow along without having to suffer the ignominy of literacy, and showcase their voice talent. 29 minutes ago, MBaku said: Highlighting the joke of t$ keyboard warriors somehow proving Aleph right, yet everyone wants t$ to reply, but only to reiterate the koan haiku others have pointed out: $yndicate man bad! We will call out on forums! Why they reply back? 1 1 6 Quote In paradisum deducant te Angeli; in tuo adventu suscipiant te martyres, et perducant te in civitatem sanctam Ierusalem.Chorus angelorum te suscipiat, et cüm Lazaro quondam paupere æternam habeas requiem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buorhann Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 27 minutes ago, Zed said: I think we have well established that Kayser left us very much in the dark with what all he agreed to. There is a zero percentage chance that Sisyphus writes that epic whales thread if he knows for sure. We tried, in good faith, to break IQ because of game balance issues. I think a lot of people will agree that NPO turning on TKR when they did is probably one of the single biggest inflection points in this games history. In all honesty, the plan that was shared with me about NPO was a good one. I supported it. I honestly didn't mind a NPO/Syndicate partnership. My problem was when we caught word that NPO was going to turn on TKR after Syndicate hit Guardian/Grumpy, that when info was shared, it was pushed aside for whatever reason ("No NPO won't", "We'll get NPO to stop", "NPO isn't helping BK", "We'll turn on NPO if they do", etc). None of us really cared that Syndicate partnered with NPO, but considering what happened and the outcome, it became very hard to trust Syndicate afterwards. Quote Warrior of Dio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfPCFQfOnLg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katashimon13 Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 (edited) 13 hours ago, Mayor said: I respect Justin as a person ew really? justin is a yeti 😐 6 hours ago, Nokia Rokia said: toxic This game is toxic and is likely to remain toxic no matter the side in this we all have toxic gov and members we are ignoring due to them being friends toxic will* also plz look up some resources nearby 😧 we can help if needed 6 hours ago, Pablo said: kata has always strived to improve and correct the issues we find imagine trying to teach the rest of the game to be better so we can have more fun cant relate >_< 5 hours ago, Buorhann said: So ask yourself this, why do members of the community view Syndicate as toxic and/or their closest comparison is NPO? What's causing that perspective? the community I led was racist and sexist is it cause t$ and pacific actually do math... and then have the audacity to grow? TIL hippo lead kt rawr Edited January 26, 2022 by katashimon13 rawr 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maks Maximmillian Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 15 hours ago, JadenStar10 said: Are you dense? The Echo Chambers must be real, how ironic, calling another alliance toxic and having your own HIGHGOV do what you CRITICIZED T$ FOR. POV: angry poacher boy cares too much about a game 3 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JadenStar10 Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 1 hour ago, Maks Maximmillian said: POV: angry poacher boy cares too much about a game POV: I have no idea how to have proper discourse so I will red herring to something from 1 year ago. 2 Quote Hammer Councillor of The Lost Mines Diety Emeritus of The Immortals, Patres Conscripti (President Emeritus) of the Independent Republic of Orange Nations, Lieutenant Emeritus of Black Skies, Imperator Emeritus of the Valyrian Freehold, Imperator Emeritus of the Divine Phoenix, Prefect Emeritus of Carthago, Regent Emeritus of the New Polar Order, Coal Duke (Imperator Emeritus) of The Coal Mines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Sval Posted January 26, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted January 26, 2022 This thread delivers on so many levels. The twists, the turns, the sheer adventure. It's great to see so many people putting so much passion into it. 7 2 1 Quote <~Sval[OWR]> I am your father.<+Curufinwe> Can confirm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Krampus Posted January 26, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted January 26, 2022 17 hours ago, Zed said: Greetings, friend! I was told somehow that a post on the forums was intriguing. Being a bit elderly and occupied, it took me some time to write up a response. I also wanted to respond to other posts here, so I needed some more time. People wanted walls of text on forums! They will receive. Speaking of forums, it is my opinion that as of this time, among active FA leaders, the two sharpest and most dynamic are WANA and Keegoz, and they are ahead of the peloton. The short answer as to why is that the both of them are some of the few people who have a long enough history doing this, here and elsewhere, to remember a time before NPOLT. That is really some ancient history, mind you, but for many people in leadership now it is not that long ago. A time when things did get conduced on forums, and a time when, in-character at least, things were quite sharper. This is no insult to someone like Ronny. Ronny is certainly sharp enough to know how things operate. I respect Ronny for this; Grumpy is one of the few foreign servers I will entertain being in. There is one difference here with them, however. I will post a few recent comments from the forums here. Clock seems to indicate that they would be a bad matchup for the Grumpy/Guardian axis. The reasons are, more or less, for the same reasons outlined in the other post link. The mechanics of this game are such that dropping from above is usually the way to win at an easier rate, and it seems neither Clock nor Blackwater have the horses in the upper tiers where this matters. So what would Clock do in this 1v1 scenario? After all, the megawhale territory is on much more even ground among Clock and Hollywood. I think you will find that t$ has been remarkably consistent on this point. But… why? Frankly, when you have accomplished what we have over the years, you too might run out of peaks to scale. The G/G axis is strong enough mechanically that they do not have to be experts to use it, but insulting them by using a sporting analogy in saying they “have no bag” is simply false. No one believes that G/G are unskilled bloat merchants. And perhaps, maybe now, we should just decide that we will give this line of work a rest. I recall the goal of The Company, when it was founded, was to have a project that would rival Grumpy. It was to provide an alternative home for whales who wanted a different project and grouping. And it seems that The Company has grown. I think many of us in t$ were quite upset that such a project went off to do an independent thing. It is not the first time t$ has suffered a splinter of high-ranking nations that left us wondering how to regroup in those tiers. Despite the shifting fortunes of The Company and t$ relative to each other, and the differing positions we find ourselves in now, I still do not believe that we feel enough animosity towards you to have a conflict. It has been argued about good intentions regarding peace, and the bilaterally of that negotiation, all over these forums in the past few days. People may lament the state of CBs in this game. Sometimes I do. I do not know why we would have a reason to fight Clock at this time given that sentiment, and unless I am missing something do not see why you would want us either. An astute reader will remember the comment about mini-spheres, and then wonder why I do not seem to have mentioned them all. In fact, I seem to be focusing on only two others besides the one I reside in. Are the other spheres irrelevant? Well if we have active mini-sphere politics, then no. But remember, I have mentioned three prominent FA voices here so far in this thread among active people. But only three. t$ may not have the greatest love affair with several alliances in that grouping, but I imagine we simply do not care at this point to make an effort to come to blows. Even with some of these alliances, notably Ampersand, I imagine we have even made amends over past conflicts. I wish Rose and TFP well, but neither play this game in a fashion that seeks bloodlust, or to always be shaking the political game. This is fine; not everyone needs to do this, and both alliances have built communities in and around them that do put on some good behavior and friendly faces to others out there. If everyone did the same thing, people would feel like things were stale. But without this incessant drive, there just will not be a lot of political intrigue with t$ and those alliances. Again, this is fine in my opinion. Moreover, it really is not even warranted anyway. Yes, t$ has been generally alienated from much of the game between NPOLT and now. Yes, the narratives of the game seem to have not lived up to the hopes that many had following that conflict. What is new about that? Occasionally in real life (oh no, OOC attack), I teach statistical research methods to undergraduate students. One of my favorite examples to refer to is to talk about the department of Geography at the University of North Carolina. Did you know that in the 1980s, geography majors at UNC had a vastly higher salary upon graduation than any other major? $250k in the 1980s! How in the world did this small major have such earnings? Well, the most famous student of the program was a man named Michael Jeffrey Jordan. MJ, for short, is a very well known and famous geographer. In fact, he is a household name - I bet everyone here has heard of him, unlike most geography majors. But there is a catch - Jordan is really the only member of his class to earn a very high salary approaching that average. No one else is close. I bet he discovered something really great in geography, and that is how he made his money! Well friend if you believe that, then you may call me George Strait, because I have oceanfront property in Arizona with a free golden gate if you will buy it (all of my exes do live in Texas though). But when total nation counts say one thing, and the actual scores of those nations say another, basic statistical methods will lead one to some real truth of the matter. I do not need to go further, because the point was made above by others, and again, perhaps we ought to just let it go. t$ and Grumpy collaborate on Green Unity, and together have built the most economically stable color grouping in the game. It is a shame that there are other alliances which parasite off of the work that our alliances do to ensure this economic viability, without doing any of the work to keep and maintain that bonus. Does Clockwater need to be a thing just to fight this G/G axis? It could, but like I mentioned before why bother? People do not seem to like endless repeating war cycles. Both Blackwater and Hollywood have publicly stated on these forums in the past few days they prefer not to fight each other. So let us say that we will take each other at our words. Do I trust Grumpy/Guardian, and TKR? Yes, yes I do. I believe, and will go on public record, that their leaders have integrity to do so. I trust most of this game, in fact. Partisan has come and gone from our halls multiple times. Others have led, and often but not always (no names called out here!) done so capably. People will have different styles and approaches. As someone who has seen t$ nearly die multiple times, I have some perspective on things. WANA, Justin, Shiho, Adam, Theo, and others (I hope they do not hate me for omitting their names), have all done a remarkable job at helping us along. They all came to us with a different worldview, and a new set of talents. I have been very glad to see them all. Why would I not? Statpadding is not what wins coalition wars. Brilliant solo performances are not what win coalition wars. t$ has survived a great many challenges before, and I hope that as long as this game is still worth my time that it will continue to do so. Besides, despite claimed leaks to the contrary, I doubt you will see t$ sue for peace in fewer than ten days because we have not the will to fight a worthy opponent. I do not feel like I need to reiterate, again for those who live under a rock, why malal and t$ do not have the most sterling opinion of each other. I do not feel like I need to point out some of the undefendable things that have emerged from this thread either by some posting here; any reasonably neutral party will see them and call them out for what they are. Will the Court of Thalmor give us as entertaining of a trial as Peoples Court? Video unrelated - clearly not a representation of me: As someone who has been in t$ for awhile, it is my firm (no pun intended) opinion that some of the most recent executives to come through our halls are among the best we have ever had. Shiho and Jess are both superlative military commanders at the height of anything this game has ever seen. Theo and Justin both made major economic victories in this alliance to rival anything from previous eras. WANA is an original founder of t$ who has come back. Greatness still exists here, even by our standards. As for Adam, he unfortunately suffered from the same fate as myself, Chaunce, and Sisyphus (and even Manthrax to some extent) - someone naturally from an IA or adjacent department being pressed into FA work. This is, in part, why we like to joke about Lucas being our next FA Executive; the other part is because we find it amusing to consider the possibility. Even then, Adam was a fine IA executive relative to our standards, and I think he is too hard on himself regarding foreign affairs. After all, I do not think he really did any worse overall than I did during my near year in charge. Obsidian Order, a collaboration between two of our children, was something I took for granted as a stable thing when I came into power doing FA. I had absolutely zero idea that things were as bad as they were over there before their split. It was not good. They made a major drive to the narrative by joining Pacifica to form IQ. I tried to sign VE to ease world tensions, but that was hijacked and eventually we got quite a war. But I noticed that the peace negotiations from that war, at the time, seemed to be a bit nastier than normal. There was some real bad blood. I was told years later that Curu following that had a real hatred for me and t$, because of how that war turned out. I really wish I knew why. I noticed that in the state the game was in at the time, things had become extremely calcified. IQ and their other friends were not going to break apart. The grouping of EMC was also hardened in their resolve. Almost everyone was aligned on one side or another. KT was out in the third space, as were our splinter children Hogwarts and Church of Spaceology, but they did not have the numbers to really pull things apart. I felt personally responsible to do something to try and break this, but I did not have the foggiest idea about what that was. So I decided, with the blessing of Chaunce and Jess, to extract us out. We would be the largest alliance to go paperless in quite some time. Our friends in EMC were pretty shocked at this turn of events. I do not remember what IQ thought, but we never had any real serious dialogue in the time we were paperless, and they never really sought us out. I talked to the other unaligned nations, but nothing really progressed too far and I kept some distance there. That move did the very short-term thing I intended. The sauna that was world politics at the time cooled significantly. Success! But I did not do more about it. I had no idea what I could do! I did not want to look like I was turning my back on EMC, like others did. I did not want to fight IQ again, and I do not have to explain that. What would have happened if I joined a “third sphere”? Well there was a risk there, but I did not take it. I say all this because I believe that much of the perception of t$ now is based on those years as the point of genesis. I believe that I may not have explicitly failed in my time as FA Executive, but I left an impression of an era that felt hollow. When I read the opinions of people here, this is the furthest era they cite as to how they perceive us. That era was under my watch, and it does not appear that the overall perception is very healthy. It is not based on a year like 2015 when we mostly fought defensive undermanned wars. People like to talk about how we only fight “dogpiles”, and forget that much of our old mentality is forged from having to be under the gun for that long. It is part of the shock that haunted me from Git Gud Friday and wanting any way out of the madness. It is not also a perception based on the creation of Treasure Island, Ground Zero, or surviving an 8v1 throw the kitchen sink hit during Git Gud Friday. And even then, Partisan took Hogwarts away from us. Manthrax took Church of Spaceology away from us. Jess nearly led another group away, and I even considered a breakaway; either of those would have probably killed t$ at the time. Theo led The Company away years later, and there have been other splinters still. People have left, and so sometimes have ideas. I outlined earlier that t$ has crested many mountains. Alliances reinvent themselves constantly if they want to survive for years. Guardian is a prime example of an alliance that has done this. t$ has done the same, and repeatedly. We are still doing it to this day. t$ would not be here today without the new ideas and people from the KT/TGH exodus. I also outlined that there is a seeming dearth of narratives in the game currently. From our perspective, both are true. t$ took a major chance with signing Pacifica. We found out that was a bad chance. But what other real chance is there to take right now? This is an alliance that has a particular pride in being innovative and groundbreaking, and we have done that many times over the years. By our standards, I look around the world now and see something relatively flat. If I am being honest, the way things stand now, I see exactly one real powerplay move we could do - maybe a second, but that is a lot harder for me to think about people accepting. Such a move is not my decision to make, as I am not in charge. People in this game are still in a shell from NPOLT regarding behavior. If I made some statement like, t$ has a valid cause to Eternal ZI those people wanting us to disband forever in NPOLT that are still playing, and specifically singling us out compared to many others, well people now would be extremely upset. I remember a bygone era where such an action would have been no problem to levy, and no one would have thought twice about any seeming hypocrisy on our end. But times have changed. I will clarify that t$ does not have intent to do this, but I wanted to put out some rather extreme normative behavior from earlier generations as a hypothetical to talk about community mores. Things have been worse before. I am glad to see that things did improve, at least a bit, in two years. I would like to continue that. If the rest of this community, writ large, would like to have some normalization of relations with t$ for supposed unnormative behavior, I believe that would be welcomed by us. Nexus of late has had a chance to make moves on their own accord, and not always moves we would steer them towards if we truly drove their policy. TKR has already stated on their own that we did not treat them with disdain; I hope that was true during Quack and I can tell you from firsthand experience it was true in an earlier era. I was thrilled to see BK not take their own advice to disband and join Bee Kay when they had a cleaning out, and was glad to have them back as allies. This statement is just patently untrue. The only real time I can remember that we had major problems with an ally was NPO. I do not need to elaborate on that one. Quoted post edited to reflect my true and factual opinion. On a more serious note, Hilmes was an utter and catastrophic failure as our FA Executive. Your tenure was not anywhere in the area of such a disaster, and I personally admire your service to our alliance. @KillzBob I am once again asking for your financial reading support 7 1 Quote Inform Zigbir I have forgotten how to edit the signature field Please remind me how to do it post haste! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Prefonteen Posted January 26, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted January 26, 2022 (edited) If I am understanding you correctly, you seek for ts to take the politics, the vigor and the flavor out of its demeanor. To do so, across the game,would leave an empty husk of ooc meta arguments, fragmented drama about irl politics and general hattery. The void left in the wake of the departure of roleplay and IC drama invites something altogether dumber. Darker. Boring. Is this truly what you wish Orbis? Edited January 26, 2022 by Prefonteen 9 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsecock Posted January 26, 2022 Author Share Posted January 26, 2022 59 minutes ago, Prefonteen said: If I am understanding you correctly, you seek for the to take the politics, the vigor and the flavor out of its demeanor. Maybe actually read it, and then learn to type in English. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prefonteen Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 1 minute ago, Horsecock said: Maybe actually read it, and then learn to type in English. Don't bash my shoddily mobile typed response to you friend. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsecock Posted January 26, 2022 Author Share Posted January 26, 2022 Even my browser agrees with me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avakael Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 I will add something here because I was one of the very, very few then members of t$ who actually wanted it to happen. The Syndicate sought to sign the NPO for the specific goal of shaking up the game and breaking the monotony of fighting the same war over and over- which we had done at least 4 times in a row before Knightfall and risked doing again due to how poor relations were between t$ and BK, for example. If you go back to the roots of t$ membership in the alliances we came from in the prior game, you can actually add yet another 3 or 4 major wars against the NPO (or coalition allies) in a row, going all the way back to 2013. For us, that was a montony well beyond anything this game faces now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bolivar Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Avakael said: I will add something here because I was one of the very, very few then members of t$ who actually wanted it to happen. The Syndicate sought to sign the NPO for the specific goal of shaking up the game and breaking the monotony of fighting the same war over and over- which we had done at least 4 times in a row before Knightfall and risked doing again due to how poor relations were between t$ and BK, for example. If you go back to the roots of t$ membership in the alliances we came from in the prior game, you can actually add yet another 3 or 4 major wars against the NPO (or coalition allies) in a row, going all the way back to 2013. For us, that was a montony well beyond anything this game faces now. We both know the continual state of hostilities between tS and NPO here, and NPO/umbrella in the other game wasn't exactly a voluntary state of affairs and we also both know who was the primary reason for the constant wars against NPO in this realm and umbrella/NPO in the other. Like I've got no issues in criticising tS when required, but I'm not going to hold tS responsible for the era of stagnation which permeated this game when it was being held hostage by Roq's paranoia and holding of grudges ( particularly towards TKR). Edited January 27, 2022 by Charles Bolivar 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Agent W Posted January 27, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted January 27, 2022 Hello Friends, I will start this by acknowledging the time and effort put into this thread and willingness to start a dialogue about how we carried ourselves in the past year. I am a long-time nation sim player, dating back to 2008 in Cybernations. Throughout my time in nation sims, I have taken my fair share of lumps, some of them deservedly so. I count myself fortunate to have played a role, albeit minor, in many alliances in that game, and eventually here. I was a founding member of the Syndicate, but not someone who has always been locked behind its walls. I was also briefly in the Viridian Entente, and notably the Church of Spaceology. During these years, I have had the pleasure to meet some truly wonderful people. Some of them remain, but many were driven out of the game. In my experience, the culprit behind the mass exodus of players in both games has one common denominator, the New Pacific Order. They spent their decade plus long tenure perfecting a toxic brand of politics. One that focuses on domination and destruction, rather than fair play and mutual respect. They forced me to mourn twice. First when they destroyed my CN home of MI6, then when they destroyed my home in CoS. The grief I felt at those losses is still palpable. It is painful to look back and see what was taken from me. After the destruction of CoS by NPO’s hand, and the conclusion of NPOLT with their bans, I wound up back in The Syndicate after being invited to come home by Partisan. I was happy to be back in an alliance I love, an alliance I had helped to found. Later on, I was also blessed with the chance to lead The Syndicate as its FA Executive. From my first day on the job, however, things became complicated and murky. Quack had just dissolved, Hedge Money was militarizing, and The Knights Radiant had remained militarized from The Last Ride. My initial worry as I stepped in, was that war might immediately come to our doorstep. Short and simple, I was dropped feet first into the action. I did my best to quickly evaluate our position, and attempt to ingratiate myself with the people I was now rubbing elbows with. Hollywood would form a day or two later, and fortunately, we were not their target at this time. However, I did immediately take note of Hollywood’s war performance, especially in light of Mystery and Oasis entering on behalf of Rose. The display they put on during that war, the narratives I inherited, and certain comments by members of Hollywood led me to believe that conflict between us was inevitable. Rather than try to swim against the current, I went where I saw it flowing. It was my hope that we could fight this war, and then seek to normalize relations after we both had time to cool off. Throughout the lead up to that war, I never signed a secret treaty, and I am on the record in those conversations as being against such. Things stayed largely the same for us over time, until we were informed by Eclipse that they intended to form a new sphere with Cataclysm. While I do not begrudge them for leaving, it certainly did isolate us from the rest of the game further. As for this current war, Hollywood began militarizing over the weekend, and we cautiously followed suit, while I still held out hope that my diplomatic entreaties had found paydirt. Unfortunately, there still existed bad blood from Brawlywood. I do not begrudge Grumpy for hitting us. We have a long and contentious history, much of it done under the narrative I used against them. I acknowledge we are still suffering from the aftermath of the NPO war. We have treated people with mistrust, we have been too reactionary, and we have become isolated from broader parts of the community. This has caused us to appear cold and uncaring to the outside world, unconcerned at best, apathetic at worst. Some of the criticism leveraged at us throughout, while overstated, has merit. We are an old and proud alliance, with many players who have been together for years, and those wounds have contributed to the apparent disconnect between tS and the community. Our history of exclusivity has made us predisposed to insularity, especially given how we had navigated NPOLT, and the fear of being trampled under NPO’s boots made us weary of a repeat. We decided, perhaps not entirely consciously, to focus on ourselves. This has been unfair to broader Orbis, and under my continued watch as the Chief Global Strategist, no more. It is far past time for the Syndicate to shed the demons of NPOLT, and retake her place in the community. This all being said, I have zero tolerance for those in this community who seek to be intentionally hurtful. Pure spite and abuse should have no place in this game. I was disheartened to see personal attacks directed towards my ally. When toxicity is allowed to thrive, bad things follow. I have seen too many good people be driven out of the game by it. These acts escalate when we, as a community, don’t push back. If we all want to participate equally and derive mutual fun from blowing up pixels, this type of behavior has to end. I hope this gives people something to consider. I know that I will be having that conversation with the Syndicate. -WANA 9 1 18 Quote Former Imperial Officer of Internal Affairs and Emperor of the New Pacific Order, Founder of the Syndicate, Current Chief Global Strategist of the Syndicate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacob Knox Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 (edited) Edit: facepalm I forgot to quote WANA's WoT in this, so just know that's what this is directed at. @Agent W Edited January 27, 2022 by Jacob Knox 1 Quote Federation of Knox Enlightened of Chaos, Event Horizon QA Team and API Team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palps Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 1 minute ago, Jacob Knox said: A simple reaction would suffice you have consistently posted meaningless filler in this thread please shut up and let the adults talk. 2 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insert Name Here Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 On 1/25/2022 at 4:21 PM, Eumirbago said: Another mother!@#$er that does not know what the !@#$ he is talking about. Everyone that has worked with/been an ally of t$, know how the !@#$ we operate. I can tell you this, @Horsecock @Insert Name Here and whoever the !@#$ else made a WoT like this for the past so odd years can only say good things when they operated within our sphere of influence. Things may have gone south, or however the !@#$ it ended. At the end of it all though, business was taken care of and people move on accordingly. You have no say in how good allies operate because we are one of, if not the ONLY, alliance/sphere in this game that is about that action in making sure more, if not all, interests are met. Yep, I still consider t$ one of the most competent alliances in the game. I'm fairly biased because I was there for almost a year but they still have a bunch of quality members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 11 hours ago, Agent W said: ~snip~ Thanks for the write up WANA, I think this touches on some interesting points. I think for one, in the post NPO era there's been a conscious effort to reduce the toxicity and excess in IC RP. This has been more or less adapted by all alliances, but something critical happened to t$ that didn't allow for it to make the shift as well. I wonder if the tension and borderline animosity surrounding people labeling t$ a hegemony in the period after NPOLT isolated you all and has been informing your mindset since. At that time, I was taken aback at how vociferous t$ was, but maybe this is chalked up to your isolation? or people like me misread it because we still had a bad taste in our mouths from your actions and silence in the first half of NPOLT? Regardless, the more I think about it, the more I think I've always taken an issue with the way t$ is playing the politics of outrage right now, but it was the norm in the game for so long that it would have been useless to rage against it. Now, t$ alone is still playing that old game and it's much more stark of a contrast to the game the rest of the world is playing. It's always my belief that IC outrage shouldn't be able to be confused with OOC outrage and that a healthy separation should exist between the two and in this style of play the line is very thin. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Brother Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 On 1/25/2022 at 4:47 PM, namukara said: Another way in which T$ can be compared to the NPO is in regard to the utter contempt it shows for its allies. I think this has been adequately addressed by now however I do hope that the comments made by our actual (and former) allies about our relationships might make you reconsider. On 1/25/2022 at 9:02 PM, Jacob Knox said: So you're retort is admitting to being bad and basically saying "I don't care, because we can do what we want." That is literally some of the worst logic that exists in this world and it's sad to see anyone resort to it. The logic is perfectly sound, I just take a hard line stance against any external interference meant to affect how t$ conducts its foreign affairs. I generally agree with Partisan in this post: Our way of doing politics or doing FA is just more interesting. Taking that away would make the game far more dull, flavorless and uninteresting. If all alliances in the game did politics the same way, trying to be honorable and so on, things would just get boring. We need good guys and bad guys and I think we're far more suited for the role of the bad guy, as I mentioned before. This is my personal point of view and while some in t$ may share it or parts of it, there are clearly plenty of other t$ members who take a more conciliatory tone, as evidenced by this thread. Taking a hard stance against what you might call foreign interference doesn't mean I can't be reasonable. If you find my stance to be morally bad, that I might agree with. However, it's not "bad logic" if your goal is what I outlined above. On 1/25/2022 at 10:03 PM, Zed said: It is not based on a year like 2015 when we mostly fought defensive undermanned wars. People like to talk about how we only fight “dogpiles”, and forget that much of our old mentality is forged from having to be under the gun for that long. It is part of the shock that haunted me from Git Gud Friday and wanting any way out of the madness. It is not also a perception based on the creation of Treasure Island, Ground Zero, or surviving an 8v1 throw the kitchen sink hit during Git Gud Friday. I think this is an important point to make in terms of explaining how our mentality was forged. I remember time and time again having to fight spheres that were larger and more powerful than we were, every time thinking we were going to get hammered. And then, miraculously, we won and kept winning. The feeling at the time from what I recall was one of resignation to anticipated defeat rather than any kind of frustration or annoyance about being "dogpiled". We figured we were going to lose anyway so we might as well give it all we had. So we did, and it turned out to be enough. This is one of the reasons I feel very little sympathy when people say they're getting dogpiled. The other reason is, like Ataxia mentioned in his post, that dogpiles are sometimes necessary in order to win or in order to accomplish the goals of the war. These things are more important than any sense of justice or fairness and I don't think it's unreasonable for us to do what is most beneficial to our alliance. On 1/26/2022 at 1:53 AM, EliteCanada said: I think Jessica Rabbit would be disappointed in what tS has become and how they have conducted themselves this war and of late. I was in tS for years, albeit inactive for much of it, and I know I am disappointed. When was the last time you actually talked to someone who's currently t$ about the state of the alliance? On 1/26/2022 at 4:31 AM, Darth Ataxia said: Beyond its hyperbolic nature, it continues to show that we have yet to recognize the difference between NPO actions that were actually wrong and NPO actions that we just didn’t like. This is a really good and important point. It's important to realize the difference between the two as you outlined above. I would argue that while t$ has certainly done things people don't like (obviously), we have't done anything that is actually wrong. The problem is when people make this comparison they generally seem to be comparing things t$ does that they just don't like with things NPO did that were actually wrong or at least they fail to make the distinction. On 1/26/2022 at 4:31 AM, Darth Ataxia said: If one sees propaganda and spin, it falls on opposing parties to combat it and provide their own propaganda and spin. This is something that has fallen by the wayside in recent years and been replaced by people who are unwilling to engage in this type of FA, to everyone’s general detriment. If your own unwillingness to spit out spin and rhetoric is something you have trouble with, please consult with your doctor. Now of course, t$ can certainly change their rhetoric styles if they so choose from something you consider deplorable to something you may consider to be more happy go lucky or something, but that doesn't negate the fact that they will still be putting out spin or propaganda and pushing view contrary to other people. Another good point and it sort of backs up what I've been saying. We certainly could change our "rhetoric styles" to something different if we wanted to but we're really under no obligation to do so. I agree that it would be to everyone's general detriment and that it's a shame more people don't engage us with their own propaganda and spin. I think we would all be far more entertained if more of us dared to be dastardly. It's not for everyone though and I respect that. Takes all kinds. On 1/26/2022 at 5:38 AM, Buorhann said: So ask yourself this, why do members of the community view Syndicate as toxic and/or their closest comparison is NPO? What's causing that perspective? I think the wrongful use of that comparison has already been talked about plenty. I will only add that I don't think we really need to be concerned about how people who don't know what they're talking about view our alliance when we know the truth of things. Maybe people need to stop listening to people who are simply uninformed or misled. On 1/26/2022 at 7:24 AM, Jacob Knox said: Both sides have their shortcomings—as you surely must admit some of the posts by tS folks here have been less than savory and only further support points asserted by Horsecock et al—but I see some who are genuinely engaging in discussion and major debate, which is an encouraging sign. Well, there you see a dichotomy of t$. Frankly, his points are mostly invalid and the post is unsavory to begin with. It deserved an unsavory response. It's nothing personal, just business. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prefonteen Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 1 hour ago, Hodor said: Thanks for the write up WANA, I think this touches on some interesting points. I think for one, in the post NPO era there's been a conscious effort to reduce the toxicity and excess in IC RP. This has been more or less adapted by all alliances, but something critical happened to t$ that didn't allow for it to make the shift as well. I wonder if the tension and borderline animosity surrounding people labeling t$ a hegemony in the period after NPOLT isolated you all and has been informing your mindset since. At that time, I was taken aback at how vociferous t$ was, but maybe this is chalked up to your isolation? or people like me misread it because we still had a bad taste in our mouths from your actions and silence in the first half of NPOLT? Regardless, the more I think about it, the more I think I've always taken an issue with the way t$ is playing the politics of outrage right now, but it was the norm in the game for so long that it would have been useless to rage against it. Now, t$ alone is still playing that old game and it's much more stark of a contrast to the game the rest of the world is playing. It's always my belief that IC outrage shouldn't be able to be confused with OOC outrage and that a healthy separation should exist between the two and in this style of play the line is very thin. You're correct as to one source of the disconnect between ts and the community at large. The aftermath of npolt alienated ts strongly, and subsequent events reinforced that over time. Another source you touch on imo is philosophy and style. I can't pretend I'm not confused at your preference of non-ic outrage when the only 2 alternatives I've seen over the years have been some pretty nasty ooc stuff, or boredom 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 1 minute ago, Prefonteen said: Another source you touch on imo is philosophy and style. I can't pretend I'm not confused at your preference of non-ic outrage when the only 2 alternatives I've seen over the years have been some pretty nasty ooc stuff, or boredom You misunderstand me. I don't prefer OOC outrage. What I am saying is that IC outrage shouldn't be able to be confused with OOC outrage, and I think it often is. IC outrage can be really entertaining and enriching to the game if done well, but I think too often the veil between IC and OOC is very thin if not non-existent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Prefonteen Posted January 27, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted January 27, 2022 3 minutes ago, Hodor said: You misunderstand me. I don't prefer OOC outrage. What I am saying is that IC outrage shouldn't be able to be confused with OOC outrage, and I think it often is. IC outrage can be really entertaining and enriching to the game if done well, but I think too often the veil between IC and OOC is very thin if not non-existent. I agree with that. Playing around that line myself quite often, it's easy for things to progress south. Even so, as a community I would prefer seeing self regulation in the form of defining that line through IC (roleplay) means, rather than shirking away from it entirely and denouncing anything remotely controversial. My initial point wias not that you prefer OOC outrage- it was that I haven't seen many viable alternatives to IC drama, even if IC drama is a fine line. The alternatives I've seen (as noted above) have not been pretty. If I am to make a choice, i'd still choose my (and/or syndi's) approach to the game. With regards to hostility or alienation, I do think tS and a good few in Orbis are at odds due to animosity which has developed since NPOLT. Having been t$' leader during that period and having seen the internal dynamics of t$, I know where t$' hostility stems from. I also do think I hear the gripes some of you voiced here with regards to said hostility. It's a bit circular as one reinforces the other. With regards to t$' historical play: I do agree that our style was the norm for a long period (even if we were not necessarily the ones to introduce it. We did adopt it and became adept at it. The norms have now changed and yes, t$ is resistant to those norms, both due to the aforementioned alienation, and because we genuinely don't understand the appeal. If I were to pinpoint a few: - Discord diplomacy vs forum discourse - Coalitions of convenience vs treaty warfare (or bloc warfare) - The "Fight for fun" mentality vs political pragmatism - An OOC-centric view vs an IC-centric view and so on, and so forth. I can't say I take all posts in this thread seriously. Some of them (like yours), I do, because I know you to be a consistent actor with a more IC focus. There are also a good few in this thread who are currently eggin WANA and/or t$ when their history is ridden with OOC-related incidents and/or contradictory behavior that goes against the fundamental logic behind their qualms with t$. Those responses are yielding hostile t$ responses. That's something i'd like to differentiate with perhaps disproportionally hostile responses to genuinely intended criticisms. Certainly, from its position, t$ may be guilty of those. But I doubt it's at the scale or as generizable a it appears to be from this thread. 10 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor Adam Posted January 27, 2022 Share Posted January 27, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Hodor said: Thanks for the write up WANA, I think this touches on some interesting points. I think for one, in the post NPO era there's been a conscious effort to reduce the toxicity and excess in IC RP. This has been more or less adapted by all alliances, but something critical happened to t$ that didn't allow for it to make the shift as well. I wonder if the tension and borderline animosity surrounding people labeling t$ a hegemony in the period after NPOLT isolated you all and has been informing your mindset since. At that time, I was taken aback at how vociferous t$ was, but maybe this is chalked up to your isolation? or people like me misread it because we still had a bad taste in our mouths from your actions and silence in the first half of NPOLT? Regardless, the more I think about it, the more I think I've always taken an issue with the way t$ is playing the politics of outrage right now, but it was the norm in the game for so long that it would have been useless to rage against it. Now, t$ alone is still playing that old game and it's much more stark of a contrast to the game the rest of the world is playing. It's always my belief that IC outrage shouldn't be able to be confused with OOC outrage and that a healthy separation should exist between the two and in this style of play the line is very thin. Speaking purely for the timeframe I was gov for t$, a lot of it stemmed from the immediate hegemon claims by certain parties and lead us to feel like we *had* to be defensive. Edited January 27, 2022 by Emperor Adam Mobile forums suck 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Shiho Nishizumi Posted January 27, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted January 27, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, Hodor said: Thanks for the write up WANA, I think this touches on some interesting points. I think for one, in the post NPO era there's been a conscious effort to reduce the toxicity and excess in IC RP. This has been more or less adapted by all alliances, but something critical happened to t$ that didn't allow for it to make the shift as well. I wonder if the tension and borderline animosity surrounding people labeling t$ a hegemony in the period after NPOLT isolated you all and has been informing your mindset since. At that time, I was taken aback at how vociferous t$ was, but maybe this is chalked up to your isolation? or people like me misread it because we still had a bad taste in our mouths from your actions and silence in the first half of NPOLT? I echo Partisan's comments regarding the roots of said alienation. You're also right in that there's been a shift on how public FA operates that's very distinct from pre NPOLT times. One thing that I'd add as for the discrepancy between the way t$ conducts public FA and that of other alliances also likely comes down to the people that have been in charge thereof since the end of NPOLT. I don't think I need to elaborate on Partisan's style. Adam opted on emulating it. W's style is unlike that of Partisan's, but he's nonetheless still a player cut out from a much older piece of cloth than most other FA's currently in the game, and I suspect, and would expect, there is an increasing amount of this new generation of FA who are unfamiliar with this older approach to things, and misunderstandings ensue. That the divergence has, in my opinion, only increased as time has passed also points towards this I think. Elaborating on this trend of reducing toxicity and RP'ing; obviously reducing toxicity is good. But I have to ask if perhaps people haven't oversteered on the inclination to reduce IC RP. The way I see it, it's not so much that it's been reduced, but is really a tad bit absent. Discord discussions and Radio shows have certainly steadily taken a bigger share of the pie, but I think that OWF-based stuff still has a place (in no small part because it's much easier to follow discussions pertaining to specific topics on a forum format as opposed to the high fluidity and ephemerality of Discord. And Radio Shows have issues with availability) which can genuinely enhance the experience pertaining to political affairs, which, at the end of the day, are still half the aspect of this game. Edited January 27, 2022 by Shiho Nishizumi Better readability. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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