12/24/2016 - Uncounterable Espionage

[emperorpenguin]

I feel as though a spy blitz has the same effect as a regular blitz. As in, a blitz (if executed correctly) can cause massive damage to the side being blitzed, putting them at a severe disadvantage in war (again, this is assuming the blitz was executed well). A Blitz could leave the opposing side in no position to counter, as they have limited military. Like Curu said, if they can't hit their enemy back themselves, then they should rally their friends to go after them, just like what would happen in any ordinary blitz. I'll respect any decisions made, but the common consensus on this thread seems to be against any action

 

Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, etc etc.

[Bezzers]

I think the problem here is not that everybody thinks they are right, but is in fact that nobody can accept that other people might be right too. A debate where everyone listened and compromised would settle this issue faster than one side forcing the others to listen, and would make everyone a lot happier too. I'm siding with TKR on the matter of this, not because they are my friends, but because I think that you cannot punish them for a perfectly legal maneuver under game rules. I admit it was sleazy, but they also paid the price for that. Alex, while I understand you are doing your best to try and keep the game balanced and interesting, some would call taking action admin abuse but I get that you probably don't see it that way. My advice to you is try to find the helpers giving advice and solutions amidst those moaning, and that goes in respect for both sides. However at the end of the day, the game is yours and if you choose not to listen, that is your decision.

 

EDIT: grammar.

Edited December 25, 2016 by Bezzers

[Phiney]

I think the solution of removing the spy buying cap for the forced beige time would be a good solution to be fair. Still costs those spied. I also think if I was on the other side I'd be complaining about my tactics being shat on by Sheepy, and if those spying were on the other side they'd be complaining about them not being able to use the intended way of retaliating to spy attacks to do so. Everyone likes to complain.

[Ayayay]

So are we all going to gloss over the fact that Sheepy said he was in BK for several months? Clearly he abused his admin powers since BK is strong and, as the shitposters in this thread say, the strongest alliances are whatever Sheepy likes.

[Arkiri Arch]

Alex is a savage and I am thankful he is our creator.

[Sans]

There are folks who made plans based off your word about leaving spies unfrozen. Plans that have since been exexuted. If your goal for this game is to incentivize politics and war punishing a group of people for making political plans based around the mechanics of the game you established would be a poor way of doing it.

 

Alex, please do not cave to the pressure of the loudest mouth. If this topic is to get arguments from both sides, I would suggest you lean more towards a non interventionist hand. The game you have created is put into motion is moving toward a logical end.

 

Let it play out.

[PigInZen]

I'm sorry I'm not as perfect as you 

 

You know, we're not asking for perfection but when people spend money on a game they do expect the administration of said game to be cautious and not be reactionary.  Fair warning, taking action like this is only going to alienate some of your most active players.

[Tywin Lannister]

You made a mistake, it's human to do so, people exploited that loop-hole well, and it is what it is, your mistake made some suffer and some very happy. I really haven't complained about that to anyone nor do I plan on. 

 

If you're looking for a solution though for a bit, perhaps delay the spy changes part so they don't come for a bit. Bring in all the other resistance, etc etc related changes but sit on the spy casualties being higher one for a bit. This way the same old spy system prevails where spies were taken out, no one loses their money either as spies were lost in that very system, and the interference is little to none.

 

I would also like to point out that many players were not even opening P&W since the war system was disabled and weren't around. Kudos to whoever used the situation effectively for them, it's impressive.  

 

Do not do a rollback though!

[ArcKnox]

So when we overcome yet more admin intervention we'll finally have accomplished all our goals and can leave this shitty game and never come back.

[vonnorman]

All that truley matters here is that no actions go unpunished. I trust Alex to make the proper decision whether its uncapping spy purchases so i can rebuild or leaving it alone. No matter what happens i will retaliate, !@#$ if my alliance is scared. Ill leave and go rogue if thats what it takes. This is the best christmas present i couldve asked for. Unlimited targets.

Edited December 25, 2016 by vonnorman

[Ayayay]

 

I know that feel bro 

 

 

Edited December 25, 2016 by Malal

[DragonK]

As Woot and others have said, people who were spied have the exactly same options as those who have spied on them in the first place - they can spy back or, failing that, rally their friends to do so on their behalf. Mass spying is a legitimate tactic that is open to any properly organized alliance, regardless of whether a moratorium is imposed on new wars or not. Penalizing a more organized alliance for making use of a mechanic that is effectively open to everyone (which is what these unspecified remedial measures would do) during this period imposes an unfair disadvantage on those that were acting within the rules of the game when the war ban was in effect. I'd ask that you refrain from moving the goalposts on spying without considering the effect this would have on those that expended time, effort and money on making use of a mechanic that was not supposed to be impacted by the war update.

 

 

Exploit because they can't go to war? There is a defense against spying, the person who gets spied can spy back. War does absolutely nothing against spies, it's only only a political deterrent. 

 

If you didn't intend anybody to spy during this, you could have disabled espionage along with new wars, but you left it completely open.

 

People who were being fought when the war freeze began, like Alpha or Valyria or OOS, kept getting spied for days with nobody whatsoever suggesting that this was an 'exploit'.

 

And people used that spy window against other alliances, and none of them thought for a second that it was an 'exploit' or that their efforts would be punished.

 

By doing espionage they exposed hostility to the people they spied, which is going to have a major, major effect on some of the biggest alliances.

 

And now suddenly, completely out of the blue, the whole spy effort is getting...undone, somehow? Can you give us any details on how we're about to get screwed?

 

Horseshit. It's oneway alley and you know it, whoever starts spy opsing frist, wins, becasue by the time you find out who's doing the spy ops, a good portion of spys are gone, especially if the opponent outnumbers you by emmber count since you can only do 2 spy ops (if you have IA) and can suffer 3 spy ops yourslef. The proper way to respond to spy opping is to decalre war  on the alliance as soon as you find out who's doing it. But we can't do that since wars are frozen, not to mention yo ucowards only started this since you knew that we can't hit you back and since we just recently existed wars. Fair thing would be to disable spy ops and etend the nonconflict period a bit.

[Phiney]

You made a mistake, it's human to do so, people exploited that loop-hole well, and it is what it is, your mistake made some suffer and some very happy. I really haven't complained about that to anyone nor do I plan on.

 

If you're looking for a solution though for a bit, perhaps delay the spy changes part so they don't come for a bit. Bring in all the other resistance, etc etc related changes but sit on the spy casualties being higher one for a bit. This way the same old spy system prevails where spies were taken out, no one loses their money either as spies were lost in that very system, and the interference is little to none.

 

I would also like to point out that many players were not even opening P&W since the war system was disabled and weren't around. Kudos to whoever used the situation effectively for them, it's impressive.

 

Do not do a rollback though!

This makes even more sense and is a solid gold response. Just quoting for visibility really.

[Karrde]

This makes even more sense and is a solid gold response. Just quoting for visibility really.

I agree with this too, seems to be a reasonable compromise coming into the new war system.

[Lordship]

Uncapping spy purchases totally kills the entire operation, especially when said alliances have plenty of cash to spend on rebuying them. The only reason killing spies is a viable strategy is because you can't rebuy them all back instantly, same as every other unit in the game.

Edited December 25, 2016 by Lordship

[Floating Hippo]

Both sides have equal opportunity to spy. Completely fair when everyone has all the same options available from the start.

 

If you didn't take the actions that were available to all, sorry, but sucks to suck.

 

Quit !@#$ing and complaining.  

[Apeman]

Test used the game mechanics at a certain point to wipe out all my military within a few turns. Can I also get the chance to build them all at once pretty please?

 

Still love the game sheepy.

[DragonK]

Both sides have equal opportunity to spy. Completely fair when everyone has all the same options available from the start.

 

If you didn't take the actions that were available to all, sorry, but sucks to suck.

 

Quit !@#$ and complaining.  

Not really whoever decides first has the better advantage. I guess it's our fault for not thinking game mehanic changes are valid CB to attack you guys first

[ArcKnox]

I thought we established by now that we don't give a !@#$ about CBs

[Guest Curufinwe]

Not really whoever decides first has the better advantage. I guess it's our fault for not thinking game mehanic changes are valid CB to attack you guys first

You could equally say the same about a surprise blitz on an unsuspecting opponent - the mechanic is open to everyone, just because one side chose not to use it doesn't mean the other should be penalized.

 

As to the solutions being suggested, Lordship has a point - given the city count and infra bloat of the average TEst nation, 15 million (which is the very top of Pre's recommended scale) to replace all their spies in one shot isn't exactly a weighty sum and disproportionately advantages them over the less city and infra fat players that carried out the spy attacks in the first place, since they used proportionately more of their income carrying out the attacks (and replacing any losses) than the whales in TEst would spend in offsetting it.

Edited December 25, 2016 by Curufinwe

[Donald Trump]

If Sheepy wasn't corrupt, he'd wait until the war is done before pulling this. Not doing it in the middle. 

[Angevin]

I take it my protest will fall on deaf ears so what's the point.

[Schirminator]

Considering not all TEst nations had max spies before the spy ops began, it would give a serious advantage to them if they were allowed to buy an uncapped amount of spies. It would allow TEst nations with let's say 20 spies before the war freeze to circumvent the 2 spy per day rebuy cap (3 with IA). Not only would this boost all TEst nations to max spies but this would also hurt all the alliances that were doing spy ops during this timeperiod because now they've totally lost the element of surprise and each nation has wasted millions on spy ops with nothing to show for it. The extreme that Pre is talking about places TEst in a far greater standing than they had before the war freeze.

[LordRahl2]

Really this in an endemic problem for inexperienced admin and a deep flaw in the decision system sheepy has run since the start of the game. As a good friend of mine said "His excuse is that he's not a professional dev and obviously hasn't had access to UX professionals, game designers, methodologies of change, etc. The sad part is that this is all available if he were to seek it out. He was a kid who had an idea and knew how to code. Then he started taking people's money..."

 

Hence, the game is now sputtering on life support. Sheepy continues to double down on his basic mistake which is listening to every complaint and trying to tinker with the game to make it "fair". The law of unintended consequences kicks in and we arrive at the predictable situation where sheepy is required to arbitrarily pick winners and losers. Thats cool, I am planning on moving on soon. I hope real life sheepy learns from his mistakes if he tries something similar in the future.

[Dr Rush]

So alex, lets simplify this choice for you a bit.

 

Option one: You allow Test & co to regain spies beyond the normal limit, method is irrelevant./Lessen the effects of missing spies.

Option two: You leave things as they are.

 

Under option one, you are effectively screwing SyndiHQ. Which has as a group spent both money & time to obtain a tactical advantage for a war. We have also revealed our intentions to start a war, actually it would be fair to say that the war has started. You can likely assume that both sides will attempt to attack as soon as the beige timer ends. Messing with spies at this point would the equivalent of resetting a blitz. Or completely delete the effects of TI, something that allowed our sphere to grow to a point where a war with test is practical. Regardless of how you do it you are deliberately using your admin powers to shift advantages around & away from people who earned them using your mechanics. 

 

For option two, yeah it sucks to be test, however they still possess a massive city advantage, which is still an overriding factor in war. All the spy ops allow us to do is drag them down into our range for an actual war. Additionally, while the response to being massed spied is war, it would still take a couple days or so to build up & organize a blitz.