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Spy rebuild, function, and Satellite project changes.


Prefontaine
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4 minutes ago, Prefontaine said:

Yes, this is the reason for the beige changes. One of the biggest let downs when you're winning a war is when the enemy sells off everything and your left there punching a dead bag. You should want enemies to rebuild so you can keep fighting, it's more fun to fight someone who can fight back. This way a war, and a spy war, isn't over and done in the opening moments. Something that can go on for weeks and months isn't done in the moment. Will the other side rebuild? Not necessarily. Can they with these changes? Yes. That being the important thing.   

So yes, these are good things. Thanks for highlighting them.

With spy sat you can kill off more than enough spies in the opening day to spend the next day change on units if need be. 

In a 1v1 sure, in a global that's not plausible, you have like 1000 members that need to be wiped before you can think of swapping to military kills. 3x'n buy rates and nearing spy sat makes it near impossible to effectively spy military in a global.

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Looking at all these “re-works” on different topics while feeling like the game is somewhat stalled; makes me wonder whether the community is more interested in “re-works” vs. “net-new” additions to the game. 
 

I personally think “re-works” don’t add much to the game, don’t attract new players,  while they occupy your time.

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33 minutes ago, Prefontaine said:

Insisting? Are you getting logs of the design channel? Regardless that's a bold, and incorrect claim. I posted the idea of removing it, someone suggested removing it and adding the op. We then went on a long talk about other areas of the change and then I said this:

Prefontaine — 07/20/2022
One last thing before I go.
Changing the 1.5x spy rate for spy sat to 1 additional op is something liked, yes?

Someone confirmed and then I said.

Prefontaine — 07/20/2022
That got lost in the shuffle but I didn't want to omit it.
Works for me.

And it would be interesting to see who is actually in your design team, would you mind listing the names?

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3 minutes ago, dtc justice said:

And it would be interesting to see who is actually in your design team, would you mind listing the names?

I update the roster when changes happen, it's not hidden. 

4 minutes ago, Ketya said:

Looking at all these “re-works” on different topics while feeling like the game is somewhat stalled; makes me wonder whether the community is more interested in “re-works” vs. “net-new” additions to the game. 
 

I personally think “re-works” don’t add much to the game, don’t attract new players,  while they occupy your time.

There are a few reworks on the agenda. The next update will be focusing on new content. 

Edited by Prefontaine

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I will again mention, your changes are meant to make it easier for a spy comeback, and to level the playing field correctly?

Your changes make it so rose will never lose another spy war, if these changes were live for this war HW would be wiped after we all rebuilt in the reserve.

You're trying to make it more even but in fact you're making it much more of a rose spy game. I'm against the changes even though they benefit rose

 

Edit:

I'll also mention, rose spy team is putting out probably 100 hours per day combined of labour involved with spying, you can't say it's an unfair mechanic when almost every other alliances uses a very bad bot system to do ops. It's not the mechanics that are broken, it's the laziness of other alliances that make it appear broken

Edited by dtc justice
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1 minute ago, Maks Maximmillian said:

Surprise surprise celestial gets rolled for a while and the whole war system suddenly gets a change proposed. 

Cute, but all the people in here opposing it are from Celestial. Try again.

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2 minutes ago, Maks Maximmillian said:

Surprise surprise celestial gets rolled for a while and the whole war system suddenly gets a change proposed. 

Half of the design team is Hollywood (3/6, with 2/6 from Celestial and 1 from Clock), Pre himself has closer ties to Hollywood alliances than Celestial alliances, and the people in here opposing it are from Celestial despite pointing out that it would help their alliance. These kinds of changes are just things that Pre and the design team have really wanted to implement for *years* and they are fairly similar to other proposals that have been floated over the years.

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15 minutes ago, Maks Maximmillian said:

Surprise surprise celestial gets rolled for a while and the whole war system suddenly gets a change proposed. 

Ironic coming from the guy in the alliance who's leader wanted "loser weapons" nerfed for the longest time

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1 hour ago, dtc justice said:

I will again mention, your changes are meant to make it easier for a spy comeback, and to level the playing field correctly?

Your changes make it so rose will never lose another spy war, if these changes were live for this war HW would be wiped after we all rebuilt in the reserve.

You're trying to make it more even but in fact you're making it much more of a rose spy game. I'm against the changes even though they benefit rose

 

Edit:

I'll also mention, rose spy team is putting out probably 100 hours per day combined of labour involved with spying, you can't say it's an unfair mechanic when almost every other alliances uses a very bad bot system to do ops. It's not the mechanics that are broken, it's the laziness of other alliances that make it appear broken

am i missing something? yes you could rebuild all your spies and wipe the other side after they had 10 days of unopposed spy ops against you but then they could do the same to you? also with the current scripts we may as well make spy counts public to save the major server load those scripts take. personally i dont think they should be legal at all but im very anti automation. i also dont think that there should be such a significant advantage based on the coding ability of individuals and alliances but that is not a fight im willing to take since i have no chance to winning.

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5 hours ago, Prefontaine said:

SPY TRAINING CHANGES
-Spies are either in Active Duty or Reserve status.
-Freshly trained spies are in Reserve Status by default but you can train up to 4 into active if you choose
-Reserve spies cannot be used for defense or offensive and cost 1/4 of the upkeep
-Spies in reserve cannot be killed.
-Spies cannot move from Active to Reserve, but only Reserve to Active.
-Spy training rates are tripled. (8 can go into reserve and 4 into active or 12 can go into reserve with all spy projects. 6 can be made per day with no spy projects and you can have up to 4 of them be active duty)
-Spies take 5 days (60 turns) to move from reserve to active.
-Total spy count (active + reserve) cannot exceed the maximum number of spies a player can have. 

SPY FUNCTION CHANGES
-Scaling kills for based on number of spies used ( % kills = -2200/(spies+23)+126 )

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If you look at the blue line, those are the kill rates. 20 spies deployed is about 75% of the normal kill rate. 6 spies is about 50% the normal kill rate.

SPY SAT CHANGES
-No longer provides a 50% bonus to kills
-Provides an additional spy operation per day
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Similar to beige, it's up to the attacker to give you a reprieve. While being beige cycled you cannot fully rebuild unless your attacker lets you. With spies you cannot rebuild your spies unless your attackers stop killing your spies. This way now provides a way to rebuild your spies in a manner which they cannot be killed while still utilizing some of them for guerilla tactic ops. The damage on those ops have been reduced some, but with a double buy all players can still see above 50% damage with a double buy.

The reason for the delay in moving from reserve status to active is to lengthen the window of easy spy ops for the attacker. If a player with all projects wants to get back to max spies with 12 a day into reserve, that's 5 days, with an additional 5 days that provides attackers with a 10 day window to take advantage of their spy blitz. It also stops alliances from keeping all of their spies in reserve to suddenly move out when an alliance war starts as they entire length of the first round with leave them without any spies. 

This seems really interesting and I'm excited to see the upcoming updates to the game! :)

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1 hour ago, Maks Maximmillian said:

Surprise surprise celestial gets rolled for a while and the whole war system suddenly gets a change proposed. 

Yikes. Like Exalts said earlier, the arguments here against these changes are actually arguing against "our interests." In practice, this will not be leveling the playing field for you, this will be skewing it in the favour of the few with the framework to take full advantage of it, including myself. I'm saying this from experience of having worked with dozens of alliances over the past years on spy ops, and coordinated spy ops against even more. 

If I were looking at things with consideration of our interests, it'd be more along the lines of:

bill-hader-sign-me-up.gif

Hell yeah, let's rock and roll. I don't think these changes should be implemented (especially not all at once - i.e. the spy sat change alongside the reserve system introduction), but I high-key cannot wait to "exploit" these new mechanics and cause a whole new tide of threads over broken spy mechanics thread. Lord have mercy on everyone but like two or three alliances (and on those alliances, as well, when they have to face each other and never get to spy anything but spies in a long, bitter, and miserable back-and-forth). I'll start cooking up the "I told you so" now, so it's nice and ready. :v 

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I think with beige there's still room for the attacking/winning side to make a counter-blitz harder for the enemy. For example, an idea that came up pretty quickly was staggering beige times so that the enemy has to either come out in theoretically more manageable waves or decide to do a larger counter-blitz with incomplete military. With the spy changes, there's no way for the side winning the spy war to mitigate the counter-attack - it is basically just a full reset of the spy war about every week, with timing entirely determined by the losing side.

Also, I think you overestimate how quickly spies get wiped across a coalition. It isn't like a day or two into the war, everyone's zeroed and you can target their military. So you're still wiping spies while they're recruiting reserves that they can bring back into play once they're wiped. I'd say the "10 days minimum" window would actually be 10 day maximum of taking advantage of the "spy blitz", since they'd likely already have a few days of reserves built up from battling it out at the beginning of that round of the spy war.

Edited by Alcyr
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4 hours ago, Prefontaine said:

I can assure you the changes rolling around for a long time.

 It's not politically motivated. 

You only started complaining about it again since [redacted] has been killing your tanks every day and then you ran to vm immediately after I killed your spies for the lols.

The issue is that the spy system works very well when you are in an actual alliance, it's no one else's fault but your own that you went to the admin alliance and can't stop people from spying you through threats of war.

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Orbis Wars   |   CSI: UPN   |   B I G O O F   |   PW Expert Has Nerve To Tell You How To Run Your Own Goddamn Alliance | Occupy Wall Street | Sheepy Sings

TheNG - My favorite part is when Steve suggests DEIC might have done something remotely successful, then gets massively shit on for proposing such a stupid idea.

On 1/4/2016 at 6:37 PM, Sheepy said:
Sheepy said:

I'm retarded, you win

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3 hours ago, Malal said:

You only started complaining about it again since [redacted] has been killing your tanks every day and then you ran to vm immediately after I killed your spies for the lols.

The issue is that the spy system works very well when you are in an actual alliance, it's no one else's fault but your own that you went to the admin alliance and can't stop people from spying you through threats of war.

Would you like me to find the several threads regarding these changes I've made over the years? As I've said in the design channel the shift from your attacker letting you build versus the game giving you a window to build is the theme of these shifts. 

2 hours ago, dtc justice said:

Also @Prefontaineif you notice, your original post has 25 down votes and my long response has 18 up votes, and if you look closer at the names there's many reputable people on those votes

Stop pushing your own agenda and have an actual spy dev team 😇

I've also seen the messages directing people to go downvote and upvote the thread. Nice try though.

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Can we please just have development time focused on fixing the game for now and not changing the spy system? Right now we have the game getting closer and closer to being put on life support. Last thing anyone cares about are spy changes when they are having near heart attacks waking up to 20+ notifications. I get your job is to bring in new features and make changes to the game, but right now the change needed the most is fixing the game.

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42 minutes ago, Prefontaine said:

Would you like me to find the several threads regarding these changes I've made over the years? As I've said in the design channel the shift from your attacker letting you build versus the game giving you a window to build is the theme of these shifts. 

I've also seen the messages directing people to go downvote and upvote the thread. Nice try though.

Feel free to share ss's of those messages because to my knowledge that's false

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5 hours ago, darkblade said:

Can we please just have development time focused on fixing the game for now and not changing the spy system? Right now we have the game getting closer and closer to being put on life support. Last thing anyone cares about are spy changes when they are having near heart attacks waking up to 20+ notifications. I get your job is to bring in new features and make changes to the game, but right now the change needed the most is fixing the game.

You can do both. Especially as the Dev team does not fix bugs. It takes a long time for any of this to be implemented, stopping discussions about balancing the game because there is a current bug is just sorta ludicrous. Getting to making a thread on this takes ages and the gap between this thread and a final decision may be months. Not to then mention the coding, test server etc.

We're realistically going to only see some of these changes next year.

[11:52 PM] Prefontaine: But Keegoz is actually bad. [11:52 PM] Prefontaine: He's my favorite bad leader though.

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6 hours ago, dtc justice said:

Feel free to share ss's of those messages because to my knowledge that's false

Even if it's true, must every vote or post be verified? By nature of them posting or voting, that's their community voice.

Either you should accept community feedback or don't. But stay consistent. That's my frustration. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

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12 hours ago, darkblade said:

Can we please just have development time focused on fixing the game for now and not changing the spy system? Right now we have the game getting closer and closer to being put on life support. Last thing anyone cares about are spy changes when they are having near heart attacks waking up to 20+ notifications. I get your job is to bring in new features and make changes to the game, but right now the change needed the most is fixing the game.

I'd say they're both pretty important, I'm excited to see new changes to the game but I do understand that there are definitely some bugs that need to be fixed. While I do think that there are some parts of the spy system that need fixing (as in how an assassinate spies operation has killed about 50% of my spies, which took me ages to build up to), the notification problem does need fixing.

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