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Are we willing to forgive?

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Just now, Abbas Mehdi said:

Good to know. Thanks

You're welcome chief.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Azazel said:

Second is that Camelot was involved for a period of time in a plot to end the war, with the plan being standing up with several other IQ alliances and demanding that IQ end the war. However this was stopped by tCW changing sides and North Point hitting a Camelot protectorate. I think objectively at that point not wanting to aid the people who just hit your protectorate, who refused to pay reasonable reps to de-escalate, is a reasonable thought. In hindsight it was a bad decision, considering the theft of NP bank and Epi’s involvement, however this is wrong and we are correcting our past mistakes with payments to them.

I'm confused, why are you making excuses? Seemingly you're trying to absolve Camelot of this guilt by pinning the accountability on North Point (and tCW???), when in reality it's not our fault that your grudge with us took precedent over upholding your virtues. Ignoring that tCW switching sides was Camelot's prime opportunity to swap and yet chose to remain complicit and ignoring that Epi knew his part in the NP bank theft, and Epi was made fully aware that we (NP) knew too. NP made a poor FA decision for giving IQ the reason they wanted to drag us back into the war, that was our mistake.

Edited by Hime-sama
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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Hime-sama said:

I'm confused, why are you making excuses? Seemingly you're trying to absolve Camelot of this guilt by pinning the accountability on North Point (and tCW???), when in reality it's not  our fault that your grudge with us took precedent over upholding your virtues. Ignoring that tCW switching sides was Camelot's prime opportunity to swap and yet chose to remain complicit and ignoring that Epi knew his part in the NP bank theft, and Epi was made fully aware that we (NP) knew too. NP made a poor FA decision for giving IQ the reason they wanted to drag us back into the war, that was our mistake.

Not the point at all, as i explained this decision was definitely made in error. At the time emotions were heated and a decision we consider a mistake was made, its not sopmthing we can change or fix. I merely added this section to outline what caused us backing out of that agreement, regardless of it being the correct decision or not

 

 

Edited by Azazel
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I don't feel like the OWR-Cam beef is the best way to put Cam in a good light @Abbas Mehdi lol.  That being said, I've known @King Arthur longer and perhaps better than most of you.  I think we had the first embassy with them outside of SCX-sphere (at the time), I've worked closely running a bank for him, and I count him as a friend.  

From all of my experiences with them, I gathered that the war and the war plans CB was not something they were a part of.  It was a situation they were thrown into.  On the other hand, they're a loyal bunch and stuck by their allies for quite a while.  I think they ran out of resources very, very early on, and they still stayed in the war.  Yet as the war continued, it is true that Cam was a moderate actor but that moderation in the face of no influence translated into a lack of results.  IIRC, the biggest fear Cam had was retribution and a lack of protection if they left the war.  They were willing to leave along with TcW and co in that new bloc until things got complicated by the BoC/NP shenanigans.

I don't think its right to absolve them of all guilt, but, at the same time, this is an alliance who tried to be loyal to its allies and protect its community without real the influence or access of IQ mainstays or people like Under and Sphinx.  I can somewhat relate to that struggle even if I don't exactly agree with how they handled it.  And frankly there is a lot more sincerity in Cam's experience than other alliances who left with the tide or simply wanted to hug pixels with the upper tier.  They have their work cut out for them, but I think that was inherent in their treaty with Rose.  A step forward for Cam and for changing the political dynamic.  

To be clear though, I don't think pushing the IQ shtick helps anyone (that's mostly aimed at @Epi who I'm hoping guessing is trolling).  And the SCX raiding policy carbon copy is a bad look as I've expressed privately.  

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6 minutes ago, Azazel said:

Not the point at all, as i explained this decision was definitely made in error. At the time emotions were heated and a decision we consider a mistake was made, its not sopmthing we can change or fix. I merely added this section to outline what caused us backing out of that agreement, regardless of it being the correct decision or not

Yes but people do not want to hear the reasoning (excuses) in what appears to be an apology, it just seems like last-ditch efforts to share or entirely absolve oneself of blame.

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Just now, Hime-sama said:

Yes but people do not want to hear the reasoning (excuses) in what appears to be an apology, it just seems like last-ditch efforts to share or entirely absolve oneself of blame.

I understand where you are coming from for sure, the reason I provided context here is merely for the ability for others to see the mindset and some of the reasoning certain decisions were made. I think context and providing as much information as we can is important to moving forward and making sure mistakes like this are never made again 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Hime-sama said:

Yes but people do not want to hear the reasoning (excuses) in what appears to be an apology, it just seems like last-ditch efforts to share or entirely absolve oneself of blame.

Definitely a mistake in hindsight, but, at the same time, Camelot can't both claim to be powerless to IQs will and also claim it turned on NP and TCW because of some valorous call to a treaty for a dead alliance, the kind that gets protected all too often.

Coalition B logs show us that BK viewed NP as a threat, for whatever reason. BK is the one who hit when Camelot suddenly decided "reasonable reps" were now the damage done to their prot plus everything Dusty had ever withdrawn from BoCs bank (supposedly he did grants via trades so he could recall them in the event of a raid), going from 350m to, I forget the number, it was something insane though, I think 13b? 

Either you were powerless to IQs will and chose to value an already dead alliance of people who, literally (it's why Dusty, their leader, left) could not accept their position and move on, over the one opportunity to get away from Satan himself and draw your sword in him.

Yeah, I was an !@#$, not a very good idea on my part. Very bad idea actually. All true. But the best that could be said of you looking at that, is now remorseful cowards. 

Props on the apology thread, it is at least a good step, even if some (including myself) are a bit wary still.

Edited by Akuryo
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Just now, Sisyphus said:

However, I can't help but drill in a bit here since t$ was explicitly mentioned. It's not like we really made pains to conceal the fact that we had a bone to pick with BK (and Camelot by extension). It was a bit of an open secret. I just think it's pretty obtuse of you to omit the numerous examples of antagonization we were experiencing from BK (directly and by proxy through Camelot). 

 

For sure, however the point here was not to explain the BK pov or drama, but more so of Camelots, while a "open secrete" to most, the validation of information is what had the impact. I personally am not fully aware of the situations that occurred between Cam and T$ and im sure your dislike of Camelot was founded. 

 

3 minutes ago, Sisyphus said:

Call it a self-fulfilling prophecy if you want but don't try to sweep important context under the rug while simultaneously cooking up excuses for your behavior. 

 

Not side sweeping at all, im more than happy to have this open discussion with you 

 

4 minutes ago, Sisyphus said:

And as an aside, that's all water under the bridge as far as I'm concerned anyway. What bothers me the most is what I observed when you were on the winning side of the war (and by you I mean UPN and Camelot mainly, at least as far as alliances still in the game are concerned).

Your lot became drunk on power and acted in obscene and absolutely despicable ways, none of which any of y'all have thoroughly or genuinely addressed in such a way that I would deem truly meets the standard for proper forgiveness beyond sheer benevolence on our part. 

Certainly, we made a lot of mistakes, there is no doubting that. This behavior is something we are trying to correct moving forward and I hope we can prove ourselfs as changed. 

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Posted (edited)

Short post here as I’m at work right now. I will say that as a micro alliance leader who had been in talks with both during this period of time my perspective is a bit different than everyone else’s.

Couple things:

I have only nice things to say to Adrienne, Partisan, Lord Tyrion, Zygon, and especially @Sval during this war. They were always incredibly accommodating during the war (and especially the stretch between December and when the war ended) and were always willing to talk to me and work things out. Of course we (HG) had ended up tying GOONS but that was simply because they were doing FA things that lined up better with what I had wanted.

I do need to clarify that I and ASM had no knowledge about the cheating scandal and GOONS later planning on disbanding. If I am to fault GOONS for one thing during their time in PnW was that they completely left their protectorates at the time out of the loop, and that ended up being fairly damaging long-term in regards to our FA and other things.

What I think people still don’t understand (and perhaps that ties into the forgiveness aspect) was that there definitely comes a certain difficulty in being a outspoken leftist in this game and what GOONS did for me at least (I won’t speak on behalf of the folks in ASM) was provide a space and political unity, both irl and in-game. It was a risk tying them and it pissed off a ton of people and ruined some friendships both for me and ASM gov. It ended up being a risk that didn’t pan out but at the time it was the best option for me moving forward with HG.

I think for those who spoke to me and other GOONS satellites, you’d know we were really only allied to them. For starters, I hated NPO and BK and wanted the war to end as soon as possible along with I’m sure many others on that side. I was shat on all the time on the forums by people in OD leadership (see: PnW academy awards). What I ask though is this. If you have beef with GOONS still, don’t let that influence your thoughts on alliances that were once allied to them. 

anyways idk if any of that made any sense but when im home i can adjust this if need be

Edited by lana
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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Akuryo said:

Definitely a mistake in hindsight, but, at the same time, Camelot can't both claim to be powerless to IQs will and also claim it turned on NP and TCW because of some valorous call to a treaty for a dead alliance, the kind that gets protected all too often.

Coalition B logs show us that BK viewed NP as a threat, for whatever reason. BK is the one who hit when Camelot suddenly decided "reasonable reps" were now the damage done to their prot plus everything Dusty had ever withdrawn from BoCs bank (supposedly he did grants via trades so he could recall them in the event of a raid), going from 350m to, I forget the number, it was something insane though, I think 13b? 

Either you were powerless to IQs will and chose to value an already dead alliance of people who, literally (it's why Dusty, their leader, left) could not accept their position and move on, over the one opportunity to get away from Satan himself and draw your sword in him.

Yeah, I was an !@#$, not a very good idea on my part. Very bad idea actually. All true. But the best that could be said of you looking at that, is now remorseful cowards. 

Props on the apology thread, it is at least a good step, even if some (including myself) are a bit wary still.

While Camelot was powerless to end the war alone, at the time we did choose to support our ally that had already exited the war. In hindsight we shouldn't have allowed that minor skirmish to derail the plan to end the war and should have looked at other ways to end that peacefully 

Edited by Azazel
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Why isn't there an option in the poll to forgive certain things, not forgive others, and take certain things to the grave? It's like I actually have to post to get my message across. I have many grudges, and have forgiven many things. Many more things I have not forgiven, but find futile to discuss with the offending party, and those things just fester and leak out into my gossip slowly in different voice chats (over many years at times).

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Posted (edited)
56 minutes ago, Azazel said:

While Camelot was powerless to end the war alone, at the time we did choose to support our ally that had already exited the war. In hindsight we shouldn't have allowed that minor skirmish to derail the plan to end the war and should have looked at other ways to end that peacefully 

Playboi pls, imagine whitewashing what Camelot was supporting last war lmfao

Do you need a reminder of what you guys were supporting and why "In hindsight, we shouldn't have done that" is not good enough?

Have you seen the logs? It has been confirmed that you guys knew these things and even helped Rose.

I guess Rose was the only one that deserved to stay in the game amirite?

Every alliance has a time in their illustrious histories where they are tested for their values.

I guarantee you that after you guys are rolled that your plan of a "culture shift" will be GREATLY expedited and you are welcome, in advance.

Edited by Eumirbago
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When they all were getting a slice of "duplicate resources and 1000 tax farm" pie, they weren't apologizing then. In fact it was quite the opposite. Now that the cheat farms dried up they wanna beg for forgiveness. Ha, tell it to the guillotine...

tumblr_inline_mmc6mrAtDQ1qz4rgp.gif

 

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5 hours ago, Azazel said:

 

 

Second is that Camelot was involved for a period of time in a plot to end the war, with the plan being standing up with several other IQ alliances and demanding that IQ end the war. However this was stopped by tCW changing sides and North Point hitting a Camelot protectorate. I think objectively at that point not wanting to aid the people who just hit your protectorate, who refused to pay reasonable reps to de-escalate, is a reasonable thought. In hindsight it was a bad decision, considering the theft of NP bank and Epi’s involvement, however this is wrong and we are correcting our past mistakes with payments to them.

 

The Irony of claiming you were part of an internal plot to force the war to end only to start a second theater/separate global war and put that process on hold.   Amazing.   Truly amazing.

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3 hours ago, lana said:

For starters, I hated NPO and BK and wanted the war to end as soon as possible along with I’m sure many others on that side. I was shat on all the time on the forums by people in OD leadership (see: PnW academy awards). What I ask though is this. If you have beef with GOONS still, don’t let that influence your thoughts on alliances that were once allied to them. 

Boo hooo, poor hope! Innocent little baby😢😢😇😇.

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7 hours ago, Thalmor said:

If they were successful in driving me, my friends, and my past and present allies from the game, we wouldn't be around to forgive them. Just a thought.

At least with The Commonwealth, it can be argued that they switched sides and helped to try to make things right. Camelot, UPN, and Acadia should be targetted before TCW (in that order)

Grudges are dumb and there's no utility in them, though. I don't think we should just forgive and forget either. Rose allying up with Camelot so quick was weird. 

Why, would an alliance like Acadia be on the list when the main players are no longer with us? NG, George, Curtis, and so on are all gone. What is left are the people that just want the same thing that we fought for last war. The right to exist. If we fail to turn the other cheek than we are no better that the ones we fought. 

When the war ended and the fallout from the IQ bullshit started to settle I had to make a choice. Move on with my life and play the game or Hate the ones that are left. My choice was easy to make, I moved on and decided to help rebuild a gutted alliance because those members, like me, deserve to play the game and get a clean slate. Like it or not "Rolling" these people will only push more out of the game that had nothing to do with it. It will lock up the idea that they will never get a fair shot and to me that is unacceptable. 

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Posted (edited)

Imagine thinking the plotting for the next war is solely about grievances from the last war and not really just about personal grievances held  within upper gov oligarchial circle jerks?

It always amounts to the same, a few gov members having some personal grievance against the leaders of another alliance and eventually  the members of both alliances having to bear the cost of the aforementioned personal grievance without ever being kept in the loop because lol "opsec, can't show you because  if you saw how petty the issue is you would quit the war."

Far as I am concerned tCW shares as much blame as tS in enabling NPO last war. Sure, tCW fought alongside NPO a lot longer but it was the Syndicate's treaty shenanigans that granted NPO the FA leeway to start the whole thing off in the first place. Syndicate's only saving grace was their incompetence minus the snake who had to come back in and save their asses when NPO naturally betrayed them and forced tS onto the opposing side. That is also forgetting the snake's involvement in the NPO treaty in the first place.

Actually kind of rich even seeing tS criticising commonwealth considering you were tied to NPO for a good portion of the war and only joined our side when IQ attacked your allies in much the same circumstances as when tCW joined our side.

So yeah, if we are going to start analysing the actions of others during the last war to find reason for the next, best not look too hard since we might enjoy what the mirror reveals.

Edited by Thorkell Hardrada
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Klemens Hawicki said:

Forgiveness?

What is the meaning of forgiveness? Do we forget when we forgive? Must the other side also change? I ain’t no priest, so I can’t give any answer.

Here is my thought (and it doesn’t mean too much) but here goes: Excuses and more excuses make it really hard to forgive. The former-IQ wants forgiveness? Fine, then Former-IQ better stop making excuses. Because as of now, all I’m seeing is this:2eNSLKb.png

Which one of tS has the honour of being labelled as comrade Stalin?

Edited by Thorkell Hardrada
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1 hour ago, Leftbehind said:

Why, would an alliance like Acadia be on the list when the main players are no longer with us? NG, George, Curtis, and so on are all gone. What is left are the people that just want the same thing that we fought for last war. The right to exist. If we fail to turn the other cheek than we are no better that the ones we fought. 

When the war ended and the fallout from the IQ bullshit started to settle I had to make a choice. Move on with my life and play the game or Hate the ones that are left. My choice was easy to make, I moved on and decided to help rebuild a gutted alliance because those members, like me, deserve to play the game and get a clean slate. Like it or not "Rolling" these people will only push more out of the game that had nothing to do with it. It will lock up the idea that they will never get a fair shot and to me that is unacceptable. 

Casus Belli: Voluntary affiliation and interaction with UPN

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7 minutes ago, Thorkell Hardrada said:

Which one of tS has the honour of being labelled as comrade Stalin?

Here’s your answer: RZxC597.png

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2 hours ago, Leftbehind said:

Why, would an alliance like Acadia be on the list when the main players are no longer with us? NG, George, Curtis, and so on are all gone. What is left are the people that just want the same thing that we fought for last war. The right to exist. If we fail to turn the other cheek than we are no better that the ones we fought. 

When the war ended and the fallout from the IQ bullshit started to settle I had to make a choice. Move on with my life and play the game or Hate the ones that are left. My choice was easy to make, I moved on and decided to help rebuild a gutted alliance because those members, like me, deserve to play the game and get a clean slate. Like it or not "Rolling" these people will only push more out of the game that had nothing to do with it. It will lock up the idea that they will never get a fair shot and to me that is unacceptable. 

You guys fought on behalf of those 'main players' and thus you did indeed have 'something' to do with it as a result. You are not innocent. I have friends who were playing this time last year who have since disappeared because of what you and your comrades did at the behest of your leaders. 

Don't worry, though. Everyone playing now is better than your leaders. If you are rolled, it will not be intended for you guys to quit. If any of you do quit, then at least all is fair. 

That is not to say I advocate hitting you or anyone else. I am neutral to the idea. I do understand why someone people would use past events as a justification in the present, and I find that acceptable. 

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