Rose's Surrender

[Bhuto]

Best of luck ROSE have a nice rebuild ahead (already started though   )

[Foltest]

I'm not sure what this is based off of and it's clearly not marginally worse than white peace. It would be the second-highest amount demanded in the war and higher than what was demanded proportionally of other alliances.

 

Except that's not really what Frawley said. The reason we didn't seek peace is because knew if we sought peace shortly after the opposition had landed what could be perceived as a knockout blow, we would be in a weaker position and have to deal with heavy demands. While we didn't oppose anyone seeking peace, we preferred those who felt they could continue to fight to stay in as it would be better than following the usual pattern where everything is in the hands of the winning side even if the war hasn't gone on very long and the losers basically are at their mercy. As we knew the ramifications of a loss going in, there was little to lose by doing this due to the political situation. If we just wanted to rogue out, I wouldn't have bothered engaging at all when approached.

 

Very rough calculations taking NPO's total population and assuming 100% commerce rate with 0 rebuilding taking place before that, you guys make roughly $95 mil a day raw revenue.

 

So idk divide that by half to account for bills and it'll take you maybe 14-20 days to generate the cash if you don't rebuild any infra.

 

 

 

 

Try not to roast my rough calculations too badly and I'll even admit I could be way off from current numbers since I assume commerce improvements being lost has impacted income.

 

edit: I found out why my numbers were so high.

Edited October 5, 2016 by Raymond Reddington

[durmij]

Best of luck ROSE have a nice rebuild ahead (already started though   )

Miss you buddy. You fought well! Good luck in RW.

[Auctor]

The reps represent roughly a week worth of economic output, it's only marginally different than pure white peace.  So effectively what you're saying is, you're not interested in peace.  Since this is a war you started, what NPO is effectively doing is going rogue on their way out.

 

Which is fine.  I'm not sad to be a part of it, and I'm not protesting it.  Just calling a spade a spade.  You aren't the victim.

 

What does it matter if your diplomatic position is entirely hopeless as you keep asserting?

I don't really understand why you'd see it as an expression of hopelessness to keep fighting. A criticism that perhaps we hope too much would make some sense.

 

And no, we aren't victims. Coughing up the money would be an expression of victimhood.

[Ogaden]

Hasn't a precedent already been set by tS when they paid Arrgh 100mil to peace out with SK/Mensa/Guardian?

Wow ancient history brah Edited October 5, 2016 by Ogaden

[Foltest]

We now learn that Arrgh are the real villains of this story.

[Guest Frawley]

The reps represent roughly a week worth of economic output

Your numbers are wrong and your post follows.

[Dr Rush]

What in the world was that forum about?

sa

 

 

 

Thanks for the nuance here.

 

Yeah, I mean brought it up when someone said that if a leader happens to have a losing war, they should step down that it didn't happen with you guys despite the scenarios being somewhat similar. I don't even think anyone on the victorious side said Tenages should step down. Maybe some people did, but I don't remember the OWF being quite at the stage where that would be a normal thing. No one really perceives it as a mistake given the available options. We pursued the best outcome we could get even if it was risky. At the start of the war, I wasn't really unclear that it may not be a win, but we wanted to avoid the same thing that happened in the last war.

 

You have exactly figured it out with this paragraph since virtually no one wants to pay. People have said our viewpoint has been disingenuous or delusional even, but ultimately it is the one we hold. I know you disagree, but as we continue to see more and more consolidation, it's hard to see anything else happening and others have noticed this. Mechanically, it's a bit different since SK was a higher tier alliance at the time and considerable damage could be done round after round. We've bottomed out, so the most of the arguing has been over opportunity cost, rather than damage.

 

As for the post you're addressing, I don't think he's really addressing this forum seriously.  However, it would be more pertinent to the general state of relations between us and the other side rather than directly  motivating the reps demand.  To get to the current point where we are at, one has to take into account the last war and the perceived motivations behind targeting NPO specifically(including efforts to avoid involvement of traditional Paracovenant alliances) along with the timing.  We likely wouldn't have felt it necessary to attack first if we didn't feel the opposition had indicated to us they saw it as their right to attack us whenever they felt ready. I don't believe they wanted to demand reps on the offensive.

 

Also, just because a group doesn't have an overt connection, doesn't mean people can't hold feelings stemming from that, but again I'm not saying it's motivating the reps demand. The reps demand is reflective of the fact that they took damage, but ended up winning, didn't like NPO before, and feel aggrieved by NPO even though they hit NPO before. Other alliances have been mentioned in that regard including the one you brought up along with NPO's own reps record(people even hinted NPO would have demanded a lot of reps if we won the last war) and my personal reps record, so it's not totally surprising to see someone bring up "saltiness" over (That terrible game that is totally irrelevant and I shouldn't be bringing it up anyways).

 

 

There is a large difference though. SK was standing on a long stated principle. Your spewing BS in an attempt to wiggle out of reps. If you actually cared about your position next war you would have peaced out. As it is you'll still be ZIed when the next war starts & have nothing to contribute. Kinda like Alpha. 

 

fwiw, there were suggestions for Tenages to step down due to the whole shenanigans of The Great VE War planning, but neither side really cared to push it hard.  The only major situation that occurred from an alliance to push a leader to step down was VE on Syndicate, which later trickled down to what you see here.  Syndicate leaving and helping develop the strongest most coordinated sphere so far in this game.

 

Oh, and there was that time with Clarke and DEIC, or was that his sister?  I can't remember, but we got bird brain and he's cool.  I'd say that despite DEIC still being on the opposing sphere, having TheNG be the face/lead of the alliance definitely made them better to establish relations with.

Grillick was forced to step down in ST. Patrick's Day Massacre as part of the terms.

 

As someone who has fought for over two months against tS (hi), it's actually not that bad compared to what people make it out to be.

New mechanics make this a much worse idea though. By the time NPO peaces out they will have almost no improvements. Oh btw NPO you realize that your commerce buildings are actually costing you money right?

[Kemal Ergenekon]

Summary of this thread in a single pic:

 

[Buorhann]

Haha, Kemal is slaying the boards lately.

[Guest Frawley]

There is a large difference though. SK was standing on a long stated principle. Your spewing BS in an attempt to wiggle out of reps. If you actually cared about your position next war you would have peaced out. As it is you'll still be ZIed when the next war starts & have nothing to contribute. Kinda like Alpha.

1. If this were true, we would be at peace

2. I'm not sure why not accepting the first offer from a sphere that has raided us, paid to have us raided, rolled us for no reason and is already predicting how badly we will perform against them next time is BS

[PackAnimal]

This topic is too short. Shitpost!

[Sisyphus]

1. If this were true, we would be at peace

2. I'm not sure why not accepting the first offer from a sphere that has raided us, paid to have us raided, rolled us for no reason and is already predicting how badly we will perform against them next time is BS

Whoa. Way to be purposefully obtuse.

[The Mad Titan]

1. If this were true, we would be at peace

2. I'm not sure why not accepting the first offer from a sphere that has raided us, paid to have us raided, rolled us for no reason and is already predicting how badly we will perform against them next time is BS

 

You missed the part where you invaded them without a CB and lost to that list of why they want you to pay reps.

Edited October 5, 2016 by LeotheGreat

[LordRahl2]

Longest P&W thread is about the greatest fighting force in all of Mensa....Manpile. (Note to self: procure group photoshop)

 

Longest thread on our forums? Literally nothing. No post contains more than 2 characters.

 

 

you and I both know that is not true

 

It is absolutely true.  The longest thread on our forums (349 pages) literally contains only the characters "s" and "a".  (5th most viewed)

 

The Longest thread on the P/W forums (94 pages) is literally about the best unit in MENSA, Manpile: (4th most viewed)

 

[Guest Frawley]

You missed the part where you invaded them without a CB and lost to that list of why they want you to pay reps.

I thought I just gave you three CB's

[Foltest]

I thought I just gave you three CB's

 

You gave three clauses of propaganda. There is a difference, despite what NPO wishes to believe.

[Auctor]

You gave three clauses of propaganda. There is a difference, despite what NPO wishes to believe.

It really isn't debatable that we got raided by your sphere in the past. If you want to bend over backwards lying about the rest, go ahead by all means.

[Yosodog]

What is this about us raiding you guys? I haven't heard that story yet.

[Beowulf the Second]

UPN has paid reps in the past. We are no longer willing to do so. Not because of a principled stance, but because we simply don't want to given how negotiations went down.

 

I'll start by saying that there's nothing objectively wrong with this. Choose whatever you want, for whatever reason you want.

 

But once you throw pragmatism out the window for "they weren't polite to us so let's not do what we think is actually best for us", you open the door to a bunch of other sht. You end up corrupting your process of rational decision making, and mostly hurt yourselves in the process. That's just my opinion though.

[Guest Frawley]

You gave three clauses of propaganda. There is a difference, despite what NPO wishes to believe.

Is an aggressive strike by BK on NPO valid cb or not Holton, if it isn't then honestly I do not know what is.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Frawley

[Foltest]

It really isn't debatable that we got raided by your sphere in the past. If you want to bend over backwards lying about the rest, go ahead by all means.

 

Going with Yoso here, haven't heard this one before.

 

Unless you're talking about Arrgh who is a neutral group.

 

Is an aggressive strike by BK on NPO valid cb or not Holton, if it isn't then honestly I do not know what is.

 

Well at least you guys finally admit you planned this sneak attack finally. Although honestly there was no choice for BK in that situation. Alpha had been at war for ages and you guys were their only allies that wanted to actually defend them. It just made sense imo, although I wasn't part of that decision.

[Placentica]

You missed the part where you invaded them without a CB and lost to that list of why they want you to pay reps.

No he didn't.

 

1. If this were true, we would be at peace

2. I'm not sure why not accepting the first offer from a sphere that has raided us, paid to have us raided, rolled us for no reason and is already predicting how badly we will perform against them next time is BS

 

Well at least you guys finally admit you planned this sneak attack finally. Although honestly there was no choice for BK in that situation. Alpha had been at war for ages and you guys were their only allies that wanted to actually defend them. It just made sense imo, although I wasn't part of that decision.

False. We just preferred to go it alone b/c I didn't think extended allies were ready and I knew going it alone would prevent your side from doing what it's doing now - leveraging those same allies to get huge levels of reps.  Plus we had several months to prepare for an extended nuclear war since tS has tipped their hand far before they actually hit.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Placentica

[Foltest]

No he didn't.

 

 

False. We just preferred to go it alone b/c I didn't think extended allies were ready and I knew going it alone would prevent your side from doing what it's doing now - leveraging those same allies to get huge levels of reps.  Plus we had several months to prepare for an extended nuclear war since tS has tipped their hand far before they actually hit.

 

I'm really not trying to argue the politics of last war. The fact was that NPO was *seen* by our side to be your only ally that wanted to jump in for you, thus they were a threat.

[Guest Frawley]

Unless you're talking about Arrgh who is a neutral group.

Mensa raided us en masse a month after we founded

Arrgh raided us a few months later and told us they were paid for the hit by your sphere