Roy Mustang Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 (edited) Biggest mistake of the war was ts dropping alpha and then disparaging them. Instead of a so-so ally(according to ts) you now have an enemy. Ts dropping alpha gets them no political advantage other than regaining their loss honor or whatever. Woo hoo so great. tS dropping Alpha, while a direct consequence of Alpha's conduct during the war, was not actually part of the war. At the conclusion of the war, while relations were strained, the decision had not yet been made. That being said, I personally would find it distasteful to maintain a treaty with an alliance you do not trust simply because you think it affords you better political positioning. Your stance asserting otherwise is... illuminating. 2nd biggest mistake is ts-Mensa agreeing to white peace instead of paying reps. This one is more tricky to understand so I'll try to clarify. Paying reps usually means you lost the war. White peace means you tied. Obviously Mensa ts didn't lose the war but if they pretend to think they loss then the upn-ve-rose coalition would break up. These three are only united cause they think Mensa sucks and ts sucks Mensa. Mensa ts pretends to show remorse or good will then anti Mensa coalition disappears and everyone's happy. Instead everyone is now waiting to roll ts Mensa next war. We didn't agree to white peace in the sense that you seem to be implying. tS and allies have had the offer of white peace on the table since day two of the conflict, and at no point was that offer rescinded. It may have taken a while for the opposing coalition to see reason and agree that it was in the best interests of both parties, but it wasn't a shift in stance by any means. Nor do I think that paying reps would have done anything, really, to the political situation. The issues people have with Mensa stem from personality and how they carry themselves, primarily. Reps aren't going to change that, only meaningful interaction can. As far as showing good will, personally I think the sheer amount of diplomatic effort put in to this shows ample good will. We tried to broker multiple deals to avert this conflict, participated in Alpha's efforts to conclude the war in good faith, and put our own efforts forth to conclude the war as well. That's a show of goodwill no matter how you cut it (especially when you consider that tS had an unmitigated military success on its hands in our theaters of combat). Unless, of course, by "goodwill" you mean "you should have just let us kill Mensa", in which case I ask you: Would you stand idly by while tS and Mensa killed Rose? We both know you wouldn't, so spare me, please. Edited February 25, 2016 by Roy Mustang 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buorhann Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Biggest mistake of the war was ts dropping alpha and then disparaging them. Instead of a so-so ally(according to ts) you now have an enemy. Ts dropping alpha gets them no political advantage other than regaining their loss honor or whatever. Woo hoo so great. Actually, it was a smart move. I can see your perspective on it, but Syndicate's hands were tied on assisting SK after Alpha's declaration on them because they didn't want any treaty violations. Now, Syndicate and other SK's allies could've said "Screw it" and attack Alpha in retaliation, but I think it's safe to assume that people sided with Syndicate wanted to honor Syndicate's treaty ties with Alpha. So basically, as I stated previously, Alpha wasted a potential buffer zone on a dumb move by attacking SK. Or they wasted a tie to a strong ally, depending how you want to look at it. Alpha made the decision to be a enemy to Syndi-sphere by breaking their word to Syndicate, that much was already in place. Now there's no tie preventing future retaliation if it happens again. ------------------ To look at it from your perspective, you're right that Syndicate could've benefited from the higher tier that Alpha provides and with this break of ties, it's no longer there. However, look at this past war - Alpha didn't benefit Syndicate at all and Syndi-sphere did fantastic in the war against over whelming odds. Alpha was already an enemy once they attacked SK. So to say that Syndicate needs Alpha is... well, I just don't see the evidence. There is also a huge political advantage on this. Why keep a person around who doesn't hold up to their word? Or who fails at communicating? It's a huge burden, not a benefit. A burden that will now go onto other alliances. 1 1 Quote Warrior of Dio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfPCFQfOnLg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Mensa ts pretends to show remorse or good will then anti Mensa coalition disappears and everyone's happy. Instead everyone is now waiting to roll ts Mensa next war. Tldr Mensa ts are butt hurt, don't know how to make friends, and are antagonizing others to form a coalition against them. Remorse? We just think your side are useless !@#$s and have no problem telling you so. I wish you luck on your planning of the next attempt to roll t$/Mensa. Quote ☾☆ Warrior of Dio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caecus Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 11 page bookmark. Whoot! Is that a record? Quote It's a useful mental exercise. Through the years, many thinkers have been fascinated by it. But I don't enjoy playing. It was a game that was born during a brutal age when life counted for little. Everyone believed that some people were worth more than others. Kings. Pawns. I don't think that anyone is worth more than anyone else. Chess is just a game. Real people are not pieces. You can't assign more value to some of them and not others. Not to me. Not to anyone. People are not a thing that you can sacrifice. The lesson is, if anyone who looks on to the world as if it was a game of chess, deserves to lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezg Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 (edited) @ bourn Alpha helped rose thiis war. It just happened that helping them hurt ts. To say alpha is a burden that can't carry their own weight is incorrect. Ts-Mensa did do pretty amazing this war but it's impossible to keep this sort of performance up. This is similar to a gambler problem. The gambler wins double or loses everything. Regardless of the gamblers chance of winning each time he gambled he will eventually end up with zero. The expected winnings is positive but the winnings will converge to zero as more gambles occur. Right now if Mensa-ts loses they lose everything cause they have few friends similar to how sk guardian loss everything in that one war i forgot the name of. @mustang Trust can always be built. To keep alpha means you still have a slight chance to recieve help. The chance is still better than zero which is what you have now. Furthermore reparations mean a big deal psychologically even more so than pixel wise. People don't like Mensa cause their personality comes off as arrogant(not my opinion). They have that we gonna beat you attitude that makes other people feel inferior. If you "beat" them, the feeling of resentment dissipates. Let's say you did let Mensa get rolled. Mensa is more than competent enough to not get destroyed completely. Their score is also low enough that repairs are cheap comparatively. Ts sits out a war and instead sells war goods making huge profits. Give those profits to Mensa to rebuild and Mensa is once again back a war strength. Except this time, the opposition against you is less unified. And instead of 2 coalitions facing off you have 2-3 sides. Mensa-ts have the same problem guardian-SK used to have. You guys try to form an invincibility aura which only encourages other people to unite against you. Eventually you guys are gonna lose a war and its better to have a controlled loss than an actual stomp. Edited February 25, 2016 by Ezg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buorhann Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 @ bourn Alpha helped rose thiis war. It just happened that helping them hurt ts. To say alpha is a burden that can't carry their own weight is incorrect. Politically speaking, Alpha is a burden. Militarily speaking, that's still up in the air considering all they've done is beat up on people who were already weakened or knocked out of wars. @mustang Trust can always be built. To keep alpha means you still have a slight chance to recieve help. The chance is still better than zero which is what you have now. Trust is harder to build than it is to lose. Alpha was willing to risk losing it, not Syndicate. Furthermore reparations mean a big deal psychologically even more so than pixel wise. People don't like Mensa cause their personality comes off as arrogant(not my opinion). They have that we gonna beat you attitude that makes other people feel inferior. If you "beat" them, the feeling of resentment dissipates. You put too much value in reparations. Also, reparations has no tie in for people's opinion of Mensa, otherwise - they would LOVE Mensa. Fun fact: Mensa has never demanded reparations except in two situations. $1 from Impero and $50mil from DEIC cause of Clarke. Let's say you did let Mensa get rolled. Mensa is more than competent enough to not get destroyed completely. Their score is also low enough that repairs are cheap comparatively. Ts sits out a war and instead sells war goods making huge profits. Give those profits to Mensa to rebuild and Mensa is once again back a war strength. Except this time, the opposition against you is less unified. And instead of 2 coalitions facing off you have 2-3 sides. So you want alliances to let Mensa suffer just to profit the market? Right now I'm sitting in a meeting about clarifying values as a leader and how it's important to attract followers. I'm glad I see your values. Mensa-ts have the same problem guardian-SK used to have. You guys try to form an invincibility aura which only encourages other people to unite against you. Eventually you guys are gonna lose a war and its better to have a controlled loss than an actual stomp. Awesome. That means we're doing something right. To be honest, this war should've been the war where Mensa and Co. got stomped. It does bring up another point though - Syndi-sphere aligned alliances are far more adept at learning from previous experiences than alliances aligned in the Rose-sphere. 1 Quote Warrior of Dio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfPCFQfOnLg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezg Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 @bourn You're quite melodramatic you know. People don't actually die in pnw wars. There's no actual suffering occurring. The profits go to rebuild the damage Mensa took. Syndisphere alliances are not better learners they are just better positioned. You guys did coordinated growth which props to you is a great strategy. Now you can snipe higher nations who can't declare which work great against rose like alliances. However now that you did so much damage the advantage of coordinated growth is reduced. Originally you have 50 nations that could declare on you and 100 that you up declare and snipe. Now that you sniped those 100, there are now 150 nations that can declare on you. (Numbers may not be accurate) This game is constantly changing which is why it's fun. The same strat isn't going to work every time which is what you guys think will happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prefontaine Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Mensa-ts have the same problem guardian-SK used to have. You guys try to form an invincibility aura which only encourages other people to unite against you. Eventually you guys are gonna lose a war and its better to have a controlled loss than an actual stomp. Pretty sure I, on numerous occasions, stated Guardian was beatable and intentionally turned away prospective allies to avoid making too large of a glob of allies. Guardian had SK and TEst as allies. Something around 70 players at its peek. We had deals with Rose and Vanguard, but those were for 1 war each due to common interests at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Stewart Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Pretty sure I, on numerous occasions, stated Guardian was beatable and intentionally turned away prospective allies to avoid making too large of a glob of allies. Guardian had SK and TEst as allies. Something around 70 players at its peek peak. We had deals with Rose and Vanguard, but those were for 1 war each due to common interests at the time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Prefontaine Posted February 25, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted February 25, 2016 Pretty sure I, on numerous occasions, stated Guardian was beatable and intentionally turned away prospective allies to avoid making too large of a glob of allies. Guardian had SK and TEst as allies. Something around 70 players at its peek peak. We had deals with Rose and Vanguard, but those were for 1 war each due to common interests at the time. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buorhann Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 @bourn You're quite melodramatic you know. People don't actually die in pnw wars. There's no actual suffering occurring. The profits go to rebuild the damage Mensa took. Fair point. Please show us the way to this new age of war. Syndisphere alliances are not better learners they are just better positioned. You guys did coordinated growth which props to you is a great strategy. Now you can snipe higher nations who can't declare which work great against rose like alliances. What? I wonder how we learned that strategy... 1 1 Quote Warrior of Dio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfPCFQfOnLg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bollocks Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Steve, let Ezg be the driver pls. Then we can see Ezg be all like: "is ok rose bb, just let mensa roll u. we will just sit on the sidelines profiteering" 4 Quote The Coalition Discord: https://discord.gg/WBzNRGK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pfeiffer Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Pretty sure I, on numerous occasions, stated Guardian was beatable and intentionally turned away prospective allies to avoid making too large of a glob of allies. Guardian had SK and TEst as allies. Something around 70 players at its peek. We had deals with Rose and Vanguard, but those were for 1 war each due to common interests at the time. I reject at least three offers of a treaty each month. 1 Quote ☾☆ Chairman Emeritus of Mensa HQ ☾☆ "It's not about the actual fish, themselves. Fish are not important in this context. It's about fish-ing, the act of fishing itself." -Jack O'Neill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordRahl2 Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Biggest mistake of the war was ts dropping alpha and then disparaging them. Instead of a so-so ally(according to ts) you now have an enemy. Ts dropping alpha gets them no political advantage other than regaining their loss honor or whatever. Woo hoo so great. 2nd biggest mistake is ts-Mensa agreeing to white peace instead of paying reps. This one is more tricky to understand so I'll try to clarify. Paying reps usually means you lost the war. White peace means you tied. Obviously Mensa ts didn't lose the war but if they pretend to think they loss then the upn-ve-rose coalition would break up. These three are only united cause they think Mensa sucks and ts sucks Mensa. Mensa ts pretends to show remorse or good will then anti Mensa coalition disappears and everyone's happy. Instead everyone is now waiting to roll ts Mensa next war. Tldr Mensa ts are butt hurt, don't know how to make friends, and are antagonizing others to form a coalition against them. Ummm, you thinkle ts and mensa lost??? Quote -signature removed for rules violation- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezg Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Steve, let Ezg be the driver pls. Then we can see Ezg be all like: "is ok rose bb, just let mensa roll u. we will just sit on the sidelines profiteering" You can't generalize these type of strategys. Rose nations have high infra so rebuilding is much more expensive than for Mensa. youre comparing apples with oranges. Ummm, you thinkle ts and mensa lost??? Nope, I said you pretend that you loss so people aren't so angry at you. When people hear reps they think defeat. Ts Mensa defeated is much better than ts Mensa draw or even ts Mensa moral victory(since you guys fought well). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buorhann Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 ITT Ezg wants us to admit we lost without actually beating us 1 Quote Warrior of Dio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfPCFQfOnLg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy Mustang Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Nope, I said you pretend that you loss so people aren't so angry at you. When people hear reps they think defeat. Ts Mensa defeated is much better than ts Mensa draw or even ts Mensa moral victory(since you guys fought well). Evidently, we have a higher opinion of the opposing coalition's intelligence than you do. I don't think for a second that Rose or VE or UPN would sit there after getting some token reps saying "well good game guys, we took more damage and didn't succeed in our goals, but we really showed them what for!". They are far smarter than that. I think the best case scenario of tS/Mensa paying reps would be the exact same political situation we have, except we'd have less rebuild money. That's not smart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boony Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 You can't generalize these type of strategys. Rose nations have high infra so rebuilding is much more expensive than for Mensa. youre comparing apples with oranges. Nope, I said you pretend that you loss so people aren't so angry at you. When people hear reps they think defeat. Ts Mensa defeated is much better than ts Mensa draw or even ts Mensa moral victory(since you guys fought well). If we only cared about politics, we would have stayed in Paragon last August. We left Paragon with the expectation that we would be rolled, but would kick ass on the way down. There is absolutely no reason we would keep Alpha, even if it meant a larger chance of us getting rolled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekaterina Kalmyk Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Nope, I said you pretend that you loss so people aren't so angry at you. When people hear reps they think defeat. Ts Mensa defeated is much better than ts Mensa draw or even ts Mensa moral victory(since you guys fought well). You've missed a key point if you think t$ and Mensa care if people are angry with them. Quote Original Art Credit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buorhann Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 You've missed a key point if you think t$ and Mensa care if people are angry with them. Let's go further into detail here: I'm sure they do care, but the alliances they care about - know their opinion matters more than the others not on the cool list. 1 Quote Warrior of Dio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfPCFQfOnLg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekaterina Kalmyk Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Let's go further into detail here: I'm sure they do care, but the alliances they care about - know their opinion matters more than the others not on the cool list. Heh, right. ;D Quote Original Art Credit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bolivar Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 (edited) Meat shields and tax farms. I've said it before, I'll say it again. Rose leeches off of the vast majority of their membership to benefit those in the circle jerk of their inner tier. They are not an alliance, they are a lame social group who all happen to have accounts in this game. You literally just leeched off your entire sphere asking them to defend Mensa when you couldn't take responsibility for or prevent your own members doing something as idiotic as raiding vanguard. Like how utterly stupid do you need to be to realise that raiding vanguard would be an idiotic move? It is ok though, syndisphere saved you so feel free to keep posturing. I suppose if I were you and in your position too I would be trying to save some of my fragile ego by overcompensating. Edited February 26, 2016 by Charles the Tyrant 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Snow Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 You literally just leeched off your entire sphere asking them to defend Mensa when you couldn't take responsibility for or prevent your own members doing something as idiotic as raiding vanguard. Like how utterly stupid do you need to be to realise that raiding vanguard would be an idiotic move? It is ok though, syndisphere saved you so feel free to keep posturing. I suppose if I were you and in your position too I would be trying to save some of my fragile ego by overcompensating. You do realize Rose was offered a 1v1 fight with Mensa which would have prevented a world conflict and they turned this down right? That's not leeching 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
durmij Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 You're paying for their rebuild because your upper tier barely took any damage at all, due to the fact that several were out of range of many counters and most could cherry pick their wars. It's the same thing VE did in the last war. This time we had more bodies to punch up so people like SRD didn't get to avoid taking their licks. You're still drawing conclusions that have nothing to do with your source material. The mechanics of war ranges meaning our middle got hit hardest doesn't mean gov doesn't care. You're spinning this narrative that Rose is 10 old friends and a bunch of semi-active cash cows and it's disingenuous bullshit. 1 Quote https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjI4ROuPyuY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUUEHv8GHcE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bolivar Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 (edited) You do realize Rose was offered a 1v1 fight with Mensa which would have prevented a world conflict and they turned this down right? That's not leeching How does that have anything to do with syndisphere having to save mensa? Rose's own decisions do not absolve mensa of responsibility for their own irresponsibility. There wouldn't have been a war at all if mensa hadn't made such an easily avoidable error. I mean really, did they honestly think attacking vanguard wouldn't lead to consequences? Anyone could have and most probably did predict the likely result. I bet when you heard about the raid you thought "hold on, this isn't gonna go well". tldr: two silly decisions doesn't make mensa smart. It just makes two silly decisions. Edited February 26, 2016 by Charles the Tyrant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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