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Administration meta interference

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19 minutes ago, Alex said:

This is a discussion post, and has been moved to the Moderation Support subforum accordingly.

As for compensation for defaulted loans, Seb and many others reached out to me asking about that. I made the decision to interfere in this case and re-issue half of the verifiable transactions because NPO & company defaulting on their loans is effectively my fault.

Normally, I would not interfere in these cases (and do not intend to in the future.) However, the players that invest in and operate these "banks" add a lot to the community, and I don't want to see them fail because of a moderation action I took.

This whole ordeal is a unique and atypical circumstance. I will not bail out future loan defaults.

Anyone who had an official loan with NPO, BK, or GotG can reach out to me with specific details of transactions, including loan amounts, dates, payments made, and if I can verify it through in-game records I will refund half of the unpaid amounts. I am not considering any interest owed, only the principals of the loans less payments made.

If, after this discussion, you decide to maintain your current stance on this situation, could you make an ingame announcement?
I believe most bankers have at least some forum presence/or would learn about it, but for fairness it should be something notified ingame as being the current policy. 

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1 minute ago, Dryad said:

Banking strats will always exist. Bailing out Emerald bank isn't saving the banking playstyle but this particular bank.

100% this - it’s foolish to assume that these nations deleting would be the end of banking. It would suck for Seb, but this is not the solution. 

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Guest Elijah Mikaelson

Hello everyone

I as a banker would like to point somethings out,
1) Most banks on avg make 3% to 3.5% weekly on interest, this means if you had loans out for 33.4 weeks you would have made back 100% of what you invested.
2) Most banks who can loan out that size of money have made billions already.
3) The three biggest banks in the Game belonged to Seb who is one of the richest and largest nations in the game, Sphinx who now controls the largest alliance in the game who last year said he made 22 billion from banking, and then the BK bank that was funded mostly by investors to fund BK for years

 

29 minutes ago, Alex said:

My reasoning being that it would be unreasonable to expect him to know that they were cheating (I didn't know, how would he or others know?)

When we give out loans, we do not know if a nation is going to post images that get him ban, we do not know if they have multi's that get them banned, No one knew pooball would get banned when he gave out loans?

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How about this? 

 

 

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I, too, loaned billions to BK and NPO.

Where do I sign up for this free hand out? About 15bil should cover up my poor investment strategy. 

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I feel this is too much interference in the game and negatively affects things.  Yeah, it sucks, people loaned to NPO/BK/GotG and didn't expect them to mass delete (which was of their own accord).  But that's a risk they should have calculated into their loans.  And if they placed a bad bet, that's just how it's gotta roll.  This level of admin interference into gameplay decisions and consequences is dangerous.

What happened with NPO/BK/GoG was a Black Swan Event.  Black Swans do happen, and those issuing loans should either take that into account, or if they don't, be left to fail as a lesson to others.  The game administration should not be a safety net for that.

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When you accidentally imply that it's okay for an alliance to go god mode, so you god mode to fix it, but you god mode too hard and have to god mode it back, breaking more stuff.

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Wow. Seb squirms away again. What an insane amount of administrative privilege. 

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/ would like the 8bn that Green promised me before he was punished for cheating. 

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17 hours ago, Alex said:

This is a discussion post, and has been moved to the Moderation Support subforum accordingly.

As for compensation for defaulted loans, Seb and many others reached out to me asking about that. I made the decision to interfere in this case and re-issue half of the verifiable transactions because NPO & company defaulting on their loans is effectively my fault.

Normally, I would not interfere in these cases (and do not intend to in the future.) However, the players that invest in and operate these "banks" add a lot to the community, and I don't want to see them fail because of a moderation action I took.

This whole ordeal is a unique and atypical circumstance. I will not bail out future loan defaults.

Anyone who had an official loan with NPO, BK, or GotG can reach out to me with specific details of transactions, including loan amounts, dates, payments made, and if I can verify it through in-game records I will refund half of the unpaid amounts. I am not considering any interest owed, only the principals of the loans less payments made.

Usually what happens with default loans is the nation's or alliances get hit with nukes until the amount of loan is made up in infra lost. Your method is not welcome nor appreciated because it creates money that normally wouldn't be in the game.

Edited by Deulos
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1 hour ago, Deulos said:

Usually what happens with default loans is the nation's or alliances get hit with nukes until the amount of loan is made up in infra lost. Your method is not welcome nor appreciated because it creates money that normally wouldn't be in the game.


My old crew and you had a lot of bad blood, but it's telling that you're out here and making it clear that @Alex is full of pig manure despite it being said old crew that ate it and died.

 

40 minutes ago, Bartholomew Roberts said:

Anyone else think it’s ironic that the elite bankers are swaying legal decisions in PnW?

 

this is a very accurate political sim.

Exactly. Alex will bend, break, and rewrite the rules to keep the biggest whales happy and paying.
NPO and their allies' big crime wasn't cheating, or some BS with mangas, it was not paying Alex huge fistfuls of cold hard American cash and trying to make him work on community moderation - including, horror of horrors, pointing out that donators were doing things which were bad for community health.

So, yeah. I'd tell our Fearless Leader to suck it, but I don't think he'd even be able to get that right.

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I'm really surprised here... Alex, you really didn't need to and very much shouldn't have stepped in.

Amongst other things already posted, the risk of bad loans is part of the value that player run banking brings to the game. While I personally won't touch banking with a ten foot pole as either a borrower or lender due to that very factor, the risk is still integral to the gameplay experience. To bail out a bank... no matter what the cause of default, let alone one as banal as this, undermines the integrity of and even the fun of the banking game. Does it not?

I might be entirely off-base on that, so can a banker corroborate? @MonkeyDLegend? Either way, I agree with the rest of the points made as to why this was a really bad decision.

1 hour ago, Neodymium said:


My old crew and you had a lot of bad blood, but it's telling that you're out here and making it clear that @Alex is full of pig manure despite it being said old crew that ate it and died.

 

Exactly. Alex will bend, break, and rewrite the rules to keep the biggest whales happy and paying.
NPO and their allies' big crime wasn't cheating, or some BS with mangas, it was not paying Alex huge fistfuls of cold hard American cash and trying to make him work on community moderation - including, horror of horrors, pointing out that donators were doing things which were bad for community health.

So, yeah. I'd tell our Fearless Leader to suck it, but I don't think he'd even be able to get that right.

He's one nation and on top of that he'd basically funded your entire everything, honkus. One VIP subscription does not equate to three hundred baseball spammers, many of whom had subscriptions themselves.

Do tell your fearless leader to suck it, though.

Edited by Sir Scarfalot
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23 hours ago, Alex said:

This is a discussion post, and has been moved to the Moderation Support subforum accordingly.

As for compensation for defaulted loans, Seb and many others reached out to me asking about that. I made the decision to interfere in this case and re-issue half of the verifiable transactions because NPO & company defaulting on their loans is effectively my fault.

Normally, I would not interfere in these cases (and do not intend to in the future.) However, the players that invest in and operate these "banks" add a lot to the community, and I don't want to see them fail because of a moderation action I took.

This whole ordeal is a unique and atypical circumstance. I will not bail out future loan defaults.

Anyone who had an official loan with NPO, BK, or GotG can reach out to me with specific details of transactions, including loan amounts, dates, payments made, and if I can verify it through in-game records I will refund half of the unpaid amounts. I am not considering any interest owed, only the principals of the loans less payments made.

I do not agree with you. First of all bankers should approach the alliances and their member nations. NPO still exists yet you are repaying a loan on their behalf. Black Knights and Guardians of the Galaxy chose to disband, but many of their members joined other alliances - and yet you pay on their behalf. Why repay a loan on behalf of active alliances and nations ? 

NPO, BK and Guardians of the Galaxy could have easily repaid their loans and their unwillingness to do so is their fault, not yours. This unwillingness and the risk that a nation deletes is a risk banks regularly take. Why shelter these banks from this risk, but not others? Risk management is part of the banking game, every successful banker knows that and knows not to lend out more than they can afford to lose. Even extraordinary risks have to be considered, and if there’s one scenario where it is deemed appropriate to mitigate a loss then that raises an effectively infinite number of questions as to when else it might be appropriate to. Would you return 50% of a loan that was given to an individual player that was banned for cheating? Would you return 50% of a loan that was given to someone that was living in Australia when a meteor annihilated all life on the subcontinent? That’s a moderation headache that can easily be avoided by simply maintaining total neutrality.

The reasoning "However, the players that invest in and operate these "banks" add a lot to the community, and I don't want to see them fail because of a moderation action I took." is flawed. Why only worry about these banks failing in this case? If some banks fail, it just means new ones can join the market and establish themselves, compete and grow. If you support this bank in case of nation deletions, but let others take the loss, you take a side here @Alex. Compensating one bank means denying other banks, sacrificing neutrality and thus damaging the banking community rather than preserving it.

22 hours ago, Alex said:

Of course I didn't tell them to cheat.

I just mean that in the absence of moderation action, they most likely would have repaid the debts owed. This was, in my opinion, an impossible to foresee risk, and the impact could have bankrupted / ended some of these player-run "banks."

As I stated, I think these player run organizations add a lot of value to the game and the community, and I don't want to see them end. Verifying and "bailing out" for 50% of defaulted principals in this extraordinary circumstance is, in my opinion, a way to ensure that they continue to exist (while also not fully insuring them or making banking "risk free.")

Again, he wasn't fully compensated. Only 50% of the losses were compensated.

My reasoning being that it would be unreasonable to expect him to know that they were cheating (I didn't know, how would he or others know?)

As mentioned: NPO, BK and Guardians of the Galaxy could have easily repaid their loans and their unwillingness to do so is their fault, not yours. 

It’s not fair to the banks that didn’t loan to NPO&CO to compensate the banks that did. The risk of default is in no way extraordinary, regardless of the means by which it occurs. Even defaults due to deletion or bans aren’t unheard of, so it’s not fair to consider this a ‘one-time thing’. Consistency counts in moderation, and this action undermines your credibility as a neutral referee.



---------------------------------------------------------------
Also ty @Batavus & @Sir Scarfalot. ❤️

Edited by MonkeyDLegend
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As a former banker... This is ludicrous tbh, wars cuase deletions... Finding a safe zone to loan is part of banking. We all have defaults, nothing should of been done here, BK/npo/gog all deleted on there own, any debts that they deleted with are lost to those people who thought it was safe to loan to them, same as any other client/customer a bank takes on. It's what happened and what will cont. to happen, bad interference imo.

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Ultimately, I get where you're coming from @Alex. You're having a seriously hard time right now, and I'd encourage everyone to keep that in mind and remain patient.

That said, please undo this. It's not helping the banking game, it's if anything hurting it.

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I think the reason behind this was due to the fact that Seb does loan out LOTS of cash/resources to various alliances/players.  Alex also did state that if you are infact a banker or loaner who suffered from this, to contact him and he'll look into it to restore 50% of what you lost.

 

Honestly, I can understand why Alex is doing this.

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1 hour ago, Buorhann said:

I think the reason behind this was due to the fact that Seb does loan out LOTS of cash/resources to various alliances/players.  Alex also did state that if you are infact a banker or loaner who suffered from this, to contact him and he'll look into it to restore 50% of what you lost.

 

Honestly, I can understand why Alex is doing this.

Sure, but not every bank took the same risk. Why should this loss be mitigated when no other losses are? As said above, it's not fair to the banks that didn't loan to NPO/etc. Those banks' risks aren't being mitigated, which is therefore unequal and unfair.

Edited by Sir Scarfalot

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12 minutes ago, Sir Scarfalot said:

Sure, but not every bank took the same risk. Why should this loss be mitigated when no other losses are? As said above, it's not fair to the banks that didn't loan to NPO/etc. Those banks' risks aren't being mitigated, which is therefore unequal and unfair.

This is a unprecedented event.  Alex banned most of NPO's gov that handled their financial decisions.

While yes, NPO did linger around afterwards, I don't think there were any that was really involved with the finances.  Bankers take risks for in-game events, not Admin moderation decision risks.

Other banks NOT loaning out to NPO has absolutely nothing to do with this.

And honestly, 50% is a pretty huge chunk taken out.

------------------

If NPO just straight up refused to pay it back, and Alex bailed out the bankers - that's one thing.

NPO not being able to make the decision to pay it back because most of their gov got banned (As well as most of their bank being deleted due to cheating)...   well, I'm ok with it since only 50% was returned.

Edited by Buorhann

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1 minute ago, Buorhann said:

This is a unprecedented event.  Alex banned most of NPO's gov that handled their financial decisions.

While yes, NPO did linger around afterwards, I don't think there were any that was really involved with the finances.  Bankers take risks for in-game events, not Admin moderation decision risks.

Other banks NOT loaning out to NPO has absolutely nothing to do with this.

And honestly, 50% is a pretty huge chunk taken out.

Deletion and bans are absolutely risks that bankers have to take into consideration when issuing loans. The scale of this event may be unprecedented but the substance of it, a borrower being annihilated by deletion, isn't even uncommon. And while NPO lost pretty much all possible access to their financial decision makers, that doesn't even come close to applying to GoG/BK. They raged out on their own, which again is a very common kind of loss that banks take.

Making this deal leaves other banks that made an objectively better decision behind competitively, which is the very definition of unfair. Now, 50% is a huge chunk in a sense, but on the other hand no competent bank will ever lend out more than they're willing to potentially lose in the first place.

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