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40 minutes ago, Sir Scarfalot said:

Words

That was less of a wall of text, and more like a fence of text. I don't fully disagree with what was said either. I've always said mass tier consolidation is bad at any tier. 

Edited by Prefontaine
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3 minutes ago, Prefontaine said:

That was less of a wall of text, and more like a fence of text. I don't fully disagree with what was said either. I've always said mass tier consolidation is bad at any tier. 

Well, it seems we're agreed then. Hopefully my fears aren't justified ¯\_(ツ)_/¯



Also I edited the hell out of my post due to tremendously bad formatting, would you be so kind as to re-quote me please?

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28 minutes ago, Sir Scarfalot said:

(Spoilered because wordy scarfpost wall o text, tl;dr at bottom)

  Reveal hidden contents

I would argue that for what TKRsphere is in the top tier, IQ and Syndisphere are for the mid and low tiers. Yes, the top tier is richer. Yes, the top tiers have long since become able to spend more on growth for lack of needing to actually spend money in any form other than rapidly maturing investments. Yes, I agree that TKRsphere is long overdue for their rolling. TKRsphere represents a balance problem, I don't dispute any of that.

What I'm saying is that TKRsphere's economic snowballing at the top tier is far from P&W's only potential or actual balance problem. IQ and Syndisphere's growth potential and military potential outstrips the economic and military potential of TKRsphere by a factor of at least two due to player-count alone, and with their dominance of the mid-tier they present a daunting problem for any potential recruitment effort by TKRsphere for the remainder of the war. Sure, TKRsphere can be/is a safe and comfy retirement home for whales, but how many more whales come into existence every day compared to how fast and intensely IQ and Syndisphere are capable of growing? And unless IQ/Syndisphere literally decide to stop growing, then their updeclare range will eventually intersect TKRsphere's top tier regardless purely due to the exponentially mounting costs of new cities at the top tier. If IQ maintains relations with Syndisphere and together they sit upon the "throne" of the game, then there is simply no bloc nor set of blocs that could do anything interesting involving them. Once that happens, the majority of the game will indeed be united, and all spheres outside of that bloc will be unable to tier themselves out of striking range or engage in any meaningful way outside of being dogpiled or huge updeclares. At that point what possible powers would be or even potentially could be there to oppose them? I've seen this pattern in about a dozen of these games by now, and I have never once seen this pattern fail to result in the servers ultimately becoming barren, the communities emigrating to living games.

The point that I'm trying to make is that for all the potential good this power shift can do, the threat of the major blocs going easy-mode is still very much there, and something that both IQ and Syndisphere stand to gain much by. Why wouldn't they take the throne and not give it up? Why wouldn't they replace TKRsphere as the easy-mode, no-risk, forever growing safe zone, only instead of there being a coalition twice their size able to take them down they instead outnumber the rest of the game? Easy-mode itself is the problem, not EMC; and it's an inescapable, inevitable, and in the worst case unsolvable problem no matter how large nor how small the hegemony is. If the hegemony became larger than the rest of the game combined, and it chose to never splinter, then the game would be forever lost. Yet by your logic, attempting to oppose that stagnant bloc and breathe life into the game would make everyone else the problem?

The potential for interesting things to happen and for the game to burst with vitality and dynamism is indeed here, but so is the potential for the final hegemony to ascend to an unconquerable height and end the game, forever. I don't know how to stop this doom, I don't know how to prevent it; all I know is that scenario is something I personally will always oppose. I've fought that war a dozen times, and a dozen times I've lost; all my efforts unable to prevent the game from becoming an inactive wasteland.

Tl;dr: EMC is still EMC, even if it's IQ or Syndisphere.

I have no idea what you're talking about. All I know is that I'm seeing a coalition of over half of the game dogpiling the top sphere. As good as that is, there still would be a problem if you guys decided to take that power and sit on it, playing the same easy-mode game as TKRsphere.

And hey, maybe you won't; but when it comes down to it, that's your choice to make. I only hope you're wise enough to not be hypocritical and not do exactly what you're condemning TKRsphere for.

I suppose time will tell.

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Just wait until BK absorbs the Syndicate, then the new EMC hegemony will be complete.

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1 minute ago, Dad said:

Just wait until BK absorbs the Syndicate, then the new EMC hegemony will be complete.

Exactly, this guy gets it

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2 hours ago, Sir Scarfalot said:

Exactly, this guy gets it

Working with BK is the first step to being absorbed. The Syndi Knights will soon rise! 

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5 hours ago, Prefontaine said:

Didn't mean to ramble. Guess I should join Grumpy post war. 

100.gif

 

 

while i would take you if you pick up another few cities, right now you are too small to join.

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11 minutes ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

while i would take you if you pick up another few cities, right now you are too small to join.

Can I join

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17 minutes ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

while i would take you if you pick up another few cities, right now you are too small to join.

I’m also interested in sitting around doing nothing but hoarding pixels and consolidating the mega-whale tier, would I be able to join?

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1 hour ago, Prefonteen said:

Can I join

hop on over, approved!

57 minutes ago, Justin076 said:

I’m also interested in sitting around doing nothing but hoarding pixels and consolidating the mega-whale tier, would I be able to join?

Application declined.

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It cracks me up to hear Roq and Pre talk about the evils of tier consolidation.  Roq the guy that took Mensa's idea of consolidating tiers and turned it into a block sized edict.  Pre the guy that forced alliances like mine to form a secret block with other upper tier alliances so that we could protect ourselves from Test back when they were happily raiding any one or anything in range because they knew no single alliance could stop them.

The world as it currently stands was formed in part by both of your actions, so while I don't begrudge you all teaming up to take us down, get off your pedestal, because you both are guilty of what you claim is the reason you are doing things.  If you think this war is going to change who we are allied with or how we do business... when IQ was getting rolled, did that cause you to change or did you double down? (I wont use Test as an example here, because history has taught us what happens when Test faces a real challenge.)

Real talk Pre, you want to take us down because we are a threat to you.  Test cant do Test things without the threat of Grumpy putting you in your place.  I have had 3 different requests from different alliance leaders asking us to roll you since you reformed, which includes alliances you are currently fighting with.

 

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5 minutes ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

I have had 3 different requests from different alliance leaders asking us to roll you since you reformed, which includes alliances you are currently fighting with.

 

Logs plz ❤️

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33 minutes ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

It cracks me up to hear Roq and Pre talk about the evils of tier consolidation.  Roq the guy that took Mensa's idea of consolidating tiers and turned it into a block sized edict.  Pre the guy that forced alliances like mine to form a secret block with other upper tier alliances so that we could protect ourselves from Test back when they were happily raiding any one or anything in range because they knew no single alliance could stop them.

The world as it currently stands was formed in part by both of your actions, so while I don't begrudge you all teaming up to take us down, get off your pedestal, because you both are guilty of what you claim is the reason you are doing things.  If you think this war is going to change who we are allied with or how we do business... when IQ was getting rolled, did that cause you to change or did you double down? (I wont use Test as an example here, because history has taught us what happens when Test faces a real challenge.)

Real talk Pre, you want to take us down because we are a threat to you.  Test cant do Test things without the threat of Grumpy putting you in your place.  I have had 3 different requests from different alliance leaders asking us to roll you since you reformed, which includes alliances you are currently fighting with.

 

In that case, they should literally sit on you for 2-3 months and "catch-up" in city count. There's no incentive to let this war finish quickly, and every incentive to hold you down if you don't plan on changing your ways. I honestly think that if the playing field was a little more leveled(which, if they hold you down and keep you there) then you wouldn't have secret treaties with the top tier powers in the game. :P

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9 hours ago, Sir Scarfalot said:

While true, your bloc has almost exactly the same problems for exactly the same reasons; the main difference is that TKRsphere is safer for whales while IQ and Syndisphere are fundamentally safer for lower tiers and newbies. This momentum constantly builds upon itself, results in the same compounding growth albeit with different particulars, and results in the same resentment/realpolitik against you, and if you end up truly unconquerable... then the game is over, and we're right back to CN-style stagnation. You've taken the easy-mode approach just as hard as EMC ever has, you realize that right? If your bloc gains the perception of being risk-free easy growth land, then you haven't defeated EMC... you've become it.

TKRsphere, IQ, and Syndisphere all represent exactly the same balance problems in that regard. I trust you understand that.

8 hours ago, Sir Scarfalot said:
  Reveal hidden contents

I would argue that for what TKRsphere is in the top tier, IQ and Syndisphere are for the mid and low tiers. Yes, the top tier is richer. Yes, the top tiers have long since become able to spend more on growth for lack of needing to actually spend money in any form other than rapidly maturing investments. Yes, I agree that TKRsphere is long overdue for their rolling. TKRsphere represents a balance problem, I don't dispute any of that.

What I'm saying is that TKRsphere's economic snowballing at the top tier is far from P&W's only potential or actual balance problem. IQ and Syndisphere's growth potential and military potential outstrips the economic and military potential of TKRsphere by a factor of at least two due to player-count alone, and with their dominance of the mid-tier they present a daunting problem for any potential recruitment effort by TKRsphere for the remainder of the war. Sure, TKRsphere can be/is a safe and comfy retirement home for whales, but how many more whales come into existence every day compared to how fast and intensely IQ and Syndisphere are capable of growing? And unless IQ/Syndisphere literally decide to stop growing, then their updeclare range will eventually intersect TKRsphere's top tier regardless purely due to the exponentially mounting costs of new cities at the top tier. If IQ maintains relations with Syndisphere and together they sit upon the "throne" of the game, then there is simply no bloc nor set of blocs that could do anything interesting involving them. Once that happens, the majority of the game will indeed be united, and all spheres outside of that bloc will be unable to tier themselves out of striking range or engage in any meaningful way outside of being dogpiled or huge updeclares. At that point what possible powers would be or even potentially could be there to oppose them? I've seen this pattern in about a dozen of these games by now, and I have never once seen this pattern fail to result in the servers ultimately becoming barren, the communities emigrating to living games.

The point that I'm trying to make is that for all the potential good this power shift can do, the threat of the major blocs going easy-mode is still very much there, and something that both IQ and Syndisphere stand to gain much by. Why wouldn't they take the throne and not give it up? Why wouldn't they replace TKRsphere as the easy-mode, no-risk, forever growing safe zone, only instead of there being a coalition twice their size able to take them down they instead outnumber the rest of the game? Easy-mode itself is the problem, not EMC; and it's an inescapable, inevitable, and in the worst case unsolvable problem no matter how large nor how small the hegemony is. If the hegemony became larger than the rest of the game combined, and it chose to never splinter, then the game would be forever lost. Yet by your logic, attempting to oppose that stagnant bloc and breathe life into the game would make everyone else the problem?

The potential for interesting things to happen and for the game to burst with vitality and dynamism is indeed here, but so is the potential for the final hegemony to ascend to an unconquerable height and end the game, forever. I don't know how to stop this doom, I don't know how to prevent it; all I know is that scenario is something I personally will always oppose. I've fought that war a dozen times, and a dozen times I've lost; all my efforts unable to prevent the game from becoming an inactive wasteland.

Tl;dr: EMC is still EMC, even if it's IQ or Syndisphere.

I have no idea what you're talking about. All I know is that I'm seeing a coalition of over half of the game dogpiling the top sphere. As good as that is, there still would be a problem if you guys decided to take that power and sit on it, playing the same easy-mode game as TKRsphere.

And hey, maybe you won't; but when it comes down to it, that's your choice to make. I only hope you're wise enough to not be hypocritical and not do exactly what you're condemning TKRsphere for.

While these aren't unreasonable fears, I think you're missing several important distinctions.

Pre already pointed the first out, namely that IQ has yet to become EMC. While the possibility exists, it is wrong to conflate the two groups. One has a history of being a bad actor, the other has the potential be in a position to become a bad actor.

The second is that not all hegemonies are created equal. It is much harder to challenge a concentrated upper tier than a middle tier for mechanical reasons, specifically the sheer cost and time it takes to build up to the 25-30+ city range and the profits a nation already in that range garners from its size and comparative lack of war-associated expenses (at least historically). Groups of middle tier nations are also far less stable. Even though fewer nations enter the whale tier than enter the middle tier over any given period of time, fewer leave the whale tier as well. Middle tier nations are more likely to quit, go inactive, or change alliances than upper tier nations are. This is partly because middle tier nations have less invested in the game, but it's also partly because they have less social cohesion as a group. They're more likely to be newer nations or in less exclusive, less tight-knit mass recruitment alliances like the ones in IQ.

The third distinction is that, unlike EMC's upper tier or upper tiers in general, low- and mid-tier mass recruitment alliances benefit PW as a whole. Alliances with explicit or de facto minimum city requirements for their membership don't teach new nations how to play or socialize them into PW. The fact that they get new members at all is because other alliances have done that work for them. This is a positive externality that makes mass recruitment alliances in particular and low- or mid-tier alliances in general less suspect than upper tier ones. They take on the risk of training and building new nations even though many will eventually leave for other alliances. The prosperity of such alliances isn't without its potential downsides, like you said, but the health and well-being of mass recruitment alliances is a necessary condition for the health of Orbis as a whole.

Edited by Edward I
Typos
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4 hours ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

It cracks me up to hear Roq and Pre talk about the evils of tier consolidation.  Roq the guy that took Mensa's idea of consolidating tiers and turned it into a block sized edict.  Pre the guy that forced alliances like mine to form a secret block with other upper tier alliances so that we could protect ourselves from Test back when they were happily raiding any one or anything in range because they knew no single alliance could stop them.

The world as it currently stands was formed in part by both of your actions, so while I don't begrudge you all teaming up to take us down, get off your pedestal, because you both are guilty of what you claim is the reason you are doing things.  If you think this war is going to change who we are allied with or how we do business... when IQ was getting rolled, did that cause you to change or did you double down? (I wont use Test as an example here, because history has taught us what happens when Test faces a real challenge.)

Real talk Pre, you want to take us down because we are a threat to you.  Test cant do Test things without the threat of Grumpy putting you in your place.  I have had 3 different requests from different alliance leaders asking us to roll you since you reformed, which includes alliances you are currently fighting with.

 

I never consolidated enough of a top tier where we couldn't be taken down by effectively 2 alliances on us. Had Guardian/Mensa come at us it would've been a good fight that we would have lost. When I was leading Guardian I routinely turned down treaties because it would make our sphere too dominant at the higher tier at the time. The reason TEst wasn't a consolidation threat is because we didn't cower behind every large tier alliance. We worked with Roz who was the middle tier at the time, and Arrgh who was predominantly the low tier at the time. Had any two or three major alliances come at us at that time we were screwed unless they preformed like complete shit. You however are allies with basically all the alliances that can hurt you, and the few that aren't couldn't beat you if they came at you because the others would defend you. That's the tier consolidation near which causes a problem where the likes of the rest of the game uniting still doesn't reach your numbers in a tier. 


Just because you used the rest of the game to take down TEst before, doesn't mean it was needed because we didn't have whale alliances to hide behind like you do. Your treaties are the consolidation problem, not you yourself. If you stood on your on in your tier, like TEst did, then the likes of CoS/TEst could be enough to come at you, or Guardian/tCW would definitely be enough. 

 

That's the point I'm making. If you weren't blind, you'd see. 

Edited by Prefontaine
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IQ hasn’t become “EMC” because IQ is naturally more defensive than offensive.  IQ has only initiated two wars I think?  (I’m on phone right now and can’t check easily)

IQ is definitely on the cusp of “EMC” Tier though.  Not just for tiering purposes, but the strategy of nothing but Planes really helps.  It’s interesting to note though that IQ is carrying on the same path as Syndisphere, especially with finding strategies that can be argued as broken.

There’s nothing wrong with that of course, just thought it was a interesting similarity considering the animosity between the two spheres back during those times.

As for TEst creating what GOB has done, I could add more of an opinion on that but Pre covered quite a bit of it already.  I don’t think there was ever a time that people in Syndisphere felt threatened by TEst, but were more worried about the opportunistic approach TEst could take (IE: Hitting Panth mid-war).  There was never a worry about consolidation from them.

In fact the TEst, Roz, Arrgh teamup was arguably one of the most actual “dynamic” setups in this game, with covering all tiers without dominating any tier by sheer numbers.

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4 hours ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

 

It cracks me up to hear Roq and Pre talk about the evils of tier consolidation.  Roq the guy that took Mensa's idea of consolidating tiers and turned it into a block sized edict.  Pre the guy that forced alliances like mine to form a secret block with other upper tier alliances so that we could protect ourselves from Test back when they were happily raiding any one or anything in range because they knew no single alliance could stop them.

 

The evils of tier consolidation simply put is the idea of tiers that are unscathed, and allowed to keep growing. Like Prefontaine points out in the post above, you signed up with everyone else to protect your own, leaving almost no competition in those tiers within the rest of the game. Furthermore, you (royal) doubled down on that consolidation and start warring random blocs that had any semblance of folks within the 18-22 range in separate wars, leaving EMC as a consolidated, easy mode coalition that has never been faced a difficult situation up until now, or had to play catch up from multiple rollings like most of the other folks here. That allowed for an untouched, well endowed upper tier, consolidated amongst a few, leaving few options other than doubling down on mid-tiers with the goal of eventually handling up declares and the like. We aren't sitting on a pedestal here as much as pointing out the dangers of that kind of consolidation to the health of FA as whole, especially when none of the EMC parties seemed interested to do anything but continue protecting its upper tier and growing that, with the EMC aura, which leads to further stagnation. 

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20 hours ago, Avakael said:

The problem with this plan is that we'd need your help to pull it off.

Shhh, TKR is in on it.

14 hours ago, Buorhann said:

I was actually about to post that no one in Syndisphere coined EMC till after someone else used it.  It was simply adopted in jest.

Also, EMC was only used as a coalition name for one war originally, and not a sphere name. It only really became the sphere name once the Syndicate left 'Syndisphere', making the name inaccurate of course, which then led to a new name, 'EMC', becoming generally accepted.

10 hours ago, Sir Scarfalot said:

I have no idea what you're talking about. All I know is that I'm seeing a coalition of over half of the game dogpiling the top sphere. As good as that is, there still would be a problem if you guys decided to take that power and sit on it, playing the same easy-mode game as TKRsphere.

And hey, maybe you won't; but when it comes down to it, that's your choice to make. I only hope you're wise enough to not be hypocritical and not do exactly what you're condemning TKRsphere for.

To be fair, t$ is the alliance that actively worked to break up our own hegemony :P

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3 minutes ago, Flame of the Flawed said:

To be fair, t$ is the alliance that actively worked to break up our own hegemony :P

At what point?

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15 minutes ago, Flame of the Flawed said:

To be fair, t$ is the alliance that actively worked to break up our own hegemony :P

 

Also BK at one point did? 

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Well, having been on Syndisphere (then EMC) for well over a year, I feel kinda comfortable talking about this. For the rest of the game this war was an absolute necessity. Although I actually like alliances such as Guardian, they (like TKR, TCW and GOB) have always been pragmatic FA wise. Meaning that they've always known who their enemies were and what needed to be done in order to achieve the goal (a chokehold of the upper tier, where the most economic gains are generated).

It was painfully obvious (the TCW-Guardian treaty just confirmed that) these folks weren't going anywhere, aka they wouldn't let go of their upper tier chokehold at will. So any other alliances with upper tier aspirations (CoS, TEst, or potential candidates like t$ and Rose - by aspirations I mean coexisting in an upper tier not filled with hostile / potentially hostile alliances) would have to keep looking over their shoulder if they wanted to safely grow city count wise and do relevant things without the presence of what would always have to be deemed as a threat.

Now will this war break EMC up? Probably not, since they've always been pretty close. But it will surely even the playing field more and clear, at least short / mid-term, the upper tier of a huge force that prevented anyone else from doing politically relevant stuff in that range. So thiswill at least will open the window for new things in the upper tier, rather than having the same grouping rulling it as they saw fit.

Edited by Insert Name Here
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58 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

IQ hasn’t become “EMC” because IQ is naturally more defensive than offensive.  IQ has only initiated two wars I think?  (I’m on phone right now and can’t check easily)

What I'm saying is that both IQ and TKRsphere are defensive blocs with a history of consolidating and protecting their tier and mostly declaring dogpiles as far as I'm aware, but now the potential hegemons have more players. EMC actually split up, but is there any guarantee that we'll see that happen again? And if it doesn't, what can we expect for the future but stagnation?

The hell of the situation is that it's in anyone's best interests to claim dominance and keep growing uncontested, and nobody can be reasonably blamed for acting in their own interests nor expected to act against their own interests. That people have in the past (TJest, EMC breaking up) are to my experience extraordinary circumstances that aren't

55 minutes ago, Shadowthrone said:

The evils of tier consolidation simply put is the idea of tiers that are unscathed, and allowed to keep growing. Like Prefontaine points out in the post above, you signed up with everyone else to protect your own, leaving almost no competition in those tiers within the rest of the game. Furthermore, you (royal) doubled down on that consolidation and start warring random blocs that had any semblance of folks within the 18-22 range in separate wars, leaving EMC as a consolidated, easy mode coalition that has never been faced a difficult situation up until now, or had to play catch up from multiple rollings like most of the other folks here. That allowed for an untouched, well endowed upper tier, consolidated amongst a few, leaving few options other than doubling down on mid-tiers with the goal of eventually handling up declares and the like. We aren't sitting on a pedestal here as much as pointing out the dangers of that kind of consolidation to the health of FA as whole, especially when none of the EMC parties seemed interested to do anything but continue protecting its upper tier and growing that, with the EMC aura, which leads to further stagnation. 

Yes, exactly, I agree with you completely. It's just, TKRsphere has the upper tier consolidated... and IQ has the middle tier consolidated. And IQ has more players and therefore more potential cities to bring to bear. TKRsphere was vulnerable to this kind of war, but will IQ ever be? It wouldn't be in your interest to allow IQ to be vulnerable, and like I said you can't reasonably be blamed for acting in your own interests nor expected to act against your interests. The issue is, anyone becoming the EMC still causes the same problems for everyone, even if it's you.

34 minutes ago, Flame of the Flawed said:

To be fair, t$ is the alliance that actively worked to break up our own hegemony :P

 

18 minutes ago, Shadowthrone said:

Also BK at one point did? 

Your arguments would be more reassuring if NPO wasn't poised to take the #1 score slot in a second game while de-facto allied to the last hegemons of this game, but fair enough.

Edited by Sir Scarfalot

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42 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

At what point?

When they put me in charge.

 

When they left me in charge.

 

When they put me in charge again.

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1 hour ago, Sir Scarfalot said:

Yes, exactly, I agree with you completely. It's just, TKRsphere has the upper tier consolidated... and IQ has the middle tier consolidated. And IQ has more players and therefore more potential cities to bring to bear. TKRsphere was vulnerable to this kind of war, but will IQ ever be? It wouldn't be in your interest to allow IQ to be vulnerable, and like I said you can't reasonably be blamed for acting in your own interests nor expected to act against your interests. The issue is, anyone becoming the EMC still causes the same problems for everyone, even if it's you.

 

That would be true enough, if the fact was IQ was undefeated, or mid-tier consolidation cannot be competed against. Outside of IQ, the numbers add up for mistier are more or less even and IQ's losses in previous wars and even a stalemate in AC was made up of different groupings and such. To discuss the potential of an IQ hegemony before the previous has been effectively dismantled is more on the extreme side of things. The history of IQ, from ToT/TJest and Ayyslamic Crusade shows how even if we're combined very well, theres enough that can balance us. Where the game always seemed to lie was around the upper tiers and that aura of EMC being the safe bet that really added more to the hegemony than one could to IQ. 

While mid-tier consolidation is not ideal, its hardly as terrible as upper tier consolidation seeing how almost every major alliance in this game have some solid mid tier numbers and have competed vs IQ over and over again and so far as most people like to remind us, always beaten us. I find the premise faulty in and off itself, because everyone has a mid-tier, but a few have an upper tier. 

Quote

Your arguments would be more reassuring if NPO wasn't poised to take the #1 score slot in a second game while de-facto allied to the last hegemons of this game, but fair enough.

Us reaching #1 if it happens will be a temporary blip and not long term. I'm quite certain Pantheon's growth and other alliances with larger nations will easily overtake us ASAP and really should not play into any objective considerations outside of fear mongering imho. Also I like how you bring up "another game" as if that is supposed to matter. 

 

Edited by Shadowthrone

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I can't wait to see how many whales jump ship off of GoB when they start feeling real pain. 

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