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Alex

5/31/2019 - Resource Duplication Bug Fix

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@Alex I want to start with a thank you for making a public acknowledgement of the situation.  I'm extremely frustrated that they're walking away with hardly a flick on the palm, but I do understand a lack of evidence being an issue.

 

That said, I implore you to perhaps not punish the members of Nova, but the alliance itself.  An investigation of the extent they benefited from this will absolutely surely be long, grueling and time consuming, but with such little punishment it's going to be extremely difficult to regain the faith of the userbase.  And I see a future where cheating is sure to increase with people just, recruiting friends to claim lack of accountability.

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While deleting the cities they obtained from the exploit is a good start it still does nothing to punish them. All that does is set them back to where they were before they exploited the game. That is not really a punishment.

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3 minutes ago, Alex said:

I know it happened on a small scale on 4/6, 4/8, 4/14, and 4/16, but like I said, essentially negligible amounts were generated.

Did they not spawn up to 3m in certain resources on all of those days? If not im curious where the rest shown in the bank desposits on those days came from. 

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2 minutes ago, Rosey Song said:

@Alex I want to start with a thank you for making a public acknowledgement of the situation.  I'm extremely frustrated that they're walking away with hardly a flick on the palm, but I do understand a lack of evidence being an issue.

 

That said, I implore you to perhaps not punish the members of Nova, but the alliance itself.  An investigation of the extent they benefited from this will absolutely surely be long, grueling and time consuming, but with such little punishment it's going to be extremely difficult to regain the faith of the userbase.  And I see a future where cheating is sure to increase with people just, recruiting friends to claim lack of accountability.

It's true, and if we only delete what we can be sure of then that ignores every resource that was generated that we're NOT sure of. Nova Riata needs to be gutted, their cities brought down to where they were SEVERAL months ago, and that's just for whoever directly benefitted from the exploit.

Anyone proven to be culpable or even had a clear duty to report the insane resources generated from nowhere (that is to say, the officers) should be removed entirely, forever. And we all know that won't stop them returning under VPNs anyway, so it's not like they're even punishable really. But to take such a weak stance on the issue... that's so much worse. There MUST be REAL punitive action, or everything we aren't aware of is simply gotten away with, and there's no risk whatsoever to cheating in any form.

4 minutes ago, Akuryo said:

Did they not spawn up to 3m in certain resources on all of those days? If not im curious where the rest shown in the bank desposits on those days came from. 

Negligible compared to the amount of resources existing across the entire game, maybe, but millions and millions of resources out of nowhere is far from negligible on an alliance scale.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Dio Brando said:

The rest (in the bank) is to be deleted. Am I wrong in my understanding of the course of action Alex has decided upon?

No, you're not wrong, but considering

47 minutes ago, Curufinwe said:

Considering a comparison based on the numbers you provided earlier...

-snip-

...suggests that you're deleting 86m less resources than they generated, it's not really that much of a hit.  After all, they're still up tens of billions from the resource sales they did conduct before you deleted the leftovers.  In fact, considering you're deleting less then half of what they illegitimately generated,

And

19 minutes ago, Sphinx said:

Which according to your numbers they sold off $86 billion of the $209 billion generated. So that only 8% of their illicit gains removed, They still profited enormously from this scam, but thank you for at least taking the community advice, I hope they receive far more punishment than that though.

And

13 minutes ago, Akuryo said:

It should also be noted noted, Alex, 4/6, 4/8, 4/14 and 4/16 added up are roughly equal to 4/28, so i wouldn't call them minimal.

All suggest this still far from how much NR directly gained through this exploit. If you factor in other things, such as the military damage done by the illegal resources, the extra military used from the illegal cities, the recruitment of new players, etc., it's very far from how much they gained.

Edited by WISD0MTREE

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Just now, WISD0MTREE said:

No, you're not wrong, but considering

And

And

All suggest this still far from how much NR directly gained through this exploit. If you factor in other things, such as the military damage done by the illegal resources, the extra military used from the illegal cities, the recruitment of new players, etc., it's very far from how much they gained.

Correct. I am posting something currently which will express my, and hopefully other players', views in a satisfactory manner.

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Posted (edited)
 
 
 
Quote

It's true, and if we only delete what we can be sure of then that ignores every resource that was generated that we're NOT sure of. Nova Riata needs to be gutted, their cities brought down to where they were SEVERAL months ago, and that's just for whoever directly benefitted from the exploit.
 

Whilst I understand the need for punishment, you've also gotta accept this would be a time-consuming task. I'm sure this game isn't making Alex a millionaire, and I'm unsure as to how much time he would be able to put in between himself and the mods.

 

Punishment is needed, but this seems like it will punish Alex the most through increased workload.

Edited by Machiavelli

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Posted (edited)

If you want some precedence to help guide you here sheeps, back in the early days of PnW, someone was exploiting something generating all kinds of money, and then going to the trade market buying up crazy deals to spread the money around.  One of my VE members received a trade for 1.5 billion, which we reported to you, unfortunately my member was something of a dumb ass and spent a bunch of it, even tho he was not the exploiter, and you reset his nation to 10 cities, from I believe 15-18 cities.  (which now sounds like nothing but at the time he was one of the largest nations in the game.   I would think if the largest nations in NR which have clearly profited from this should at the very least have their cities reset.

Edited by Sweeeeet Ronny D
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3 minutes ago, Dio Brando said:

Correct. I am posting something currently which will express my, and hopefully other players', views in a satisfactory manner.

You seem to be the best one for the job from what I've read. ;)

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Sir Scarfalot said:

It's true, and if we only delete what we can be sure of then that ignores every resource that was generated that we're NOT sure of. Nova Riata needs to be gutted, their cities brought down to where they were SEVERAL months ago, and that's just for whoever directly benefitted from the exploit.

Anyone proven to be culpable or even had a clear duty to report the insane resources generated from nowhere (that is to say, the officers) should be removed entirely, forever. And we all know that won't stop them returning under VPNs anyway, so it's not like they're even punishable really. But to take such a weak stance on the issue... that's so much worse. There MUST be REAL punitive action, or everything we aren't aware of is simply gotten away with, and there's no risk whatsoever to cheating in any form.

So first of all, I disagree, to some degree.  First of all, deleting cities is a precedent that shouldn't be set no matter the situation.  Second, you need to see this from Alex's view.  Common sense is not evidence, and if you tried to argue that to any reputable administrator, they'd laugh you out of their sight.  Hard evidence is all that matters, if there's no admission of guilt and no administrative tools explicitly saying they cheated, individual players can't be directly punished.

However, it's pretty evident that there's immutable evidence that Nova benefitted directly from this exploit, and they were the sole direct benefactors, that, is enough evidence to find out how much, and punish the alliance for it accurately.

Edited by Rosey Song
Improper use of terminology

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47 minutes ago, ReadingChicken said:

Actually, Nova Riata isn't buying the entire coal market. It was a joke some guy made in the Federation- which merged with Nova Riata-, and Sean Eire (leader of the nation 'OLD ERIE and former member of the Federation) decided to take it seriously.

ok then
what about you buy the entire coal market huh

m8, the coal bought was a few billion. You don't have that much cash on your nation to waste on a joke. 
If you do, send me your nation link, zero out your military and wait for me to declare and loot it of you.
Please don't say stupid stuff. You are just making us suspicious of The Federation now-the fact that they wasted a couple billions on a joke when they were merging instead of using it to benefit the alliance as a whole proves Federation knew of the exploit as well but kept quiet

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2 minutes ago, Rosey Song said:

First of all, deleting cities is a precedent that shouldn't be set no matter the situation.

In 2015, Sheepy banned nations for making money from an exploit. He also deleted cities of people who spent exploited money to them, even if they had no knowledge of the money being a result of a cheat. I'm afraid you're 4 years late. ;)

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I get that the smaller members didn't understand where the money came from for their cities, but as has been said many times we can draw this to a logical realistic analogy. If money is stolen in real life, and police track it down, whether or not the individual knew the money they were given was stolen or not, it's recovered.

The ABSOLUTE LEAST that needs to be done, is all resources generated by the exploit removed, and anything generated by use of the illicit resources needs to be removed as well.

IF you don't do this @Alex, you've broken your economy, you've sent a very clear message to the community, and given the green-light for people to attempt to find other exploits or to attempt to recreate the current exploit. As has been pointed out, the "punishment" is a mere 10%'ish of the total amount generated and benefited from the illicit resources.

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Posted (edited)

@Alex this issue you have here is while its a good start (so thank you) but its not enough. 

 

The simple fact is that alot more of Novas cities are obtained using illegal funds, while i get your idea of not screwing the normal player base, what you seem to forget they can leave and join alliances that do not cheat and be built normally. You have players here that work years to get their nations and alliances growing at a decent scale, to have someone like Nova come around and frick it. Sure we can police ourselfs to a extent, but as i say to our members "cities are forever, infra is not" all were able to do is kill any infra they have, thats a small amount compared to what they gained. 

 

I really think any city after the start of this needs to be wiped clean. Then if nova members want their cities back they can join alliances that know how to do econ and build them up, like everyone else.

 

 

Edit: as others said, if millions and millions of raws just started appearing in my alliance bank, id sure as hell investigate it. 

Edited by Pestilence
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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Pestilence said:

@Alex this issue you have here its while its a good start (so thank you) but its not enough.

Sure we can police ourselfs to a extent, but as i say to our members "cities are forever, infra is not" all were able to do is kill any infra they have, thats a small amount compared to what they gained.  

Exactly. By not wiping them, Sheepy is doing them a disservice. Plenty of people are planning on hitting them until they quit because of the cities.

Edited by WISD0MTREE
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1 minute ago, WISD0MTREE said:

Exactly. By not wiping them, Sheepy is doing them a disservice. Plenty of people are planning on hitting them until they quit because of the cities.

@Alexthis is also a good point i did not make, the retention from not deleting them will prob be worse, ive heard a few alliances who are just gonna raid them until people quit, this would be hella unlikly if they got set back to the correct cities

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1 minute ago, Pestilence said:

@Alexthis is also a good point i did not make, the retention from not deleting them will prob be worse, ive heard a few alliances who are just gonna raid them until people quit, this would be hella unlikly if they got set back to the correct cities

We're too late lmao

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Wait. IIRC an old glitch in iOS Minecraft allowed you to duplicate items by getting two players to grab them from a chest at the same time. History repeats itself?

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Posted (edited)

Terradoxia gets a ban wave, Nova Riata just gets resources removed. I am mildly disappointed. 

Edited by Aisling Duval

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@Alex just pick any NR member and look at their trade history. Tons or free resources, its bs.

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2 hours ago, WISD0MTREE said:

In 2015, Sheepy banned nations for making money from an exploit. He also deleted cities of people who spent exploited money to them, even if they had no knowledge of the money being a result of a cheat. I'm afraid you're 4 years late. ;)

Yes, I was made aware of that by an alliance mate shortly after I made the post.  

I was aware of terradoxia, but not the details or the results.  Though I'll be honest and say it's a practice that I believe should be remade into taboo and left that way.

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3 minutes ago, Rosey Song said:

Yes, I was made aware of that by an alliance mate shortly after I made the post.  

I was aware of terradoxia, but not the details or the results.  Though I'll be honest and say it's a practice that I believe should be remade into taboo and left that way.

So you think they should profit from their cheating?

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