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Just now, Dio Brando said:

Hello, my name is Dio. 

Bullshit don't lie to us.

Good thread tho.

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Just now, Sketchy said:

Okay Ibnar.

Sometimes I hate you. Sometimes I love you. This is one of the times it’s both. 

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6 minutes ago, Dio Brando said:

Look at @WISD0MTREE's post in a thread from 2015:

I never knew necroposting was this fun. I should try it more!

In all seriousness, though, I do believe this is how many of us feel. The current "punishment" doesn't punish anyone; it doesn't even correct. Unless you want to deal with public backlash from a future exploit, you have to deter future exploiters. The fact that they're still gaining from this exploit after the "punishment" does not deter anyone. Plus, contradicting your previous cheating stance doesn't help. I can understand not wanting to alienate the NR members who didn't intentionally benefit from the exploit. However, as we've pointed out in other threads, this community is not very forgiving. Deleting their cities gained after the exploit would be optimal for everyone involved. You have a tough decision, Sheepy. Good luck!

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Give me 4 cities, Alex, and I will forgive Nova Riata. 

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59 minutes ago, Dio Brando said:

Hello, my name is Dio. 

Not to be confused with the infamous @Diomedes 

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unknown.png

 

Congratulations TKR, condolences Nova Riata.

No but seriously, good decision. No one should protect cheaters. 

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2 hours ago, Dio Brando said:

Hello, my name is Dio. Many of you will have seen my name popping up everywhere in the past few days, and I have not been quiet about my objection to what has been happening. My views on the situation and what it represents could not be clearer. I held out just in case I was mistaken, but I was clearly not.

I will not lie, today has been a rollercoaster, as much if not more so than for any of you bar perhaps Pooball et al. themselves. Currently it is 6:40 AM, and I have been awake for a significantly greater period of time than one should healthily get. My apologies if this post is not up to par; at this point in time I am royally pissed, and, frankly, deeply disappointed. As a disclaimer, of-course, I do not speak for anyone but myself, but I believe my views are shared by many. As always, discussion is encouraged. I do not promise fast responses, but I will do my best anyway.

According to what I have read and understood, @Alex has done two things:

  1. He deleted the bank contents of NR's off-shore bank. 
  2. He deleted six people's cities that were bought after 4/28. This amounts to less than $7bn, peanuts compared to what was generated.

While these are two good first steps, I don't think this is anywhere near enough. This is not the way to go about this.

We used to know if we fricked with the rules, we would get our ass whopped. We used to know if we violated the trust other players and the administration of this game puts in us to play fairly, we would be punished. We used to know that our actions have consequences. That is no longer the case, it appears. Look at @WISD0MTREE's post in a thread from 2015:

unknown.png

By god were you right about this Alex. Cheaters don't deserve to be in the community. They don't deserve to keep playing. They certainly don't deserve to be rewarded. They don't deserve "fair" punishments, they deserve punishments that teach them and any other who wish to do the same that certain things are intolerable. We know that this doesn't even begin to truly address the exploit's effects, and perhaps without a complete roll back (which is its own set of problems that I don't wish to indulge, now or in the future), we won't ever be able to. We don't need to, either. The point of punishments like these is not merely to reverse the damage caused by cheating but by setting an example. Look at your own post from May, 2015:

unknown.png

 

People benefited from this exploit, and knowingly or otherwise grew their nations tremendously. This is the type of precedent you want to set.

What has been done is currently nowhere near what you have to account for. According to a friend of mine, the resources still out there are worth tens of billions of dollars (in my sleepy state, I belive the figure comes to be about ~$142.57bn). You haven't actually punished them. You took away their bank content, but that was never their's to begin with. You took away their cities, but those too were bought illegally. You only began on the road to cutting them down to size. This isn't punishment. Nowhere close. You don't need to punish the whole AA, but individuals that profited massively and directly off of this stand in direct opposition to fair play.

  1. Remove Nova cities purchased with exploit money,
  2. Remove bank/nation inventories that are filled with exploit money to a great degree,
  3. Reset the offender that didn't generate the money but regardless used it to grow his nation, whether he knew it or not
  4. Ban the offender who was aware of it and failed to report it.
     

I know your heart is in the right place, and I genuinely do appreciate the things you've already done, Alex. This wasn't a clean situation for anyone, but this has to be addressed with more than actions that merely bring cheaters down to everyone else's level. This won't fix their advantage in war. This won't fix their impact on the current war. But it'll be far better than what you have currently. Nova, I see Pooball has stepped down and left the alliance. I applaud this, but it won't be nearly enough to absolve you in the court of public opinion. Figure out where you want to go from here. Know whether you want the people who directly brought you into this mess in your alliance. I hope you'll make the right decision.

@ Mods; Feel free to move this to the appropriate place.

1) I agree but should not be limited to Nova, they sold a shit ton of resources insanely cheap to a lot of alliances, those alliances should also have their cities removed also as they clearly benefited from it
2) Agreed but again should be any alliance who bought or got cheap resources from Nova
3) Agreed, should be game wide however
4) So NPO, Rose, tCW, Sanctuary to name but a few who Pooball claim to have messaged him demanding up to half the resources for them not to report it? Damn i can see a lot of alliances getting banned at this rate.

What people seem to over look is a lot of alliances bought really cheap resources from Nova, after the fact most knew this happened as it was reported in some way a month ago, So if Alex went hard nose over this, shouldnt all be punished ?

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There is a lot to unpack here. Let us begin.

1 minute ago, Elijah Mikaelson said:

1) I agree but should not be limited to Nova, they sold a shit ton of resources insanely cheap to a lot of alliances, those alliances should also have their cities removed also as they clearly benefited from it

Logistically this would be a genuine nightmare for Sheepy. That set aside, nations from all-over were very clearly not directly benefiting from this; they were being given equal opportunity and were still actually paying money to get resources (albeit at a cheaper rate). Nova was being directly wired this all. If, however, Sheepy does decide to go through with this, I wouldn't mind terribly.

3 minutes ago, Elijah Mikaelson said:

 2) Agreed but again should be any alliance who bought or got cheap resources from Nova

See above.

3 minutes ago, Elijah Mikaelson said:

 3) Agreed, should be game wide however

Offenders by definition would not be from all over the game. They would be limited to people Nova Riata had a vested interest in funding.

4 minutes ago, Elijah Mikaelson said:

 4) So NPO, Rose, tCW, Sanctuary to name but a few who Pooball claim to have messaged him demanding up to half the resources for them not to report it? Damn i can see a lot of alliances getting banned at this rate.

You are mistaken. Pooball never claimed to have NPO message him, nor did he claim Rose/tCW/Sanctuary messaged him. There were people aware of this, used that 'extortion' as bait to get him report it, and we all published the findings. So, no. Not 'a lot of alliances' will be getting banned.

6 minutes ago, Elijah Mikaelson said:

 What people seem to over look is a lot of alliances bought really cheap resources from Nova, after the fact most knew this happened as it was reported in some way a month ago, So if Alex went hard nose over this, shouldnt all be punished ?

No, there was no immediate connection made between Nova and the resource spike, nor was it reported anywhere officially. Alliances conducted their own investigations but the findings of those reports were limited in scope and breadth; this alliance-specific investigation occurred only due to a tip off about an entirely different matter. See where I'm going with this?

21 minutes ago, Shadowthrone said:

@Alex thanks for the work being done mate. But with regards to leaving the community to police itself, I honestly believe that’s a bad standard. You have a tough role to play, but at the end of the day, you’re our only impartial arbiter when it comes to situations like this. 

Leaving it to the community, I have already been approached to carry out things with regards to nova and not just the individuals involved, which hark back to the worst excesses I have seen elsewhere. Folks have been clamouring for Permanent Zero Infrastructures, essentially trying to drive the players from the game, since you have left the ramifications of this to us.

Mob justice, is the worst kind of punishment that any player can ever endure. Leaving it to us is a terrible standard that I hope would not have to be the case, and I hope that you continue your work and ensure that restitution and punishment is duly awarded, so that the rehabilitation processes for NR and it’s members, who have not broken the rules, can have avenues to redeem themselves and become responsible members of our community.

We police ourselves to the best of our abilities, but in cases like this, that’s solely your job, and if you do require any more proof or any help at all, the community at large will most definitely be willing to help. So use your position and see that this situation achieves a equitable conclusion, that should not be reduced to community policing measures.

 

Regards,

Keshav.

This is for the most part, spot on. Communities should not be doing the job of the moderator, but it is equally true to say that communities should 100% take a vested interest in this sort of thing. They should be actively suggesting things, but those suggestions and proposals should pass through the sieve of impartial administration. This is how every healthy game system functions.

Having said that...

Let me be very clear: throughout the duration of this debacle, from the moment the first DM was sent to me, to the time Sheepy announced what had occurred publicly, I have repeatedly warned against making this a witch-hunt. I have also made sure this does not become a politicized affair. As soon as one's purpose becomes vindictive in nature, an investigation turns into an inquisition. I neither have interest in seeing this occur, nor do I particularly care for all of NR being hunted down. I have grudges against certain players, and, given the chance, I will gladly see to it that those grudges are 'resolved', but this never has, and never will turn into a desire to drive players that have not cheated out of the game.

Knowing the scope of what has occurred, however, we must be harsh in our efforts against this. The steps I have outlined are neither particularly outrageous, nor are they exceptionally harsh.

 

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22 minutes ago, Elijah Mikaelson said:

1) I agree but should not be limited to Nova, they sold a shit ton of resources insanely cheap to a lot of alliances, those alliances should also have their cities removed also as they clearly benefited from it
2) Agreed but again should be any alliance who bought or got cheap resources from Nova
3) Agreed, should be game wide however
4) So NPO, Rose, tCW, Sanctuary to name but a few who Pooball claim to have messaged him demanding up to half the resources for them not to report it? Damn i can see a lot of alliances getting banned at this rate.

What people seem to over look is a lot of alliances bought really cheap resources from Nova, after the fact most knew this happened as it was reported in some way a month ago, So if Alex went hard nose over this, shouldnt all be punished ?

1 & 2) Everyone got cheaper resources as a result of there being more supply than demand, punishing people who bought resources within the rules of the game is perverse.

4) This is straight up bullshit, I saw a message claiming we did this after this all came out, absolute rubbish.

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2 minutes ago, Frawley said:

1 & 2) Everyone got cheaper resources as a result of there being more supply than demand, punishing people who bought resources within the rules of the game is perverse.

4) This is straight up bullshit, I saw a message claiming we did this after this all came out, absolute rubbish.

I'm pretty sure it is bullshit, but the point is so many people are calling for all of nova to be punished and yet without being able prove that all nova knew about it, and I know but waiting on prove that Nova did bank to bank for resources at a dumb price it is these trades I'm talking about.

Edited by Elijah Mikaelson

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It's pretty clear the resources aided much more than just the gov, so the gov shouldn't be the only ones punished. Many members in Nova have jumped from 12 cities to 18 cities by means of grants from the generated res. They bought a city every 10 days for two months straight. 

All Nova members should at least lose all the cities made from the exploit date. However as Aris said, they have yet to be punished. There has only been a half fix to the exploit. My opinion on a good punishment would be to remove all the new cities plus x more cities from before the date if they have received any form of grant from the Nova bank. Pooball for example grew to 27 cities in 400 days, and we know that he's at least cheated on getting the last 4. He should lose half of 27, so be cut down to 13 cities or something. 

Another thing is that I remember rolling Nova in Knightfall personally, the alliance consisted of a small group and they still individually had something around 4b in cash and a solid alliance WC equivalent in quantity to what was stolen from Pantheon by Akuryo. So from my perspective, they've been at it from since they've founded.

I do recall seeing a log of AD holding their bank for them at the time. I will see if I can find that log again.

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10 minutes ago, Khai Jäger said:

However as Aris said, they have yet to be punished.

I haven't used that name in almost two years. 😛

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image.png.4eaca2f60df13dd67f2e08c408008b6e.png


The people who accept the Nova deserters should know that they are accepting cities built through cheat monies and should be ashamed

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9 minutes ago, ShadyAssassin said:

 

image.png.4eaca2f60df13dd67f2e08c408008b6e.png

 


The people who accept the Nova deserters should know that they are accepting cities built through cheat monies and should be ashamed

And that they are giving the entire game an easy CB against them....

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1 minute ago, Senatorius said:

And that they are giving the entire game an easy CB against them....

I for one am going to keep rolling these pricks till they quit or reroll irrespective of which alliance they may be part of. 
I'm sure the community supports this. If they don't, feel free to counter me but I'll go down as the guy who fought the cheaters till his last day(or theirs)

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2 hours ago, ShadyAssassin said:

I for one am going to keep rolling these pricks till they quit or reroll irrespective of which alliance they may be part of. 
I'm sure the community supports this. If they don't, feel free to counter me but I'll go down as the guy who fought the cheaters till his last day(or theirs)

AleksandrToday at 7:14 PM

 
Empyrea offers asylum to all current NR nation's looking to avoid the oncoming onslaught.

𝓐𝓵𝓮𝔁Today at 8:13 PM

 
"Empyrea offers asylum to all current NR nation's looking to avoid the oncoming onslaught."
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Alex needs time to do a full investigation of the affair; i.e, it took him 1 full day, and probably one full day's effort, to detect 1 exploiter and remove the added resources from the game. What Alex needs to do is to issue a statement that the exploit will be fully investigated using rollbacks as well, to determine fully who benefited directly from the exploit. This is going to take time, but we'd like a statement of intent.

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You're citing something from 2015, but this is way more than Alex did about Greene.

Calling on admin to delete stuff from people who weren't aware their gov was cheating is too far, imo. We're talking about newer players who have smaller city counts, not game breaking unbalance... if they weren't growing from selling resources, they could have done it through other means, which is probably part of why it took so long to track this down. Admin was told a month ago and didn't do anything about it, so punishing those players (especially considering they're already in a war) is a lot of punishment for a problem that lacks intentionality.

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1 hour ago, Limbuwan said:

AleksandrToday at 7:14 PM

 
Empyrea offers asylum to all current NR nation's looking to avoid the oncoming onslaught.

𝓐𝓵𝓮𝔁Today at 8:13 PM

 
"Empyrea offers asylum to all current NR nation's looking to avoid the oncoming onslaught."

Yea, I heard something like that lmao
Apparently gov made a joke where every member is supposed to go to Nova server and say that

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