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Tl;Dr: House Stark wants $8B or 3x initial investment for their shares in The Foundation, which only has $4.5B in currently available assets. They own 33% shares, and even when accounting for half of OWR's shares, they would only receive $2.2 billion. Carthago has made repeated attempts to compensate them for more than what the current market value is, while being ghosted for months. House Stark has a wall of text of claims - but let me boil their accusations down for you into a few bullet points and give some context: House Stark, OWR, and Carthago were a part of Nexus and invested a few billion each into the bank; HS in particular invested ~$2B The purpose of the “bank” was a basically shared bloc fund, the terms were: ~1-2% interest loans Free rebuilds In other words, the bank was barely profitable and was more of an organized effort by Nexus to grow together At the end of Nexus, House Stark wanted to divest and audaciously claimed that, based on the latest stock price, they are entitled to $8 billion, a staggering 3x return on their investments…. The bank was more of a shared alliance fund that had little profits…. So how would it be worth 3x? See below for attached sheet and explanation of actual valuation (bank has $4.5B in equity and $4.4B in outstanding loans) Carthago felt that the latest stock price is a hilariously bad indicator of how much the bank is actually worth, and offered to reimburse a more reasonable amount of their initial investment along with some future payments when outstanding loans are recovered, but HS either a.) ghosted or b.) said no CTO attempts at reaching a settlement: House Stark misunderstands finances, the true value of The Foundation is much less Latest stock prices are never a reflection of the true value of an investment Let's look to basic finance in the real world: If a company fire sales 50% of their stocks today, the stock market would crash and the individual would get much less than the price they expect: For example, when Tesla’s intrinsic value was low but stock price was stupidly high at $1,200; if Elon wanted to cash out for 50% of Tesla’s stock, he wouldn’t get the price of $1,200 per share, he would end up with a lot less If Elon was forced to liquidate Tesla which had like barely any assets compared to the market cap, he would end up with $12 per share. Now back to PnW, The Foundation itself doesn’t have a valuation of $16 billion (HS claims their 33% shares + half of defunct OWR shares gives them $8 billion) Look at the spreadsheet, when accounting for all gains and losses and excluding outstanding loans, there is currently $4,571,483,510.89 in available equity (much less than $16B) to stakeholders. If HS was to sell their equity rather than accept CTO's offer of $2.6B, they would only get $2,285,741,755.45. So House Stark wants to go down the liquidation route? Ok, the bank has ~$4.5B in available liquidity and $4.4B in outstanding loans In the bull case: Assuming all loans are sold at market value and no one defaults, HS would get half of the amount ($4,523,976,611.26) they feel entitled to In the base case: Loans are sold for cents on the dollar and defaults happen because debtors see a closing bank and make a run, HS would be getting likely ~3B Now, I know when HS reads this post, they're going to say "Ok even though the math checks out, Krampus said he would pay $8B over 8 months". A couple things on the screenshot: Here is the full screenshot context Krampus was in the middle of exam season (as he stressed to Ata multiple times) and did not have time to calculate a clear amount After being spammed multiple times about being paid back based on latest stock price, Krampus gave a spit ball offer. Krampus said "I will get back to you" as in ok he will double check the math, talk to the rest of govt, and finalize the offer when he's free "I will get back to you" in no way implies ok this is final lets all shake hands and ink it. After exams, Krampus noticed a spreadsheet mistake that didn't adjust for defaults (OWR deletion caused a few lost loans), Krampus adjusted the value and noticed that HS would actually lose money in the case of an equity pull out. And if all out liquidation happened, they would still get less than $8B Krampus and Jax then made a few different offers to HS which fell apart, followed by months of ghosting. Multiple attempts to reach out and reconnect on a fairer price were reached (check section on "CTO attempts at reaching a settlement") Relying their entire CB essentially on this one spit ball number threw out during exam season is a very weak claim Final thoughts: This seems to be a massive miscommunication issue of he said she said, but the numbers of TFnd tell the best story, the bank is valued a lot less than HS claims it is worth but CTO is willing to negotiate a settlement as long as it is not an absurd valuation. While I agree Krampus should have communicated more clearly about the exact valuation and how the number was reached, at the same time HS should not have ghosted CTO for the past few months. There were plenty of opportunities for due diligence instead of war. The Foundation Spreadsheet:

How dare you write out a well thought out post instead of rolling over! Now I have to use my brain instead of just thinking CTO man bad.

I think the only reasonable course of action here now is for you to hit both of your allies.

This actually seems like a pretty good response to the CB.

So it sounds like you need to go call your allies to defend you, rather than declare neutrality.

I love how the title of this is Carthago's Guide for Dummies: Finance 101 while giving us a spreadsheet of just how terribly managed their finances were when they approached us with an offer.

Tbh that was a well put together explanation. Anyone that hasnt bothered to read it really should...

Didn’t know we were world police. Interesting news to me. I didn’t know a general member making a comment stood as official stance. Also, you expect me to know you were referring to Guardian when you posted on a House Stark thread? It’s adorable how you continue to sling anti-KT propaganda then slide in our DMs every other month to attempt to see if we would work with you. You can keep trying to bait but this will be the last response you get from me. At least WTF agreed to work with you

To whom it may concern, Consultant Ramona for GO Associates here (on $50m/hr, and best believe that I have marked down 90% of those hours for skiing seshes in the strip club) to audit the accounts of Jim and TheKidMadeIt! (both under account number 203465). On the account of TheKidMadeIt: $210m loaned (confirmed) $50m paid (confirmed) $90m paid (confirmed) $4.2m paid (confirmed) $74.4.... paid (confirmed, numbers are for the diversity hires, i'm a nepo hire, no thanks) Loan confirmed completed. On the account of Jim: $950m loaned (confirmed) $160m paid (confirmed) $700m paid, This is where things get tricky, it appears my own tax avoidance strategy has caught up to me (I moved to Eclipse, uncommon Ramona L move) and it seems that these payments went through tax havens, the records I haven't got access to. I'll assume in good faith that this payment went through (and thus confirmed) as the party related to account number 203465 isn't known for breaching the terms of financial contracts. $125.61m paid, Read above, from reading the sheet I assume that I underpaid by the amount in brackets on the sheet (don't look back in anger yadda yadda). On the account of Madden Red: This name is not associated with account 203465 despite being under that account number, I put this down to a classic dumb admin keying error, god those admins are some dumb, part of the reason while they'll never have my job, other reason being that they don't have rich parents to give them high up jobs. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Unrelated Announcements: We at GO Associates extend our farewells to recently retired consultant MCM after she hit the glass ceiling. I will be working with the lobbying group Farmers Union to ensure farming nations get a fair deal in recent discussions with Game Devs on tackling rampant inflation caused by the low tier. I have also been researching of the behalf of smaller alliances to protect their spies from those who wish to gain kills off of their spies to "stat pad". No, there isn't conflict of interest in this affair. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Feel free to waive my incoming invoice through Accounts, do not send it to Legal.

Tl;Dr shares has always been a terrible way to represent equity in small markets that has a 0% likelihood of being bought out.

If I were carthago, I would be dropping allies in pretty short order. Why have them if they refuse to defend you when attacked.

To whom it might perturb, Paradise asserts disinterest in the Carthago-House Stark disagreement. This controversy is most likely between Carthago and House Stark. We castigate the engagement of tertiary actors. We were not petitioned by either side for arbitration of the affair, nonetheless we will persist in offering our role as a dispassionate diplomat. We can see the war, and we hope for a expeditious and tactful settlement. Signed, Sketchy, Dolphin Anri, Protector of Harmony

Now don't be too harsh... TFP did counter the 2 random raiders who hit Carthago and didn't counter Guardian, which I'm sure will help Carthago immensely. Now is that because TFP are pixel huggers who are petrified of getting rolled? Ofc not, that'd be crazy...

Yeah I was thinking this too. Plus it was over the course of nearly a year? Exam season isn't all year around and if this was supposedly an ongoing thing being handled the fact what is, as borg is increasingly showing, an incredible litany of errors, none of which were spotted over that time...? Yeah no, honestly, this just makes HS's CB better. Im not sure why people think they need to respond. Here I thought people celebrated when incompetence was punished with a whacking, but it seems that only applies to micros and 'alliances' like WTF and Polaris. Even if 8b is still an off figure, well, I guess I'll just consider it the fee for royally fricking up, because those exist in the real world to on top of the initial paddling itself. Good to see an actual CB used for once, thanks for that HS. And props to CTO for trying what I assume was their best for a response, even though I don't think it was very good, public opinion seems to disagree with me right now lol.

I want to really stress that if this were happening irl with a bank and a depositor, you guys would be on the hook so hard lol. This is starting to read a lot like the story of Enron. Even your rebuttal to the CB is full of mistakes, misinformation, or just platitudes appealing for forgiveness citing human error. I want to type up a longer reply but frankly I have no dog in this fight. Suffice to say, this was not the angle I would've personally gone with trying to defend myself. The people commenting that this is good are either skimming or lying.

I love how HS can't accept that human error exists when it comes to math and instead of attempting to reciprocate when informed of said human error they draw the line at the shiny 8B error figure instead then make a power point presentation of 90ish 'points' which insists they exhausted all options.. except actually talking to the current leader of CTO.🙄

Will be interesting to see how HS responds to this. That's assuming they do at all.

I'd also like my money back.

TL;DR Banks are idiotic

First and foremost, I believe it's necessary for us to come together and address the concerns surrounding the usage of ChatGPT or similar AI-based communication tools in the context of ChatGPT. As a proactive step, I propose that we shed light on individuals who employ ChatGPT, with the intention of creating awareness about the potential implications. In addition, KillzBob brings up a valid point that warrants consideration. If we fail to take action and allow the unrestricted use of ChatGPT or similar tools, there is a significant risk that we will deeply regret our inaction in the future. It is crucial for each of us to rise to the occasion, speak up, and advocate for responsible practices. By collectively addressing this issue head-on, we can proactively shape a better path forward, ensuring the long-term integrity and quality of our interactions within the P&W community.

Before I make a few points, allow me to stress that @Darth Revanwill be offering our primary response to this otherwise laughable attempt to justify lying and reneging on your word. Kudos on being willing to post an RoH and attempt to argue back against the claims brought against Carthago. I would hope more alliances take note and follow your lead, albeit with more accuracy. You deserve a second kudos in addition to the first for this appears to be the first RoH that I'm aware of that supports the case of the attacking party rather than disparaging or weakening it. This would be a strong argument had Daveth not followed up two days later to assure us that payments would begin. Additionally the eight billion over eight months offer was the second offer amounting to eight billion. Please see our Statement of Facts points, 45 and 41 respectively. Krampus being in exam season is irrelevant given that he engaged in a meaningful manner and made an offer amounting to eight billion, twice. Exam season does not meet the bar for offer invalidation when these offers occur and then another Carthago member follows up to let us know payments would begin "asap". Thank you for assisting us in proving our first claim against you! "CTO knowingly backed out on the agreement between CTO and HS regarding the 8 billion paid over 8 months that was agreed to on February 8, 2023...." Secondly, this post, in and of itself supports our fourth and fifth claims against you. This is the first time we are seeing any of this information despite asking about it a number of times and certainly the first time we are seeing it since you backed out on the deal that was made. Additionally, as you graciously point out, the bank was mismanaged to such an extent that it apparently lost a ton of capital, all without a peep from the CEO. Assuming that the numbers provided are accurate, this information was also never provided to HS upon request and clearly shows mismanagement at the least. "CTO, through Krampus, has mismanaged The Foundation generally through lack of staff, not updating documents, policies, or channels, not providing systems for Stakeholders to safely and adequately withdraw their investments...." and "CTO has refused to allow other Stakeholders to view bank documents that they have a right to access or would show that CTO has been conducting business in a foul fashion under the excuse that HS was looking to divest from the bank, ignoring the fact that HS had not yet divested from the bank....." Again, thank you for further justifying some of our claims! We claimed our 2.6 mil shares at the last reported share price by the CEO. Krampus made clear in his statements that OWR's shares were not split to HS and CTO but added to the bank capital. Of course, this is just an excuse for CTO to pocket OWR's money and gains. This is claim is just a lie, plain and simple. Please refer to the Statement of Facts. Based on this date, I was with my wife while she was in labor. Apologies on not having Krampus' business acumen to make business deals while otherwise occupied. Had I made a business deal though, I understand that I would be held to it. That brings my limited response here to a close. As mentioned at the beginning, Revan will be responding to the bulk of this OP. Thank you guys again for helping confirm some of our CBs and leaving the remainder unaddressed.

Listening could have worked to when they tried to talk to y'all about it. 😅

Wonder how HS can justify their war now?

This is clearly a different story as TFP is in between two M-levels as opposed to outright not honoring an M-level held by one side. I didn’t know I’d need to explain that, but….

Yes, we humans are prone to errors. Two wrongs cannot make a right. I will advise HS to reconsider and take what have to be offered to them now. The Orbis Peace Organization(OPO) will want both side to end hostility.

Good catch, I must have misclicked while getting this in by DC. I have adjusted the equation. It had an overall small impact on the numbers - and brings HS to an equity value of $2.5B. Still far under their valuation of $8B. I corrected the ID using old logs, hopefully this helps.

So you agree FOUNDATION is a scam bank. Good good.

Florida is too scary for us 😭. I'd ask daddy Rose to come hold our hand but I don't think they'll help this time.

What is it now, a Global War 30?

I have had my revenge! 🤣

What happened to all those HoNoR thY TrEaTy people?

I hate you

TLDR; The Coven changes things for clarity and aims to better game relations. This post is only to act as a reference for future public interactions. Thank you to the leaders and alliance heads that have spoken to me over the past 2 weeks offering me their advice. The Coven has discussed your suggestions and we've decided to implement some as a means to help clarify, delegate and better support our allies. The purpose of this post is to be transparent about these changes and to act as a reference to avoid any miscommunications. Foreign Affairs 1.) The Coven will be conducting FA in embassies ONLY. This not only applies to standard treaty requests/issue with counters etc. but also applies to War Week discussions, Protectorate requests and Vassal Assistance (please see #3). Any discussions in DMs will NOT be seen as official FA business. Different alliances use and see DMs differently. As such a discussion with Alliance A using "foul language" could be seen as threatening or aggressive to Alliance B. By only having these discussions in a space with multiple insights we aim to avoid having these perceptions roll out of hand into an issue or FA debacle. 2.) The Coven's FA team has been split into a Macro and Micro FA team. The Macro FA team does not have a say in Micro Affair discussions and the Micro FA team does not have a say in Macro Affair discussions. Once again this is because different alliance require different approaches to foreign affairs. As such the more "temperamental" government won't cause any issues or scenes with top alliances. 3.) We'll be changing our Protectorate Program, "The Circle", to have protectorates and vassals. Protectorates are alliances that no longer need hands on oversight from The Coven and are free to manage relations with others and handle their own affairs. Vassals are alliances that either have fresh leaders or inadequate government and will have required oversight to better protect their membership. We're committing to this change as some of our former protectorates thought we were "overbearing" while others had little knowledge of our resources except for our countering ability. We hope this distinction will help future allies understand our involvement with them beforehand rather than an appearance of "overlord" later down the road. Military Affairs 1.) The Coven is removing it's policy of countering spy-operations that target to gather intelligence or assassinate spies. Spy operations that targets infra or military will still be seen as an attack on the member nation. If a nation is caught spy-wiping or gathering intelligence we hope that the host alliance take charge and punish the member. The hope is to move away from the idea of an overly aggressive alliance where we act as judge jury and executioner. 2.) The Coven will begin to accept requests from raiders to hit inactive applicants (1 month+ inactivity). If a raider hits an applicant without requesting first regardless of activity they are subject to being countered. The Aurora conflict started because Borealis members complained and spammed us for being countered after hitting an inactive applicant. We hope that the implementation of this new rule will avoid those issues with other alliances. For questions or more information please feel free to join our FA server and make a ticket. I apologize in advance to those coming here only to complain. o/ The Coven

So, your plan is to resort to general apathy in the hopes that these alliances have the good will to "punish" their own members? Seems a bit of a silly approach to me and announcing it to the world is just going to invite more negative consequences to your members in the area of espionage as well as making yourself less useful as an ally come wartime.

Smh this is clearly an 11 month conspiracy, House Stark knew Diablo 4 was about to be released and they planned this 11 months ago to distract and steal my time away from playing so they could get ahead in killing Diablo.😭

You guys have time to honor the cancellation clause of the ODP. This was a great post by the way. Well done, Ataxia. I absolutely understand how dealing with Daveth can be and honestly it's impressive you guys managed to hold off war for almost a year.

k, but did you really need guardian and your protectorates to beat an unmilled party when you are at 90% militarization ?

kinda weird seeing two former allies fighting over my money ._.

Now I could be wrong, this is a long shot, a real wild theory you might say, but I think they just did that, literally in the post, right above. Hope this helped.

>legacy Thats too much of a compliment.

Why adding projects won't fix resource inflation in the long-term/isn't the best way to combat this resource inflation: I'm not gonna bother tagging everyone who was suggesting that game devs should just add more projects, I don't really care. Disclaimer: I am a Goober shill. 1. For most novelty projects people may be inclined to buy it at first, but as the weeks/months/years pass people will stop thinking about buying it. For e.g. Moon Landing, 32 people bought it in 2020 and 40 people have bought it in the last 2.5 years since. A ton of people would have to buy a project at a consistent rate over a couple years to control inflation through this "project measure". 2. Most people/alliance governments' first questions on a new project is "Is this a good investment? What advantage will this give? What is the ROI?", I believe the answers to these questions have the biggest impact on whether a project will be bought, i.e, will the project be a Clinical Research Centre or a Military Salvage? Onto my point, the ROI amount would effectively be setting the a PPU at which the project would be a buy or not a buy. Ignore this point if you are imagining a purely novelty project and proceed to 3. 3. Project slots, honestly if project slots were purchasable they could fetch more than the project itself is worth, just a comment on the value of project slots (you can actually purchase a project slot, so there is an actual price of a project slot). Like 99% of players won't build a novelty project to sacrifice growth. Especially if the price of the project is high (Like $200m+). There are about 13 projects (imho) that are must/should buys (yes of course spy sat is on the list, no it is not up for debate) the amount of slots needed to get these 13 is equal to a c25 with 2.5k infra each city or about 1500 nations above this threshold. In a game with like 6000 nations in alliances would 25% of the nations buy enough novelty projects to make sure inflation get out of hand? I doubt it. 4. I mentioned in 1. that only 72 people have bought Moon Landing (PnW's only/most important novelty projects), I will be fair and say some people who have bought it have deleted, so i'll say 100 have bought it ever. But yes, only 72 people have bought Moon Landing. And I don't believe people are just waiting for the right novelty project to purchase. And of these 72 nations most of them have a lot of cities, just scroll through the list and you will see some of the biggest nations in the game. Most of the time, only bigger nations are willing to build novelty/meme projects. 5. Compared to other measures for fighting this inflation problem, most of the ones that are being considered are measurable to see their future impact (for e.g. increasing food consumption). How would the consumption of resources by project purchasing be controlled in order to control inflation, as the main goal of the initiatives to cause deflation of resources is to also imho to control it to bring it down to a reasonable level. If there is a way to achieve control, I would genuinely be open to hear it. But I think the reality shown in 1 would kill any sort of control. The only way I can see it being controlled is if values relating to the project and adjusted per week, in which look at 5. 5. This may work for other games/MMOs but as i've explained, it wouldn't work for PnW. Also given PnW's current state, I doubt the game devs would be willing to put a lot of time into the game, esp for making and tinkering with novelty projects. I'm sure some dork could pull some voodoo API to show the DGAF about growth API stats in some very impressive Desmos chart. Feel more than free to do so. My accreditations: I'm #25 on spies killed leaderboard.

I think Polaris and World Task Force are two pretty good examples of alliances that are old and have a legacy behind them, yet they've always been pretty bad and have pretty consistently remained that way to this day. I also think they lack the mechanisms to improve, but because of their community, they're not going to disband and will just stay stuck as NPC alliances forever basically.

Probably Arrgh because they raid everyone. No matter your status.

Easy fix: Just uncap commerce and remove commerce buildings limit.

the immortals LOL

You clearly don’t know very many women