A Note on Guardian and The Seven Kingdoms

[Clarke]

Guardian's thread isn't much different than the one you created Saru, http://politicsandwar.com/forums/index.php?/topic/4067-upn-announcement/.

Ultimately Guardian is looking to bring attention to it which is partly what you did. 

[Memph]

I have been working with VE for a significant period of time, and I am confident that if they had any plans to go after Guardian, they would of informed us. They didn't. So I very much doubt this information, particularly when VE aren't known to reveal that kind of stuff to ordinary members anyway -- and that's the mask that Shellhound's account had. It was pretty much common knowledge for awhile that Guardian/SK were going to go after VE aggressively, and I feel like all of rumours of VE doing the same was just to justify it to your members/the public.

 

 

The point is that the initial plan was to hit them first, and in the end, you still hit them first. You were the aggressors, and you lost the war. It really is that simple.

 

 

The way I see it is that if a rogue hits an alliance, then it is upto that alliance to decide when and how the rogue gets peace. That's a consequence of their actions. Also didn't you guys demand reps on Emily's/Clarke's behalf when he left DEIC and went rogue on you?

There were posts about preparing for war with Guardian but I didn't say they were planning on explicitly initiating a war against us.

 

Regarding Emily I think it was just one or two members that wanted reps on Emily's behalf but I don't remember Prefontaine asking for them.

[Saru]

Guardian's thread isn't much different than the one you created Saru, http://politicsandwar.com/forums/index.php?/topic/4067-upn-announcement/.

Ultimately Guardian is looking to bring attention to it which is partly what you did. 

 

Except that I knew that there were some tensions already existed, and wanted to further play on those tensions. We knew that Rose somewhat appreciated us letting them go after a week of a half-assed war. At the time we were also very close to agreeing peace with Rose/TEst. So it was calculated, and not something that was going to cause us issues. I feel like Guardian bringing this up on the OWF is merely going to complicate their exit. But I guess that's their call.

[Clarke]

Except that I knew that there were some tensions already existed, and wanted to further play on those tensions. We knew that Rose somewhat appreciated us letting them go after a week of a half-assed war. At the time we were also very close to agreeing peace with Rose/TEst. So it was calculated, and not something that was going to cause us issues. I feel like Guardian bringing this up on the OWF is merely going to complicate their exit. But I guess that's their call.

Well that's why I say partly but yeah there was some obvious disagreements.

We will have to see but I'm sure that SK and Guardian had the same views that you do now, on it complicating things for our exit. 

[Saru]

 

There were quite a few missiles launched against us by DEIC, mostly against our high infra nations, I agree other damage was insignificant but the money put into war prep that allowed us to do the damage we did was not. I had 6 cities at the time with 800 infra in each, and was about even with DEIC's #10-15 nations. I think we did about 200 infra damage per city per nation, so about $3-6 million in damages at that level per nation. I think it was about 30 vs 20 on the Guardian vs DEIC front (DEIC had other nations on top of those 20 facing Rose).

 

$6m x 20 = $120m in damages

 

Guardian spent about $120m on militarizing, fuel and ammo.

 

The DEIC nations I was facing should have been making about $750k pre-war and maybe $500k after the infra loss, so the infra damage should not have taken too long to rebuild. Even if you went from 800 infra to nothing which did not happen that would have only been $7.3m in damage or about 10 days worth of pre-war peace time income. 

 

So Guardian members had something along the lines of

7 days prep + 10 days war + 1-2 days fixing improvements + 1 day rebuilding infra = 20 days

 

vs DEIC

~2 days prep + 10 days war + 1-2 days fixing improvements + 10 days rebuilding infra = 25 days

 

These are just rough calculations of course, but I don't think they're too far off. And part of the reason why DEIC had a superior upper tier was their smaller war chest, Guardian started building our war chest weeks before the war, putting aside a little every day, we actually had about $200m in war chest but didn't spend it all. Guardian probably could've have closed much of that gap with DEIC if we had spent our war chest on building up our cities.

 

I've taken about $65-70m in infra damages this war, plus about $35m worth of war chest. I was making about $2m pre-war but would only be making about $1m now with my infra losses.

 

17 days prep + 14 days of war + 1-2 days fixing improvements + ~50 days rebuilding infra = 80+ days worth of falling behind compared to neutrals

 

No matter how you adjust the exact numbers I'm pretty sure this one is putting a bigger dent on growth.

 

I dispute a lot of your figures, and don't think your sunk costs were anywhere near as high as you claim. Just because we were defenseless, and unable to damage your units. Therefore you got a lot of your resources back. Whereas we invested in military units that we started building 2 days or so before the war, which got wiped out completely on day 1. Also I know you are only talking about DEIC, because that's who Guardian engaged with the most, but UPN specifically faced even greater odds, and greater damages in monetary terms. Like I said, you have to keep in mind that Rose/SK/Guardian were virtually not damaged at all, and your "damages" were only lost growth. In this war, you guys attacked first and were fairly well stocked up in terms of units, meaning that we had a lot of sunk costs in our own units lost, and war caused a lot more damage to the us than we did to you in the last war. And like I said, to me the biggest point is that it was so early on in the game.

 

But I feel like we are going on in circles now, so let's just leave it at that. I doubt I will get you to come to terms with my perspective, and I just can't see you proving your point.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Saru

[PigInZen]

well now. isn't this a nice place to stroll in to.

 

I have to say, I'm generally surprised at the levels of disrespect certain Rose members have pointed at their Guardian allies but i digress on this....

 

The first and very foremost issue that I have issue with is in the idea that reparations are a universal term for peace that has been established. This is beyond wrong. The very first case of reparations that have been sought was your demand from Mensa. This act will for sure be remembered in Orbis history to come where we begin the slippery slope of peace demands that have torn many of other worlds apart. No matter how "evil" we may have seemed, we have always held to the belief that reparations are without a doubt horrible for the people of this world

Oh great so it's Mensa's fault.</sarcasm>

Edited June 2, 2015 by PigInZen

[Rozalia]

I really appreciate the posts Memph is making on this matter. I'd have just gone with the reps as it seems the softest way out as they aren't exactly massively excessive or anything... but while Guardian/SK may believe that further resistance will get those reps to be dropped (and they are likely correct on that I think), VE has an obligation of sorts you could say to cause further damage that is significantly greater than the cost of reps especially after already having Mensa accept their terms as I'm sure VE wouldn't want Mensa feeling screwed in the matter. 

 

If they cause enough damage for a while longer and than white peace... than both parties can in essence claim a victory. At least that is how I see it. 

[Kamea Arano]

Reps.. YAY! reps.. Oh wait.. Reps.. how many times did i just say Reps.

Edited June 2, 2015 by 0zon3

[WarGod0001]

Reps are good for both sides. The victor gets monies and the losers can use it to fuel their grudge and use it as a decent CB for the next war. Everybody wins.

lol, agreed!! However, a CB doesn't seem to be their top priority judging by this war.

 

Impero, you nailed this one. If they want to cry, let them cry. In the end, the damage will be done and the reps will look like a really good deal they should have taken.

[Goldie]

Memph, the difference between these reps and any Bob reps, is that these could have been paid in full in a few days. We aren't talking about subjugation, we're talking about token compensation, a 'round of aid'.

[Impero]

 

 

One of the things Shellhound found out while spying was that VE was preparing for war with us soon after we hit GPA. 

 

 

 

Let's put this to bed right now.

 

This is false.

 

Not only is it false, there is no way that it can be true. It's not how we work. Everyone who is in Viridia or ever has been in Viridia can confirm that the general membership of our alliance has absolutely no idea who we are going to go to war with until seconds before a blitz happens, and they are 100% in the dark about any plans for war. The Viridian Entente is an autocracy. We do not discuss our plans with our membership (much to their dismay), and everything political is kept in the highest levels of government, which is myself and my Secretaries. This is why you never see any leaks from VE here or in any other worlds, because no one knows anything.

 

If there was a plan to attack you after you hit GPA, which there absolutely wasn't, there is no possible way Shellhound's multi would have known.

 

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and chose to believe that you aren't outright lying but rather are just mistaken on something Shellhound said, probably in regard to us raising alert level during the GPA conflict. When we raise alert level, we don't give our membership an explanation (sometimes afterwards we do, if it is already been made public otherwise), because as I said we keep all plans close to the chest, and this causes them to speculate (and complain about how terrible we are if war doesn't happen and they militarize anyway). We did raise alert level during the GPA conflict, because Prefontaine said he was going to attack members of GPA who had joined Viridia, so I'm guessing that's where your confusion was.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Impero

[Belisarius]

We did raise alert level during the GPA conflict, because Prefontaine said he was going to attack members of GPA who had joined Viridia, so I'm guessing that's where your confusion was.

 

I assume you have logs/screenshots to substantiate this? Because if so, that pretty much eliminates any pretense that VE were the aggressors in this war, as some have contended here and elsewhere. 

[Impero]

I assume you have logs/screenshots to substantiate this? Because if so, that pretty much eliminates any pretense that VE were the aggressors in this war, as some have contended here and elsewhere. 

 

Sure, you can also just look in Pre's DoW on GPA, he publically talks about it there, it wasn't a secret or anything.

 

01[12:12] <Impero[VE]> i know thatguy under a different name, tarikmo, from when he was a long time viridian in (That terrible game that is totally irrelevant and I shouldn&#39;t be bringing it up anyways)

01[12:12] <Impero[VE]> so he is accepted, period

[12:12] <Prefontaine> Well I guess we will be at war come Sunday then.

01[12:13] <Impero[VE]> i get the feeling that is what you have been aiming for all along

01[12:13] <Impero[VE]> if that is your response

[12:13] <Prefontaine> You apparently don't know me well.

[12:13] <Prefontaine> If I wanted to go after VE, I wouldn't need the smoke screen.

01[12:13] <Impero[VE]> and you apparently dont know how alliances work very well

[12:13] <Prefontaine> I wanted to go after GPA.

01[12:13] <Impero[VE]> you dont get to dictate who we dont accept

01[12:13] <Impero[VE]> that is not your place

01[12:14] <Impero[VE]> if you try to, we go to war

01[12:14] <Impero[VE]> and everyone will know why

01[12:14] <Impero[VE]> you are not moo, this isnt (That terrible game that is totally irrelevant and I shouldn&#39;t be bringing it up anyways) in 2008, and guardian isnt the NPO

[12:14] <Prefontaine> (That terrible game that is totally irrelevant and I shouldn&#39;t be bringing it up anyways) refrences are wasted.

01[12:15] <Impero[VE]> if you dont get the refrence, basically im saying you dont run this game

[12:15] <Prefontaine> I'm dictating any member from GPA who leaves after they were informed of the attack.

01[12:15] <Impero[VE]> and you dont run Viridia

01[12:15] <Impero[VE]> nor will you, ever.

[12:15] <Prefontaine> If you want to bring you and your allies to war over a war deserter.

[12:15] <Prefontaine> Someone who flees at the first wiff of a fight.

[12:15] <Prefontaine> By all means, you have the right to.

01[12:15] <Impero[VE]> we will bring everything we can possibly muster over protecting our members

01[12:15] <Impero[VE]> everything

01[12:16] <Impero[VE]> hes not a war deserter, you arent at war

01[12:16] <Impero[VE]> he is a former VE member who wanted to rejoin us in peace time and was accepted

Edited June 2, 2015 by Impero

[Verlion]

Let's put this to bed right now.

 

This is false.

 

Not only is it false, there is no way that it can be true. It's not how we work. Everyone who is in Viridia or ever has been in Viridia can confirm that the general membership of our alliance has absolutely no idea who we are going to go to war with until seconds before a blitz happens, and they are 100% in the dark about any plans for war. The Viridian Entente is an autocracy. We do not discuss our plans with our membership (much to their dismay), and everything political is kept in the highest levels of government, which is myself and my Secretaries. This is why you never see any leaks from VE here or in any other worlds, because no one knows anything.

 

If there was a plan to attack you after you hit GPA, which there absolutely wasn't, there is no possible way Shellhound's multi would have known.

 

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and chose to believe that you aren't outright lying but rather are just mistaken on something Shellhound said, probably in regard to us raising alert level during the GPA conflict. When we raise alert level, we don't give our membership an explanation (sometimes afterwards we do, if it is already been made public otherwise), because as I said we keep all plans close to the chest, and this causes them to speculate (and complain about how terrible we are if war doesn't happen and they militarize anyway). We did raise alert level during the GPA conflict, because Prefontaine said he was going to attack members of GPA who had joined Viridia, so I'm guessing that's where your confusion was.

 

Long term VE member, both in (That terrible game that is totally irrelevant and I shouldn&#39;t be bringing it up anyways) and here and Impero's right on everything. VE Gov is really tight lipped about this kind of stuff and I honestly laugh at the thought of VE having information leaked out. If our active regular members don't know squat, I seriously doubt some punk in another alliance has any, lol.

[George W. Bush]

-image removed for filter evasion-

[Sweeeeet Ronny D]

<Prefontaine> I would strongly consider against accepting any GPA applicants.
<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> he is a former VE member
<Prefontaine> Well I guess you'll have to go to war for him then.
<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> you guys havent declared war yet
<Prefontaine> You know they're being hit.
<Prefontaine> And he fled once he found out.
<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> do they know?
<Prefontaine> They know.
<Prefontaine> I've seen screen shots of their forums.
<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> you will have to talk with Impero about it then
<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> hit him up tomorrow afternoon then
<Prefontaine> If you want to drag your alliance to war over a member who flees when word of a war is coming.
<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> dont make threats to me
<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> talk to impero
<Prefontaine> I'm not making a threat.
<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> <Prefontaine> If you want to drag your alliance to war over a member who flees when word of a war is coming.
<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> that is a threat
<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> but yeah just go talk to impero
<Prefontaine> No. It's what would happen.
<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> dude im not going to play this game with you
<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> just talk it out with impero
<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> despite popular belief, i dont have an issue with you guys. so if you have problems with VE, talk to the boss, and get it resolved thru him
<Prefontaine> I have issue with alliances accepting war deserters.
<Prefontaine> That's it.
<Prefontaine> I've sent a similar message of "I would advise against accepting GPA applicants" to the other alliance involved.
<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> cool, like i have said 4 times now, talk to impero.
<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> but thanks for the heads up
<Prefontaine> You're in charge of war.
<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> im not incharge of accepting members
<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> if you hit us, then I get involved
<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> but we dont have any plans to hit you, so I am just a spectator in your show
<Prefontaine> I've no plans to hit you unless you provide harbor to those fleeing after they found out a war is coming.
<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> ok we are just saying the same thing over and over again
<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> I understand your view
<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> and you will need to discuss your issues with impero, because its not my call

 

 

FYI, this is prefontaine threatening me, before he threated Impero.

 

So if you wonder why some of us don't like Guardian, and why we militarized at the start of the GPA war, here you go, this is why.  Big bully Guardian, was throwing its weight around, and because of game mechanics, it takes 4-5 days to actually build up, so a bunch of us did.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Sweeeeet Ronny D

[Belisarius]

Those logs do exemplify why so many detest Guardian. And why the current situation has elicited so much schadenfreude. 

 

Keep on rocking, VE o/

[Sweeeeet Ronny D]

Side note, if I understand this correctly, Memph, you guys knew Shellhound had multi's in VE, and despite this, you guys made him your leader after pre stepped down. But it wasn't until he got caught, that you removed him from office...  This is why when you guys come on to the OWF, and proclaim that you have changed, I have an extremely difficult time taking that proclamation seriously.

 

Also from what I understand, you didn't have an issue paying reps, and we expected you and Mensa to come out at the same time, until SK put up a big fit about it.  So what that tells me, is that all this crap about you thinking its bad for the game is bull, and really you are trying to support your allies (which actually the correct move)  If you said as much, it would actually show that you are moving toward trying to change, but instead we just get more lies and smoke screens from your camp.

 

I'm gonna go super dork right now, because Jon Snow has joined the conversation, if you guys saw GoT last Sunday, you guys remind me of Cersei, who was stuck in a dungeon, and offered a drink and salvation if she only admitted the crimes she committed, but her pride prevented her from doing so, so instead, she is forced to try to suck split water off the ground.  (fyi you guys are Cersei) 

 

You guys lost, your leadership maneuvered you into a corner, and they continue to dig deeper into that corner, and its blatantly apparent that the only reason you are refusing to pay what we are asking for is because you need to get one last, "screw you we won" to satisfy your pride in a war where pretty much every move you have made was the wrong one.

[Tim Armstrong]

Side note, if I understand this correctly, Memph, you guys knew Shellhound had multi's in VE, and despite this, you guys made him your leader after pre stepped down. But it wasn't until he got caught, that you removed him from office...  This is why when you guys come on to the OWF, and proclaim that you have changed, I have an extremely difficult time taking that proclamation seriously.

Sweeeeet Ronny D, none of us in Guardian knew that Shellhound had multis until he had been exposed and admitted to it. Our members did not support what he did and we acted as quickly as possible to replace him despite the dog pile we were under. We are fortunate that Memph stepped up as he is a reasonable and fair person who acts on behalf of our members.

[Saru]

 

 

I'm gonna go super dork right now, because Jon Snow has joined the conversation, if you guys saw GoT last Sunday, you guys remind me of Cersei, who was stuck in a dungeon, and offered a drink and salvation if she only admitted the crimes she committed, but her pride prevented her from doing so, so instead, she is forced to try to suck split water off the ground.  (fyi you guys are Cersei) 

 

I found the part where you had to clarify that they were Cersei the most hilarious.     

 

Although it's probably needed given the amount of people that seem to think they are in any position of power in this situation.

[Sweeeeet Ronny D]

Sweeeeet Ronny D, none of us in Guardian knew that Shellhound had multis until he had been exposed and admitted to it. Our members did not support what he did and we acted as quickly as possible to replace him despite the dog pile we were under. We are fortunate that Memph stepped up as he is a reasonable and fair person who acts on behalf of our members.

Fair enough, I reread Memph's response, and if what he says is true, then you are correct.

[Saru]

Sweeeeet Ronny D, none of us in Guardian knew that Shellhound had multis until he had been exposed and admitted to it. Our members did not support what he did and we acted as quickly as possible to replace him despite the dog pile we were under. We are fortunate that Memph stepped up as he is a reasonable and fair person who acts on behalf of our members.

 

Sounds to me like he not only disappointed some of you by cheating and planting spies in UPN/VE, but also spread misinformation about VE apparently gunning for Guardian.

[Fiddler]

Wars are too expensive to waged for the lulz. Start one, better be sure you will win or pay through the nose.

I personally wouldn't have been as lenient as VE leadership

[Kadin]

<Prefontaine> I would strongly consider against accepting any GPA applicants.

<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> he is a former VE member

<Prefontaine> Well I guess you'll have to go to war for him then.

<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> you guys havent declared war yet

<Prefontaine> You know they're being hit.

<Prefontaine> And he fled once he found out.

<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> do they know?

<Prefontaine> They know.

<Prefontaine> I've seen screen shots of their forums.

<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> you will have to talk with Impero about it then

<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> hit him up tomorrow afternoon then

<Prefontaine> If you want to drag your alliance to war over a member who flees when word of a war is coming.

<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> dont make threats to me

<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> talk to impero

<Prefontaine> I'm not making a threat.

<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> <Prefontaine> If you want to drag your alliance to war over a member who flees when word of a war is coming.

<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> that is a threat

<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> but yeah just go talk to impero

<Prefontaine> No. It's what would happen.

<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> dude im not going to play this game with you

<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> just talk it out with impero

<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> despite popular belief, i dont have an issue with you guys. so if you have problems with VE, talk to the boss, and get it resolved thru him

<Prefontaine> I have issue with alliances accepting war deserters.

<Prefontaine> That's it.

<Prefontaine> I've sent a similar message of "I would advise against accepting GPA applicants" to the other alliance involved.

<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> cool, like i have said 4 times now, talk to impero.

<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> but thanks for the heads up

<Prefontaine> You're in charge of war.

<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> im not incharge of accepting members

<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> if you hit us, then I get involved

<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> but we dont have any plans to hit you, so I am just a spectator in your show

<Prefontaine> I've no plans to hit you unless you provide harbor to those fleeing after they found out a war is coming.

<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> ok we are just saying the same thing over and over again

<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> I understand your view

<Sweeeeet_Ronny_D> and you will need to discuss your issues with impero, because its not my call

 

 

FYI, this is prefontaine threatening me, before he threated Impero.

 

So if you wonder why some of us don't like Guardian, and why we militarized at the start of the GPA war, here you go, this is why.  Big bully Guardian, was throwing its weight around, and because of game mechanics, it takes 4-5 days to actually build up, so a bunch of us did.

 

 

 

Sure, you can also just look in Pre's DoW on GPA, he publically talks about it there, it wasn't a secret or anything.

 

01[12:12] <Impero[VE]> i know thatguy under a different name, tarikmo, from when he was a long time viridian in (That terrible game that is totally irrelevant and I shouldn&#39;t be bringing it up anyways)

01[12:12] <Impero[VE]> so he is accepted, period

[12:12] <Prefontaine> Well I guess we will be at war come Sunday then.

01[12:13] <Impero[VE]> i get the feeling that is what you have been aiming for all along

01[12:13] <Impero[VE]> if that is your response

[12:13] <Prefontaine> You apparently don't know me well.

[12:13] <Prefontaine> If I wanted to go after VE, I wouldn't need the smoke screen.

01[12:13] <Impero[VE]> and you apparently dont know how alliances work very well

[12:13] <Prefontaine> I wanted to go after GPA.

01[12:13] <Impero[VE]> you dont get to dictate who we dont accept

01[12:13] <Impero[VE]> that is not your place

01[12:14] <Impero[VE]> if you try to, we go to war

01[12:14] <Impero[VE]> and everyone will know why

01[12:14] <Impero[VE]> you are not moo, this isnt (That terrible game that is totally irrelevant and I shouldn&#39;t be bringing it up anyways) in 2008, and guardian isnt the NPO

[12:14] <Prefontaine> (That terrible game that is totally irrelevant and I shouldn&#39;t be bringing it up anyways) refrences are wasted.

01[12:15] <Impero[VE]> if you dont get the refrence, basically im saying you dont run this game

[12:15] <Prefontaine> I'm dictating any member from GPA who leaves after they were informed of the attack.

01[12:15] <Impero[VE]> and you dont run Viridia

01[12:15] <Impero[VE]> nor will you, ever.

[12:15] <Prefontaine> If you want to bring you and your allies to war over a war deserter.

[12:15] <Prefontaine> Someone who flees at the first wiff of a fight.

[12:15] <Prefontaine> By all means, you have the right to.

01[12:15] <Impero[VE]> we will bring everything we can possibly muster over protecting our members

01[12:15] <Impero[VE]> everything

01[12:16] <Impero[VE]> hes not a war deserter, you arent at war

01[12:16] <Impero[VE]> he is a former VE member who wanted to rejoin us in peace time and was accepted

 

 

Thank you both for the excellent and informative logs. I think it's clear at this point that all the justifications and excuses they have to offer are nothing but air after all. If anyone is tempted to think that Shellhound may have been different, allow me to inform you: The only difference is his utter incompetence, even by comparison to Prefontaine.

[Adama]

This thread is like a salt mine.