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Global War Peace Terms - Discussion


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12 minutes ago, The Mad Titan said:

Ah yes, like the white peace/just admission of defeat TGH/KT got. 

So edgy. Glad we beat you so bad the salt is still there.

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[11:52 PM] Prefontaine: But Keegoz is actually bad. [11:52 PM] Prefontaine: He's my favorite bad leader though.

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7 minutes ago, Keegoz said:

So edgy. Glad we beat you so bad the salt is still there.

I was actually referring to TKR and you guys...

You should purge those inactives though you’re looking a little fat. 

Edited by The Mad Titan
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@PrefontaineIt's been well known that Adrienne had long-since ceased giving a shit about peace months ago, so i'm honestly not surprised TKR would be the on holding things back. 

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1 minute ago, Akuryo said:

@PrefontaineIt's been well known that Adrienne had long-since ceased giving a shit about peace months ago, so i'm honestly not surprised TKR would be the on holding things back. 

Well pretty soon they’ll be the only one in their coalition in the top 50. Such great allies. 

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14 hours ago, Azaghul said:

(OOC)

This is why I'm almost always in favor of settling things with white peace or just an admission of defeat.  Terms usually lead to standoffs where the terms themselves aren't really significant or a major issue, but neither side wants to back down because they'd lose face.  It extends wars well past the point where it is fun for most people and ends up driving players from the game who get sick of it.  As someone who has been on both sides, it is tedious for both sides.  For the first year or two of this game white peace/admissions of defeat were generally the norm, we should go back to that.  Shorter, more frequent wars are a lot more fun and interesting.

(/OOC)

 

Saving this for the next time TKR demands or is in a coalition that demands anything other than white peace/surrender.

Edited by Shadowthrone
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At some point, though, they'll run out of money. TKR takes 250mn of damage daily, Grumpy 50 million, Guardian 150mn, and TCW 50mn. That's 500mn of damage daily to core alliances, or that every 30 days, 15 bn is destroyed. The total rebuilding cost for 5000 cities to 2k infra is 100 bn.  To 1.5k infra is 30 bn.

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1 minute ago, A Boy Named Crow said:

At some point, though, they'll run out of money. TKR takes 250mn of damage daily, Grumpy 50 million, Guardian 150mn, and TCW 50mn. That's 500mn of damage daily to core alliances, or that every 30 days, 15 bn is destroyed. The total rebuilding cost for 5000 cities to 2k infra is 100 bn.  To 1.5k infra is 30 bn.

Not if the NPO and BK run out of money first ;) 

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1 hour ago, The Mad Titan said:

I was actually referring to TKR and you guys...

You should purge those inactives though you’re looking a little fat. 

My bad thought you were referencing ac and the NAP.

They serve their purpose ?

[11:52 PM] Prefontaine: But Keegoz is actually bad. [11:52 PM] Prefontaine: He's my favorite bad leader though.

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Before you guys start throwing blame around, maybe you should ask the question if they’re ok with the situation they are in.

While they may look broken, this game is built to where you can build just enough and still be effective in fighting on the cheap.

The days of pinning nations down is long gone.

1 hour ago, A Boy Named Crow said:

At some point, though, they'll run out of money. TKR takes 250mn of damage daily, Grumpy 50 million, Guardian 150mn, and TCW 50mn. That's 500mn of damage daily to core alliances, or that every 30 days, 15 bn is destroyed. The total rebuilding cost for 5000 cities to 2k infra is 100 bn.  To 1.5k infra is 30 bn.

You have to keep in mind that most of those alliances have sat on their hands for over a year without any major conflict.

They can afford this.

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2 hours ago, Shadowthrone said:

 

Saving this for the next time TKR demands or is in a coalition that demands anything other than white peace/surrender.

(OOC)

Please do.

I've consistently pushed this view within TKR and while I am only one non-FA voice on the matter, I know there are others that share my view on it.  As far as I know, TKR usually, if not always, doesn't ask for any terms when the coalition it is in is putting together a list of terms to give to the other side.   More often, we've stood by allies who wanted to demand terms, rather than fracture the coalition with a separate peace or burn lots of political capital trying to get them to drop their demands.  But that is not the same as being one of the parties within a winning coalition pushing to impose terms.

There's a reason I labeled this OOC.   This isn't meant to be partisan or a dig at IQ, but something I would say to all players of the game about future wars.  I've had the exact same thoughts about previous wars where TKR was on the other side.

It's actually not even really about this war because the genie is already out of the bottle.  The winning side has asked for terms and that can't be rescinded as if they were never asked.  It's already at that point where the terms themselves aren't really what people care about, but pride and saving face.  My point is that from a OOC perspective these kind of standsoffs aren't fun for most people involved and are bad for the game.  In an ideal world, we'd avoid them entirely because we would go back to the norm of winning coalitions not asking for anything except maybe an admission of defeat.

(/OOC)

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3 hours ago, The Mad Titan said:

I was actually referring to TKR and you guys...

You should purge those inactives though you’re looking a little fat. 

Not as fat as your and IQ's ego now that you've managed to win a dog-pile with the help of skilled, capable fighters(Sydni, TEst, CoS).

 

1491756811336 

Edited by Justin076
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Chief Financial Officer of The Syndicate

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5 hours ago, Prefontaine said:

 

You can blame TKR-side leadership for a lot of the slow down. There's been a plethora of times where there has been no activity in the peace talks channel for weeks at a time. They've also accepted terms, and then gone back and said no they don't accept those terms without anything changing from there. It's been made clear several times that the terms are not going to be removed, and the things which have held up talks the most are effing ridiculous. Protecting the "honor" of VM-ers because you're such a delicate pile of garbage that you don't like them being labeled as "war dodgers" and want to protect their VM-protected infra while sacrificing rebuild time/resources of hundreds. Wanting to keep your trade bot active and still requiring art for to return trades because of "tradition" is a bad joke. If TKR was not in these peace talks I'm confident the war would have ended at least a month ago, if not 2.

 

The fault for all of this rests on Adrienne. You're largely inactive in peace talks. Days and weeks go by without you making further effort. You cling to trying to protect your trash while doing disservice to the rest of the members. You're alliance has never really lost before, and are apparently incompetent as to how it works. As someone who has played these shit games for way too long, there are no harsh terms in the original surrender. Honestly the GoB one was the harshest of them, but even the child like reasoning skills of SRD were able to find a solution working with Ripper. But not Adrienne, you god damn dumpster fire of a leader. Step down. Give someone else the charge, you have 97 other members one of them is bound to have a brain because you sure as shit do not. 

 

To Justin's point you can assign blame to either side, and while I might be biased some there lies a major issue. This is IQ's first time winning, really. Lets say they flinch and give in to white peace after making such a point about terms, it shows anyone can just stick it out if they really don't want the terms. You  can claim the same is TKR's side can be shown to give in to terms, but that's a part of losing. There was a hiccup in the TEst-Guardian term where we wanted them to write a couple paragraphs about something deity-flavored, they decided they didn't want to do the cosmetic/joke sort of term so we offered them 5B to get out of it or they could present a counter option in flavor with what was originally there. They simply chose to go with the original term. But that shows how quickly some of the speed bumps and stops can be resolved. Honestly it could have been done in a day or twos time should leadership been more active about it. 

 

tl;dr Yes it's stupid things have gone on this long. The fault largely rests with TKR. I hope their allies leave them to burn in the trash heap they've left them to burn in for extra months. 

You also forgot that time where everyone agreed to a scheduled peace talk meeting and TKR decided to ghost ?

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3 hours ago, Azaghul said:

(OOC)

Please do.

I've consistently pushed this view within TKR and while I am only one non-FA voice on the matter, I know there are others that share my view on it.  As far as I know, TKR usually, if not always, doesn't ask for any terms when the coalition it is in is putting together a list of terms to give to the other side.   More often, we've stood by allies who wanted to demand terms, rather than fracture the coalition with a separate peace or burn lots of political capital trying to get them to drop their demands.  But that is not the same as being one of the parties within a winning coalition pushing to impose terms.

There's a reason I labeled this OOC.   This isn't meant to be partisan or a dig at IQ, but something I would say to all players of the game about future wars.  I've had the exact same thoughts about previous wars where TKR was on the other side.

It's actually not even really about this war because the genie is already out of the bottle.  The winning side has asked for terms and that can't be rescinded as if they were never asked.  It's already at that point where the terms themselves aren't really what people care about, but pride and saving face.  My point is that from a OOC perspective these kind of standsoffs aren't fun for most people involved and are bad for the game.  In an ideal world, we'd avoid them entirely because we would go back to the norm of winning coalitions not asking for anything except maybe an admission of defeat.

(/OOC)

Pride is worthless and so is honor. Take all your whiny garbage about that utter bullshit and shove it. 

Honor especially just turns a competent leader into an asshat in seconds. Time for you to catch up on what the rest of the game learned long ago.

Drama is good and so are the salted wounds screaming for revenge. Even your pathetic honor can't hold out on that forever. It will succumb, every sinner has a past, be it more sin or sainthood.

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6 hours ago, A Boy Named Crow said:

At some point, though, they'll run out of money. TKR takes 250mn of damage daily, Grumpy 50 million, Guardian 150mn, and TCW 50mn. That's 500mn of damage daily to core alliances, or that every 30 days, 15 bn is destroyed. The total rebuilding cost for 5000 cities to 2k infra is 100 bn.  To 1.5k infra is 30 bn.

Judging by the fact most of TKR and allies are beiged at once from what I've seen. You give them like 6-10 days of sitting in beige. That's like 5-9 million dollars if you take into account the daily bonus, plus whatever revenue they make. I'm sure they can rebuild back up to 900 or so. 

I'm not saying that this covers their damage. But it reduces it by a decent margin. 

 

Also, who cares if they run out of money, they're taking this path. Let them burn their cash. You should be happy with continuing to increase your stats, even if it's not by much.

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1 minute ago, Zyphy said:

Judging by the fact most of TKR and allies are beiged at once from what I've seen. You give them like 6-10 days of sitting in beige. That's like 5-9 million dollars if you take into account the daily bonus, plus whatever revenue they make. I'm sure they can rebuild back up to 900 or so. 

I'm not saying that this covers their damage. But it reduces it by a decent margin. 

 

Also, who cares if they run out of money, they're taking this path. Let them burn their cash. You should be happy with continuing to increase your stats, even if it's not by much.

Alot of them have and make no money, actually, on account of 150 or less average infra for weeks.

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4 minutes ago, Akuryo said:

Pride is worthless and so is honor. Take all your whiny garbage about that utter bullshit and shove it. 

Honor especially just turns a competent leader into an asshat in seconds. Time for you to catch up on what the rest of the game learned long ago.

Drama is good and so are the salted wounds screaming for revenge. Even your pathetic honor can't hold out on that forever. It will succumb, every sinner has a past, be it more sin or sainthood.

If you think my post was talking about my personal/honor pride you completely missed the point of my post.  For better or for worse people egos are going to play into this which is why in this world and in other worlds we see peace negotiations stretch out for weeks/months.

Drama is good but do you know what else is good?  Having major wars more often than every 6 months to a year.  More wars = more drama.  Long drawn out wars = the same stale shit.

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6 minutes ago, Akuryo said:

Alot of them have and make no money, actually, on account of 150 or less average infra for weeks.

I don't think you understood what I meant. 

SyndaIQ are just mass beiging, they're not doing it slowly and therefore giving them time to build back to 800-900 infa.

The beige bonus is 600 thousand iirc? Add onto it 300k from the daily bonus and the 192k from their color trade bloc. That gives them around 1m a day. 

(I forgot about color trade bloc, sorry)

I'm just saying that with IQ and Synda beiging them quickly, it's giving them time to build at least a bit. And also reducing their cost. In essence increasing the amount of time they could be at war for. By no means am I saying that this covers all expenses, just pointing this out because it is being overlooked. Regardless of how small the income from this is, it's surely better than the zero that could be had if you guys took your time to coordinate bieges. 

Edited by Zyphy
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9 minutes ago, Azaghul said:

If you think my post was talking about my personal/honor pride you completely missed the point of my post.  For better or for worse people egos are going to play into this which is why in this world and in other worlds we see peace negotiations stretch out for weeks/months.

Drama is good but do you know what else is good?  Having major wars more often than every 6 months to a year.  More wars = more drama.  Long drawn out wars = the same stale shit.

The point of your post was whiny garbage about how TKR was all nice and merciful. Sounds like your alliances typical honor bullshit, so I repeat: shove it.

Especially since it's verifiably false given the reasons you're being rolled right now are primarily for the little white sins you committed.

Global wars about 6 months apart is normal isn't it? What's abnormal is having an opponent that's such a whiny full-of-themselves !@#$ that they won't just accept they've lost and move on for 4 months.

You may not have demanded reparations or terms in prior wars, and stood by the Allie's who did, but the irony of doing that is that you became complicit and supportive of those terms. The irony is; you would've done better for your philosophical view by spending the political capital and taking a stand.

 

Better to spend it on that than another DDR/69DW shitstorm. People *MIGHT* respect you for the former, at least. 

Congratulations, you can't even follow your own rules that well. You played yourself. Now stop choking the entire goddamn game for months because it makes you sad your enemies don't have your sense of honor. A snubbed hero turned to the dark side is far more fascinating anyway.

So quit the philosophy rambling, you don't even follow it yourselves very well and no one else is buying in.

8 minutes ago, Zyphy said:

I don't think you understood what I meant. 

SyndaIQ are just mass beiging, they're not doing it slowly and therefore giving them time to build back to 800-900 infa.

The beige bonus is 600 thousand iirc? Add onto it 300k from the daily bonus and the 192k from their color trade bloc. That gives them around 1m a day. 

(I forgot about color trade bloc, sorry)

I'm just saying that with IQ and Synda beiging them quickly, it's giving them time to build at least a bit. And also reducing their cost. In essence increasing the amount of time they could be at war for. By no means am I saying that this covers all expenses, just pointing this out because it is being overlooked. Regardless of how small the income from this is, it's surely better than the zero that could be had if you guys took your time to coordinate bieges. 

Doesn't help when they've got no infra and can't afford to repair it to much of anything. I'm talking about people I personally know, and you can't repair 20 cities to... Much of anything with the cash stack your mentioning. 

Edited by Akuryo
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-The point is, when TKR-sphere runs out of money, they will be materially incapable of continuing the war. I've been criticizing SynDIQ for not doing blockade chains. But the way they're beiging TKR-sphere seems to be focused on increasing the physical damage instead of the morale damage, so there's logic in that.

 

-I'll point out that there's about 300bn damage minus 50bn loot damage already dealt, so about 250bn of TKR-sphere's gigantic warchests already blew up. I can see upper 11 digits remaining, but I don't see the need for "residual" warchests after terms are acceded to as being excessive.

 

-Another thing to mention is, for players of other games, the long duration of war is not something people are unaccustomed to. I remember having once spent 3 months getting up every update to file in attacks.

 

-Lastly, a lot of people are blaming TKR intransigence for this war, but I think they're mistaken. The fact of the matter is, if TKR ran out of money 8 weeks into the war, they'd have surrendered because they'd just have been bouncing meatpuppets if they had continued fighting. In reality, the game has gotten to the point where massive warchests and banks have accumulated, to the point where alliances can successfully fight wars of resistance for months. This isn't the first time we've seen this, after Ayyslamic Crusade, Orange Defense Network held up for a couple of weeks after the rest of their coalition had peaced out, so that ODN could refuse TGH's terms. The "69" day war was the longest war in Orbis history before this war. Wars are getting longer because there's just way too much warchest accumulation these days.

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Stop bullshitting inst. ODN didn't continue because "lol we have the excess", they continued because they didn't want to be seen as an NPO meat puppet and figured that was a decent way to show it.

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9 minutes ago, Akuryo said:

Doesn't help when they've got no infra and can't afford to repair it to much of anything. I'm talking about people I personally know, and you can't repair 20 cities to... Much of anything with the cash stack your mentioning. 

Ofc, you could fix up like 8 cities with that money, point is, that is still a p big reduction in costs for the alliance. Going from say, 22m to 13-14m cost. 

10 minutes ago, A Boy Named Crow said:

-The point is, when TKR-sphere runs out of money, they will be materially incapable of continuing the war. I've been criticizing SynDIQ for not doing blockade chains. But the way they're beiging TKR-sphere seems to be focused on increasing the physical damage instead of the morale damage, so there's logic in that.

 

-I'll point out that there's about 300bn damage minus 50bn loot damage already dealt, so about 250bn of TKR-sphere's gigantic warchests already blew up. I can see upper 11 digits remaining, but I don't see the need for "residual" warchests after terms are acceded to as being excessive.

 

-Another thing to mention is, for players of other games, the long duration of war is not something people are unaccustomed to. I remember having once spent 3 months getting up every update to file in attacks.

 

-Lastly, a lot of people are blaming TKR intransigence for this war, but I think they're mistaken. The fact of the matter is, if TKR ran out of money 8 weeks into the war, they'd have surrendered because they'd just have been bouncing meatpuppets if they had continued fighting. In reality, the game has gotten to the point where massive warchests and banks have accumulated, to the point where alliances can successfully fight wars of resistance for months. This isn't the first time we've seen this, after Ayyslamic Crusade, Orange Defense Network held up for a couple of weeks after the rest of their coalition had peaced out, so that ODN could refuse TGH's terms. The "69" day war was the longest war in Orbis history before this war. Wars are getting longer because there's just way too much warchest accumulation these days.

I'm gonna say, I like this prolonged war. The only real benefit coming from it is that a lot of alliances involved aren't gaining much income, and therefore their WC is decreasing, even if it is by a small amount. Hopefully this leads to alliances being fully aware of the damages caused by this autism. 

The downsides of course, are a lot though. Market prices being horrible, players quitting, almost no alliances being able to have drama because the world is in a coalition. 

Every alliance should go paperless and this would fix the problem. Every alliance goes to war against one another, winner takes all. Losers have to delete their nations. 

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