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A Note on Guardian and The Seven Kingdoms

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Of course you are glad we're not seeking reps for this war, Captain Obvious. Although that was in large part to do with the fact that we truly believed Guardian was turning over a new leaf, and wanting to start a fresh. But it seems to me like that's all been a facade. You had a good opportunity to wrap this up, move forward, and rebuild relations. Instead you have made excuses and whined. Which has only made you look hypocritical given the past actions of Guardian and their allies, and pretty damn pathetic that you can't even accept the responsibility for an aggressive war that went wrong.

 

I've lost a lot of respect that I had for the new regime.

Pretty much exactly this. Put your actions where your words are if you want people to treat you the way you want to be treated.

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So lemme get this straight:
 

-SK and Guardian make a evil plan

-They spend BILLIONS of dollars waging war

-They get pummeled

-And now, some of the STRONGEST members in the game, who spent BILLIONS waging war, cannot pay 100 MILLION in reps, and say it is bad for the game.

 

Here is my solution: Declare war on them and stop when they pay 200 MILLION, 2000 STEEL, ETC. :P

 

I commend Mensa for doing the right thing with honor.

Edited by firecomet234

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Perhaps you don't understand our conviction. 

When I first joined the war, i did so because i was ordered. I lost roughly 10k infrastructure in the matter of a week. When I first was hit by your allies, and the dog piliers, i had no reprieve from this- i was blockaded for a week. When i decided to check our forums, and saw that you required us to submit several times more in bank and resources to you for reps, i was angered. I lost more than many of your men. I was content for white peace. Shellhound stepped down, and the new leadership took over. The war that was leaked by some of your own people, the war that you wanted- Was on our heads for preemptively trying to disarm your ability to fight. If we did accept the terms, we would be paying not for our meddling, but your own. There had never been an intention for Guardian to attack rose. There had only been an intention to incapacitate you to the point you could no longer have done us any harm.  

 

Even then, we had no intentions for asking for terms.

We would not have requested reparations, and we have taken a beating ourselves. By demanding us pay you for the war that you wanted, it is contrite. Guardian will destroy, and we will destroy until you accept peace with no terms. it is disrespectful for a request like yours to take place. 

 

Even now, we have no intentions for asking for terms.

You misunderstand our conviction. Loyalty, Justice, Honor. These are words that you may not understand, and that you've violated in some way shape or form. 

 

Justice- You ask for terms for a war you would have started yourselves if you were prepared. A war in which we were so heavily outnumbered that our slots were full for days, could have been weeks even. As you ask for reparations, look to your own greed as the cause for your destruction. 

 

Honor- You must take us for fools if you think we'd accept such dishonorable terms. We do not have the resources, and the destruction that you've caused was greater in every means than ours, yet you ask for reparations, nonetheless. You ask for reparations for a war that you would have started, and one that would have been very different if events had unfolded later. 

 

Loyalty- You question our loyalty to Gaurdian. I have seen more activity in the last few days on our forum, since i voiced my opinion than i have for many months. You question our loyalty to see things through, and you question it through asking for termed peace. the thing is, when this is over, we will have won some battles, we will have won some wars, we may lose in essence, but we will never lose in spirit. 


We still hold Rose in high regard, We still hold others as well. 

 

We do not hold you in high regard. We see your avarice and greed, and you will pay for your sins. 

 

 

 

By "exposing" us you have proved your true intentions, That after a war instigated by yourself and many others, That after a war in which BOTH sides lost, You still hold your greed above your head. You hope to put outside pressure on us, but fail to realize that you are only making it easier for us to show your true colors. 

We will fight on the beaches, We will fight in the Gardens, We fight on the sea.

 

We will continue to fight for guardian forever. 

I'm not very knowledgeable in Orbis geopolitics, so bear with me here if I get anything wrong. But to my understanding:

Justice- An idea you have perverted, because you clearly see yourself as faultless. The maxim "I did it because I was ordered" may somehow justify your actions in your mind, but (unfortunately!) draws great parallels with the Nuremberg Trials; where hundreds of Nazis used that defense in order to justify their atrocities. "Shellhound did it" is not only convenient for you, but regrettably false. All of you had a hand in it by simply fighting.
 

Honor- "You would've started it if we hadn't, and things would have turned out much differently" THEN LET THEM START IT AND LET THINGS TURN OUT DIFFERENTLY. The conviction that "we could've won, we were preempting in self defense and *sob* all of you dog-pilers suck" is the most dishonorable thing I've heard. Honor brings with it respect, and you are losing that by the second. While I personally disagree with war reparations myself, it has been used throughout the world and will continue to be used to compensate for financial damage that you started. "But wait they would've attacked us-" But then you did it, shut up please.
 

Loyalty- "You question our loyalty to see things through, and you question it through asking for termed peace." What? You ARE aware that loyalty means faithfulness to commitments or obligations, like your leader Shellhound. (I guess you had reasonable reasons, so I'm willing to yield that Shellhound point haha) But I have a hard time understanding what you are being loyal to here- unless of course, you are being loyal to a commitment to "keep fighting no matter what". (In which case you'll be crushed, so that doesn't sound reasonable.) Otherwise, your point doesn't make sense :D


Modus ponendo ponens, perhaps the Orbis community could teach Guardian a thing or two about their own tenets, which they seem to have perverted or misunderstood completely.

Edited by Beowulf the Second
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So lemme get this straight:

 

-SK and Guardian make a evil plan

-They spend BILLIONS of dollars waging war

-They get pummeled

-And now, some of the STRONGEST members in the game, who spent BILLIONS waging war, cannot pay 100 MILLION in reps, and say it is bad for the game.

 

Here is my solution: Declare war on them and stop when they pay 200 MILLION, 2000 STEEL, ETC. :P

 

2k steel? That won't even cover the costs of all the ships I've lost

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You could count UPNs involvement as perhaps a reflection of actions taken from Marionette, but there's no way UPN would have entered without Shellhound's spying, and SK's backstabbery plot.

 

 

I think we would of most likely. And for clarification we didn't know about Shellhound's spying before the war started.

Edited by Saru

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:popcorn:

 

This is great. One of the best dramas of the game so far. Beats Kastor, Pol Pot, and Shellhound, combined. Because it's real drama, not manufactured crap-drama by trolls and incompetents.

Edited by Inst
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I started with reading some of the comments because I decided to see the butthurt SK people. But then I realized that it was just the same stuff being said over and over again.

 

Hope people will come to their senses.

 

o/ VE

Edited by Alataq
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:popcorn:

 

This is great. One of the best dramas of the game so far. Beats Kastor, Pol Pot, and Shellhound, combined. Because it's real drama, not manufactured crap-drama by trolls and incompetents.

 

We are happy to provide.

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Perhaps you don't understand our conviction. 

When I first joined the war, i did so because i was ordered. I lost roughly 10k infrastructure in the matter of a week. When I first was hit by your allies, and the dog piliers, i had no reprieve from this- i was blockaded for a week. When i decided to check our forums, and saw that you required us to submit several times more in bank and resources to you for reps, i was angered. I lost more than many of your men. I was content for white peace. Shellhound stepped down, and the new leadership took over. The war that was leaked by some of your own people, the war that you wanted- Was on our heads for preemptively trying to disarm your ability to fight. If we did accept the terms, we would be paying not for our meddling, but your own. There had never been an intention for Guardian to attack rose. There had only been an intention to incapacitate you to the point you could no longer have done us any harm.  

 

Even then, we had no intentions for asking for terms.

 

We would not have requested reparations, and we have taken a beating ourselves. By demanding us pay you for the war that you wanted, it is contrite. Guardian will destroy, and we will destroy until you accept peace with no terms. it is disrespectful for a request like yours to take place. 

 

Even now, we have no intentions for asking for terms.

You misunderstand our conviction. Loyalty, Justice, Honor. These are words that you may not understand, and that you've violated in some way shape or form. 

 

Justice- You ask for terms for a war you would have started yourselves if you were prepared. A war in which we were so heavily outnumbered that our slots were full for days, could have been weeks even. As you ask for reparations, look to your own greed as the cause for your destruction. 

 

Honor- You must take us for fools if you think we'd accept such dishonorable terms. We do not have the resources, and the destruction that you've caused was greater in every means than ours, yet you ask for reparations, nonetheless. You ask for reparations for a war that you would have started, and one that would have been very different if events had unfolded later. 

 

Loyalty- You question our loyalty to Gaurdian. I have seen more activity in the last few days on our forum, since i voiced my opinion than i have for many months. You question our loyalty to see things through, and you question it through asking for termed peace. the thing is, when this is over, we will have won some battles, we will have won some wars, we may lose in essence, but we will never lose in spirit. 

 

 

We still hold Rose in high regard, We still hold others as well. 

 

We do not hold you in high regard. We see your avarice and greed, and you will pay for your sins. 

 

 

 

By "exposing" us you have proved your true intentions, That after a war instigated by yourself and many others, That after a war in which BOTH sides lost, You still hold your greed above your head. You hope to put outside pressure on us, but fail to realize that you are only making it easier for us to show your true colors. 

 

We will fight on the beaches, We will fight in the Gardens, We fight on the sea.

 

We will continue to fight for guardian forever. 

Whatever you're smoking, I want some too.

 

Stop acting like Guardian was a single entity that caused this. The leadership was the one who wanted those attacks, and we were told the entire reason for attacking was to stop VE from hitting us first. Everything ever said by our leadership was in theory, besides that. 

The membership is responsible for the actions of its leadership. You tolerated them when times were good so you'll face the consequences of bad times.

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I'm not very knowledgeable in Orbis geopolitics, so bear with me here if I get anything wrong. But to my understanding:

Justice- An idea you have perverted, because you clearly see yourself as faultless. The maxim "I did it because I was ordered" may somehow justify your actions in your mind, but (unfortunately!) draws great parallels with the Nuremberg Trials; where hundreds of Nazis used that defense in order to justify their atrocities. "Shellhound did it" is not only convenient for you, but regrettably false. All of you had a hand in it by simply fighting.

 

Honor- "You would've started it if we hadn't, and things would have turned out much differently" THEN LET THEM START IT AND LET THINGS TURN OUT DIFFERENTLY. The conviction that "we could've won, we were preempting in self defense and *sob* all of you dog-pilers suck" is the most dishonorable thing I've heard. Honor brings with it respect, and you are losing that by the second. While I personally disagree with war reparations myself, it has been used throughout the world and will continue to be used to compensate for financial damage that you started. "But wait they would've attacked us-" But then you did it, shut up please.

 

Loyalty- "You question our loyalty to see things through, and you question it through asking for termed peace." What? You ARE aware that loyalty means faithfulness to commitments or obligations, like your leader Shellhound. (I guess you had reasonable reasons, so I'm willing to yield that Shellhound point haha) But I have a hard time understanding what you are being loyal to here- unless of course, you are being loyal to a commitment to "keep fighting no matter what". (In which case you'll be crushed, so that doesn't sound reasonable.) Otherwise, your point doesn't make sense :D

Modus ponendo ponens, perhaps the Orbis community could teach Guardian a thing or two about their own tenets, which they seem to have perverted or misunderstood completely.

 

As much as Russell's post contained a lot of windy rhetoric that will all blow away on a windy day, let's not make parallels to Naziism

 

 

Stop acting like Guardian was a single entity that caused this. The leadership was the one who wanted those attacks, and we were told the entire reason for attacking was to stop VE from hitting us first. Everything ever said by our leadership was in theory, besides that.

Keep in mind this is the same argument GPA used when you attacked them for the actions of their leadership. You can't have it both ways.

Edited by rapmanej
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As much as Russell's post contained a lot of windy rhetoric that will all blow away on a windy day, let's not make parallels to Naziism

Why? It's a historical fact, and is similarly displayed here on Orbis.
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Why? It's a historical fact, and is similarly displayed here on Orbis.

As arrogant as Guardian/SK are being, I wasn't aware that they were participating in genocide.

Edited by rapmanej

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As arrogant as Guardian/SK are being, I wasn't aware that they were participating in genocide.

From VE's perspective, it very well might seem that way. It's all a matter of perspective.

 

Just playing devils advocate here.

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From VE's perspective, it very well might seem that way. It's all a matter of perspective.

 

Just playing devils advocate here.

It doesn't, but we appreciate the support nonetheless :P

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Sadly, when a country invades another country, they don't round up the soldiers of the one being invaded and send them home. No, they send them to POW camps even though the soldiers were only following orders to defend. The only way for you to get out is to leave or face the consequences. When the piper comes for you, then you have to pay, or you lose your children.

 

Just the way she goes, my friend. I am sorry for that, but that's just the way it is.

 

Jroc please tell me you're not comparing RL POWs to our pixels.  Please.

 

And the rest of you should go read & comment on my Causus Belli thread in the Orbis Central subforum. </shameless plug>

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Thanks for taking the bait. Please, continue to try to pin this on me. 

 

 

You can be nicer, sure, but please try to be more correct. Numerous times I've said Guardian is beatable, hell I've encouraged people to stand up to it, Ashland being one of those people. Cry like a toddler? Hardly, I merely laughing at the stupidity of demanding reps, and those pushing for it not understanding the downside to dragging out the war. Their Ignorance is making me laugh. 

 

You want an honest post about the situation rather than me trolling? Fine. 

 

Let me be clear, when I left Guardian, I left Guardian. I'm not their leader, their successes or failures are no longer on my shoulders. Do I want to see them do well? Of course. But in no way are Shellhound and Tenages actions in this a reflection of myself. The plot against VE was entirely theirs and whomever else was involved. You could count UPNs involvement as perhaps a reflection of actions taken from Marionette, but there's no way UPN would have entered without Shellhound's spying, and SK's backstabbery plot. VE-sphere would have been rolled as likely DEIC/SK would have been on Guardians side in all this, as would have Vanguard/TEst, with a possible UPN/BoC in the wings due to treaty ties with DEIC. The lose of this way by Guardian/SK/Mensa is largely on Tenages shoulders for his plots against Rose, Shellhounds for spying, and to a degree Pfieffer for it would seem that people just don't like him. Things were slated for a massive rolling of VE-Sphere. Instead it flipped due to the [email protected]#$ ups of the current leaders. Their alliances have paid/are paying for their mistakes and one of the alliances got rid of their leader. You want to peruse reps? I honestly think you're an idiot. It's for two reasons, one is the one I mentioned before. You have over 100 members, asking for 100 mil, if the average cost upkeep wise for the extra military is 250k, in 4 days you're costing your alliance 100M, not to mention whatever resource production slots their using for military buildings. Second, you've set the precedent. These games are ups and downs, and with how easy it was to get a coalition to roll you before it will happen again sooner or later, and asking demanding reps ensures you're enemies will remain enemies, only with more vested interest in taking you down. When that does happen, they will ask for harsher terms than yours. You're trying to bring other worlds rules into this world. For that I consider you to be a joke. A bad joke. Enjoy your time in the sun. I would say you've earned it, VE, but you did nothing besides get your asses kicked and have everyone else help you. The amount of [email protected]#$ talking I've heard from your so-called friends about how inept you guys are is fairly funny. 

 

As evidenced by Robsters reply, you truly are out of touch. The rest of my post before was me just fanning your flame a bit because I find it funny when you go off the handle, but that part I'm serious about. Since before you even stepped down as leader of Guardian, you really haven't had a clue whats been going on around you. 

 

The world changed. Things evolve over time, and the little happy picture of Orbis you once had with Guardian untouchable at the top got shattered as things became more complex and politics got more intricate. No one is trying to bring rules from others worlds into this one, this world is just growing up. I highly suggest you do so along with it.

Edited by Impero
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Jroc please tell me you're not comparing RL POWs to our pixels.  Please.

 

And the rest of you should go read & comment on my Causus Belli thread in the Orbis Central subforum. </shameless plug>

 

Done. :P

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As evidenced by Robsters reply, you truly are out of touch. The rest of my post before was me just fanning your flame a bit because I find it funny when you go off the handle, but that part I'm serious about. Since before you even stepped down as leader of Guardian, you really haven't had a clue whats been going on around you.

 

The world changed. Things evolve over time, and the little happy picture of Orbis you once had with Guardian untouchable at the top got shattered as things became more complex and politics got more intricate. No one is trying to bring rules from others worlds into this one, this world is just growing up. I highly suggest you do so along with it.

You are the one that's confused over where you stand. We know the level (or lack of) of our political and military power. You have committed yourselves to a long war or to looking like a fool. And that hasn't really registered with you yet.

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You are the one that's confused over where you stand. We know the level (or lack of) of our political and military power. You have committed yourselves to a long war or to looking like a fool. And that hasn't really registered with you yet.

 

Haven't you read this thread or the OP? Long war. You chose long war. 

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Haven't you read this thread or the OP? Long war. You chose long war.

Good. Never go back on your non-negotiable terms.

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Holy [email protected]#$, a lot of you have been drinking the kool-aid.

No they haven't, they're still alive and chatting away.

 

While I'd normally agree with SK/Guard that VE would lose more money in their lower tiers, that's completely nullified by the fact that the top tiers in this game can send unlimited aid to the bottom tiers. I've said it before and I'll say it again, every war in this game has, and likely shall, continue to be won by the side with the larger top tier.

 

Also, there is something really important within the game itself that most parties here are conveniently ignoring or simply don't know the extent of.

Edited by underlordgc

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Jroc please tell me you're not comparing RL POWs to our pixels.  Please.

 

And the rest of you should go read & comment on my Causus Belli thread in the Orbis Central subforum. </shameless plug>

No I was not my friend. I was merely stating that when your government does stuff that you don't like, you still bear the repercussions for those actions. But, I could see how it could be construed like that and I hope my reply brings some clarity.

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Perhaps you don't understand our conviction. 

When I first joined the war, i did so because i was ordered. I lost roughly 10k infrastructure in the matter of a week. When I first was hit by your allies, and the dog piliers, i had no reprieve from this- i was blockaded for a week. When i decided to check our forums, and saw that you required us to submit several times more in bank and resources to you for reps, i was angered. I lost more than many of your men. I was content for white peace. Shellhound stepped down, and the new leadership took over. The war that was leaked by some of your own people, the war that you wanted- Was on our heads for preemptively trying to disarm your ability to fight. If we did accept the terms, we would be paying not for our meddling, but your own. There had never been an intention for Guardian to attack rose. There had only been an intention to incapacitate you to the point you could no longer have done us any harm.  

 

 

Then why was this not in the CB when you attacked?  You can't just attack, unprovoked, and come back claiming, "We were protecting ourselves from your planned attack."  That isn't how it works.  

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o/ VE

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