Question about IQ alliances

[Dio Brando]

Fair enough.

[Auctor]

To have our enemies fall at our feet, to hear the lamentations of their women, to drive off their cattle and make a desolation the lands they once called empire.

[Queen M II]

50 minutes ago, Justin076 said:

EDIT: To add to the "everyone shitting on them"... IQ has held their position for 10 months now, they've completely flushed their potential power and influence down the toilet. They sitting around doing nothing has helped lead to an almost entire year of stagnation in this game. Many alliances and the member base of this game has overtime developed negative feelings for IQ simply because of their unwillingness to help change the game and for their help in stagnating the game. They brought it on themselves. This war and the hate they're getting was inevitable. 

Justin, I'm not saying IQ hasn't contributed to these issues. I know they have. I, like everyone else, have been critical of the needless consolidation they've done. What I'm saying is that you don't build a new relationship over night after YEARS (don't front and act like CN shit isn't bleeding into PnW) of ragespitting about about one thing or another. Also, considering the backstabbing that goes on, there's no wonder there's no trust to even take a step towards breaking this shit down. Now while I'm not personally privy to TCW trying to talk to IQ (I take it you mean TKR/TCW?), absolutely nothing is going to happen if the players in the game don't have a come to Jesus moment and get real about what's really up. Point being, I get why they may not wanna talk and I get why you want them to break. This game really is about personal relationships. Would I want to ally with someone that has lied to me and stabbed me in the back? Would I want to talk to someone that has called me every name in the book? What's the carrot for them? You have to offer something other than winning (they don't care about that) to get them to do what y'all want.

It comes down to how you talk and communicate with each other. You can't go in to anything saying "You suck. You should break from your bros that also suck. You should think about stepping away from that to see what happens" when all they know is they'll most likely get stomped.

 

 

[Eumirbago]

IQ exists to be the fam's punching bag.

Until @Roquentin get da sauce down, we finna be out here winnin.

Also, sucks to fricking suck @hydraik. We all fam out here on this side AND we steady gettin dem dubs boi. We had a lot of fun clapping cheeks when our enemies had 4-6 more cities than us.

#blessed #undefeated #fambam

Edited March 22, 2018 by Ebeezy

[Settra]

#blessed #undefeated #RealCBs

[Pubstomper]

@hydraik you commented on the top 30-50% of TGH not being reachable. We sold down to hit you guys. Go look at our nations and only a couple didn’t have wars, one of which joined after our blitz had already happened. 

[Roq]

So. All of these posts in alliance affairs are confusing me. Like, which one was the area to praise our hidden god, TKR, and like where do I get the Vodka I was promised. Like, is this the bible meeting for TKR, or is this the "We get Vodka and shit on people" area, or is this the "We get on people who have power they don't deserve area" because, with a topic as vague as "Question about IQ alliances" this could go anywhere. I'm joking, my opinion, as someone who is new to this game, is that Zodiac was cool af, I become friends with one of them, then they bieged the fricking shit out of me. But, regardless of that, Zodiac was cool, but it's gone, so like rip. And like, I've always wanted to see TKR in action so like, with all the wars IQ's already in, TKR should join the party, and show us the power that has made them our god (I'm kind of joking, BK is cool, IQ is kinda cool, but like I have sports and school to do, so I'm too busy to actually know what's going on, but it's still fun to watch ) 

 

Sincerely,

 

Citrustrack

 

Just a quick warnin, I may act accordin, but I'm a demon, nothin will stop the screamin, just when I think I've won, I see the gun, and it's not done. A great vigor, just to pull the trigger, but not yet, I'm still in debt, there's more I can get, but there's more pain, do I have enough to gain, will I ever be sane?

Edited March 22, 2018 by Citrustrack

[Justin076]

1 hour ago, Queen M said:

Justin, I'm not saying IQ hasn't contributed to these issues. I know they have. I, like everyone else, have been critical of the needless consolidation they've done. What I'm saying is that you don't build a new relationship over night after YEARS (don't front and act like CN shit isn't bleeding into PnW) of ragespitting about about one thing or another. Also, considering the backstabbing that goes on, there's no wonder there's no trust to even take a step towards breaking this shit down. Now while I'm not personally privy to TCW trying to talk to IQ (I take it you mean TKR/TCW?), absolutely nothing is going to happen if the players in the game don't have a come to Jesus moment and get real about what's really up. Point being, I get why they may not wanna talk and I get why you want them to break. This game really is about personal relationships. Would I want to ally with someone that has lied to me and stabbed me in the back? Would I want to talk to someone that has called me every name in the book? What's the carrot for them? You have to offer something other than winning (they don't care about that) to get them to do what y'all want.

It comes down to how you talk and communicate with each other. You can't go in to anything saying "You suck. You should break from your bros that also suck. You should think about stepping away from that to see what happens" when all they know is they'll most likely get stomped.

This theory though doesn't line up with history. Take the creation of IQ for example. BK, CS, BoC and Chola forming a bloc with NPO??? Go back to Silent War era BK and see what they had to say about NPO and the people they went on to sign. It didn't stop them months later forming IQ. Rose, Rose allying Mensa HQ? The #frickRose Mensa HQ? If people have trust issues, they are paranoid and should remove themselves from power. Moves in this game happen when people take risks and just go in with a bit of confidence. 

 

In the talks I had with IQ, trust was their biggest thing. Yet every proposal presented to them to try and build trust between us and them was shot down with ridiculous excuses and just proved to me that they weren't in this in good-faith or with the intent of getting anywhere. 

 

EDIT: Hell, you signed Kastor, you even prove my point  

Edited March 22, 2018 by Justin076

[Dio Brando]

I'm waiting for him to see his own mistake. Read your second last sentence about moves and confidence again. Slowly. Look at the previous week. Read the sentence again. There we go.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Dio Brando

[Shadowthrone]

1 hour ago, Queen M said:

You attract more with honey and all that. If you want IQ to split up, they may want to see potential allies that aren't pricks to them 24/7.

Hey thats sound advice! 

Also what do we get from IQ? Drunk discord chats. I'll stick it out for that

Edited March 22, 2018 by Shadowthrone

[Codonian]

2 hours ago, Queen M said:

I get the feeling they'd rather die together in friendship and loyalty, then have a shot at winning with players/alliances that do nothing but talk shit on them. 

You attract more with honey and all that. If you want IQ to split up, they may want to see potential allies that aren't pricks to them 24/7.

How has it taken THIS long for someone to come out with this piece of common sense?!

Edit: Personally, I thought it was also painfully obvious 

Edited March 22, 2018 by Codonian

[Sans]

2 hours ago, Dio Brando said:

You have a status quo where IQ, if it disbands, will be left with parties that have been alienated repeatedly. I'm sure some of the more louder members of your coalition will come up here and talk about how that would not come to pass if IQ did dissolve, that they would be willing to treaty and dance with the parties in IQ. Have you at any given time considered that treaties are a two-way street? I have seen several members (shitposting, as they were) discussing TKR's former FA head opting to pick a direction its membership (TKR's) was not comfortable.

Let it be known that the majority of the criticisms toward's this path was a lack of belief in its ability to be pulled off, not the path itself. And as it so happens, there where no less than two opportunities on the table or some shit to go down if certain members of gov did not sabotage it. 

1 hour ago, Justin076 said:

In the talks I had with IQ, trust was their biggest thing. Yet every proposal presented to them to try and build trust between us and them was shot down with ridiculous excuses and just proved to me that they weren't in this in good-faith or with the intent of getting anywhere. 

Heya Justin, hope you're having fun in TGH. I know how much patience you demonstrated over the course of things from the start of that whole thing to you passing on the torch, but I feel as if some things are being loss with perspective. This isn't a personal objection towards you, just a disagreement on somethings that I want to clarify. 

Not having enough trust is a legitimate concern. And in hindsight, they're honestly right. Being approached by someone you really don't trust and are skeptical to is extremely suspicious. Trying to believe such a person or alliance will take your word at face value right away is a standard no one will adhere to if the shoe was on the other foot. It took time over the course of our discussions to build some level of trust to get to a point where we can talk openly. And lets not say we did not change our demands or pushed what we would be more comfortable doing. That's how negotiations work. We eventually got to a point where we had deals on the table. Those were rejected by our party, that's not on them. Its on us. They didn't call off negotiations....

Edit- Concerning IQ as a whole, I really don't understand what non IQ wants from them. If its to split them up, all it really is going to do is make them dislike non IQ more and want to stick together. What are you trying to do? Beat them down hard enough to demonstrate other options are better? Are treaty cuts part of the terms you want to enforce? Just laying into your favorite punching bag? Do you really have the will to sustain a war that long to meet these goals? And if not, then whats the freaking point. 

If everyone and their mother spits vile and disgust on them, who the frick are they going to ally when they split up? Are they just supposed to be content to be weaker and vulnerable in comparison to every other sphere? Put yourself in their shoes and tell me wtf you're doing in their situation. 

 

 

To those disseminating false information. 

I don't appreciate this rewritten history concerning what was or was not acceptable by "the membership" if you want to challenge my ability to read, I can damn sure prove my literacy for you. 

Edited March 22, 2018 by Hilmes

[Dio Brando]

Just now, Hilmes said:

Let it be known that the majority of the criticisms toward's this path was a lack of belief in its ability to be pulled off, not the path itself. And as it so happens, there where no less than two opportunities on the table or some shit to go down if certain members of gov did not sabotage it. 

Like I said, I don't have complete information over what occurred there. Thank you for clarifying what it was.

[Roq]

3 minutes ago, Shadowthrone said:

Hey thats sound advice! 

Also what do we get from IQ? Drunk discord chats. I'll stick it out for that

Damn, well, is the liquor good though, you don't want to go to a drunk discord chat with the weak shit, but like is it good?

[Shadowthrone]

3 minutes ago, Citrustrack said:

Damn, well, is the liquor good though, you don't want to go to a drunk discord chat with the weak shit, but like is it good?

Nothing but the finest scotch and bourbon! 

[Spaceman Thrax]

22 minutes ago, Queen M said:

Justin, I'm not saying IQ hasn't contributed to these issues. I know they have. I, like everyone else, have been critical of the needless consolidation they've done. What I'm saying is that you don't build a new relationship over night after YEARS (don't front and act like CN shit isn't bleeding into PnW) of ragespitting about about one thing or another. Also, considering the backstabbing that goes on, there's no wonder there's no trust to even take a step towards breaking this shit down. Now while I'm not personally privy to TCW trying to talk to IQ (I take it you mean TKR/TCW?), absolutely nothing is going to happen if the players in the game don't have a come to Jesus moment and get real about what's really up. Point being, I get why they may not wanna talk and I get why you want them to break. This game really is about personal relationships. Would I want to ally with someone that has lied to me and stabbed me in the back? Would I want to talk to someone that has called me every name in the book? What's the carrot for them? You have to offer something other than winning (they don't care about that) to get them to do what y'all want.

It comes down to how you talk and communicate with each other. You can't go in to anything saying "You suck. You should break from your bros that also suck. You should think about stepping away from that to see what happens" when all they know is they'll most likely get stomped.

 

 

I mean I get the point you're trying to make but if you go a bit farther back it basically explains my own problems working with anyone in IQ, and I'd imagine most people share at least some of them.

With their insularity and supremacy clause, I literally know that any deal I make with anyone in IQ is going to be subordinate to 5 other agreements by default. That's a big mountain to scale. I've been screwed over by plenty of people within it, and a lot of my friends have gotten it far worse.

There's people in IQ I enjoy speaking with and I don't have personal issues with any of them (and there are some people in the game I have personal issues with). But there haven't been no carrots, and I don't buy into their victim narrative on these forums. People go too far with their nonsense posts and not everyone actually has a reason behind what they're saying behind just being jerks, but you're making it sound like the onus is entirely outside of IQ, and that's just total nonsense.

In my time in Syndisphere, BK and Mensa were the largest garbage speakers in the game. To see BK now claim to be victims in some kind of unfair coordinated forum attack is, simply, total dogshit. If you're saying people could do more to offer them incentives, sure, but that's literally always true. People could also be doing less. EMC got less incentives to break up, and did it anyway.

My two cents, anyway. I do think there's plenty of people who are also just completely unfair to IQ and are basically bandwagoning. But that doesn't mean there's no legitimate basis for some of the criticisms they are getting.

Dio, I appreciated your post but I think I'd make the same point to you. You need to go back a bit farther for the context that makes some of the things you're presenting less ridiculous.

[Justin076]

1 hour ago, Hilmes said:

Heya Justin, hope you're having fun in TGH. I know how much patience you demonstrated over the course of things from the start of that whole thing to you passing on the torch, but I feel as if some things are being loss with perspective. This isn't a personal objection towards you, just a disagreement on somethings that I want to clarify. 

Not having enough trust is a legitimate concern. And in hindsight, they're honestly right. Being approached by someone you really don't trust and are skeptical to is extremely suspicious. Trying to believe such a person or alliance will take your word at face value right away is a standard no one will adhere to if the shoe was on the other foot. It took time over the course of our discussions to build some level of trust to get to a point where we can talk openly. And lets not say we did not change our demands or pushed what we would be more comfortable doing. That's how negotiations work. We eventually got to a point where we had deals on the table. Those were rejected by our party, that's not on them. Its on us. They didn't call off negotiations....

If you have trust issues, be more willing to build trust. I left mid conversation so I really don't know how the latter went. However while I was there all I interpreted was excuses and an unwillingness to build trust or make change. It was repetitive conversation every single day, why you should trust us, why we can't trust you, what we want to do and what we cannot do. I never once felt that the other party came into the conversation or "negotiations" in good-faith and were doomed from the beginning. If they showed a bit or willingness to nudge or change the status quo, I probably wouldn't have become as much as an anti-IQ voice as I have. 

[Shadowthrone]

5 minutes ago, Justin076 said:

If you have trust issues, be more willing to build trust. I left mid conversation so I really don't know how the latter went. However while I was there all I interpreted was excuses and an unwillingness to build trust or make change. It was repetitive conversation every single day, why you should trust us, why we can't trust you, what we want to do and what we cannot do. I never once felt that the other party came into the conversation or "negotiations" in good-faith and were doomed from the beginning. If they showed a bit or willingness to nudge or change the status quo, I probably wouldn't have become as much as an anti-IQ voice as I have. 

So its easier to lie/misinform the forums than know the complete picture and what happened? Right, got it! Glad to have you agree that you don't know the entire picture though! 

Edited March 22, 2018 by Shadowthrone

[Sans]

54 minutes ago, Justin076 said:

If you have trust issues, be more willing to build trust. I left mid conversation so I really don't know how the latter went. However while I was there all I interpreted was excuses and an unwillingness to build trust or make change. It was repetitive conversation every single day, why you should trust us, why we can't trust you, what we want to do and what we cannot do. I never once felt that the other party came into the conversation or "negotiations" in good-faith and were doomed from the beginning. If they showed a bit or willingness to nudge or change the status quo, I probably wouldn't have become as much as an anti-IQ voice as I have. 

I understand that man, but we were literally the two alliances they considered the highest threat to themselves, having spoken to many other alliances on their side and been rejected. Not to mention the historical rivalry that has existed between our two alliances. That is a lot to get over and it wasn't going to happen overnight. Being in the conversation and spending their time there to even try to get over these reservations was something. It took a bit to deal with the chill in the air, but after a bit there was some good joking around between aa heads that before were bitter rivals. I understand where you are coming from, but I feel some things regarding their willingness to engage honestly are and were overlooked.

[Queen M II]

33 minutes ago, Justin076 said:

 

EDIT: Hell, you signed Kastor, you even prove my point  

Exactly. You think I'm gonna reach out if I'm IQ when you have Kastor as your mascot? frick all that. Again, comes back to personal relationships and building....trust.

But y'all do you. The plebs that are fetuses in the game will commiserate amongst ourselves.

[Justin076]

1 hour ago, Shadowthrone said:

So its easier to lie/misinform the forums than know the complete picture and what happened? Right, got it! Glad to have you agree that you don't know the entire picture though! 

Lie/misinform? I'm basing my opinions and arguments off of my experience? What exact point are you trying to make.

 

Might reply later, going for supper now @Kayser  

 

 

[Queen M II]

1 hour ago, Spaceman Thrax said:

I mean I get the point you're trying to make but if you go a bit farther back it basically explains my own problems working with anyone in IQ, and I'd imagine most people share at least some of them.

With their insularity and supremacy clause, I literally know that any deal I make with anyone in IQ is going to be subordinate to 5 other agreements by default. That's a big mountain to scale. I've been screwed over by plenty of people within it, and a lot of my friends have gotten it far worse.

There's people in IQ I enjoy speaking with and I don't have personal issues with any of them (and there are some people in the game I have personal issues with). But there haven't been no carrots, and I don't buy into their victim narrative on these forums. People go too far with their nonsense posts and not everyone actually has a reason behind what they're saying behind just being jerks, but you're making it sound like the onus is entirely outside of IQ, and that's just total nonsense.

In my time in Syndisphere, BK and Mensa were the largest garbage speakers in the game. To see BK now claim to be victims in some kind of unfair coordinated forum attack is, simply, total dogshit. If you're saying people could do more to offer them incentives, sure, but that's literally always true. People could also be doing less. EMC got less incentives to break up, and did it anyway.

My two cents, anyway. I do think there's plenty of people who are also just completely unfair to IQ and are basically bandwagoning. But that doesn't mean there's no legitimate basis for some of the criticisms they are getting.

Dio, I appreciated your post but I think I'd make the same point to you. You need to go back a bit farther for the context that makes some of the things you're presenting less ridiculous.

I'm not saying anything other than there's nothing to entice IQ to break when looking at their alternatives. I know IQ's issues, I know Syndi/EMC's issues, I know paperless issues. I also know that a large portion of this game doesn't care about anything that happened before they got here and yet the minority is the loudest and carrying on grudges from PnW Beta and before.

I don't have a dog in the fight, guys. Have at ramming your heads against the wall.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Queen M

[Shadowthrone]

11 minutes ago, Justin076 said:

Lie/misinform? I'm basing my opinions and arguments off of my experience? What exact point are you trying to make.

 

You were not there for the complete set of talks or where it went or how it ended as you and @Hilmes pointed out. You then go about arguing about how the talks allegedly went, regardless of your complete participation in the same. You can't hide under its my opinion or this is how I saw it, when what you saw was not the complete set of talks of such. So yes, you're misinforming folks based on an incomplete knowledge of the talks, which is unfair, and further divides, reinforces any and all reasons to mistrust the folks who entered those talks, if their sole goal is to use it as a PR card, rather than enter it in good faith. 

 

 

Edited March 22, 2018 by Shadowthrone

[Sans]

56 minutes ago, Queen M said:

I'm not saying anything other than there's nothing to entice IQ to break when looking at their alternatives. I know IQ's issues, I know Syndi/EMC's issues, I know paperless issues. I also know that a large portion of this game doesn't care about anything that happened before they got here and yet the minority is the loudest and carrying on grudges for PnW Beta and before.

I don't have a dog in the fight, guys. Have at ramming your heads against the wall.

Worse yet, any poor fool who tries will get shit on by folks who with the same breath will crucify IQ for not breaking up. Its unbelievable if you think about it, this level of cognitive dissonance. 

Edited March 22, 2018 by Hilmes

[Shadowthrone]

1 minute ago, Hilmes said:

Worse yet, any poor fool who tries will get shit on by folks who with the same breath will crucify IQ for not breaking up. Its unbelievable if you think about it, this level of cognitive dissonance. 

It seems we can't do anything right mate. If we exist, we're evil. If any alliances enters talks with us, they get shat on and nothing works out. Ah well, they can enjoy their echo chambers, while we continue doing what we can .