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Tiberius

Trade Bots

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16 hours ago, Tiberius said:

it doesnt specifically cover semi-automated and lower.  

What about full semi-auto trade bots? Think of the monetary value, you monster!

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29 minutes ago, Vladamir Putin said:

A simple solution that I'd implement is to put a "safe trade" option in the account settings. 

When it's on, making a trade offer that's buys an offer for more than 200% of the average market of the value will result in a box popping up asking ”ARE YOU SURE DUDE????"

Same with selling something, except if it's 50% or less of the average price.

This way, those who keep making trading mistakes have the option of giving themselves a safety net, those who pay attention can spend 5 seconds turning it off like it's confetti, and most trade mistakes should be prevented.

 

Edit: You could also make the ranges at which the safe trade is set at adjustable for the user

If you’re a new nation, something like this is automatically in effect. (Or it just won’t let you post offers to far off from the market value)

Letting older nations who need it choose to activate or reactivate that setting makes sense.

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Could always just embargo the alliances you don't like. Embargo me also

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On 1/12/2019 at 10:21 AM, Tiberius said:

Historically TKR members have refused to repay them back from my personal experience and I know I am not the only one to have experienced that. I would appreciate it if you could do that, thank you.

Historically, TKR members have a generally bad opinion of IQ. Our rule for them is to return trades at their own discretion. Put those 2 together and you'll quickly get to a conclusion. I hope you do not take our policy personally. I am sure if you message them and politely ask, they'll return your mistrade 9 out of 10 times (Unless it's Blackie, in that case god help you).

Good luck on all future trading, make that $$$ ❤️ 

Edited by Radoje
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We've talked about this already. PnW administration is refusing to enforce rules on trading errors.

 

In this regard, you have two options.

 

-1. Run your own trade bot. Given the Roqbot propaganda, I'm sure NPO would be more efficient than TKR in abusing trading errors.

-2. Beat the shit out of TKR until they stop using the Kosonome script.

 

It seems as though you've decided to resort to option 2. You're dealing between 250-500mn to the enemy coalition per day, when the opfor has an estimated warchest of at least 60 bn. You can wait another 30-240 days until the opfor warchest is depleted beyond tolerance and they're relying entirely on the Kosonome script to fund their war efforts.

 

===

 

From a military perspective, I'd actually be surprised if NPO doesn't have a tradebot in reserve by now. You definitely have the coding chops needed to set one up; and considering that Kosonome scripting is one of the reasons the peace talks have jammed up, being able to make option 1 a threat to enforce a ban on trading bots is not a bad idea.

 

===


The third option is to create a fully-automated trading bot that's technically against the rules, but is set up to "jam" Kosonome scripting by beating it to the punch, then returning resources to its sender. While technically against the rules, this is in good faith (i.e, it prevents behavior you personally find offensive), and if you ask the administration for permission to operate it, it might be granted. Hell, you could even get it to mirror HFT by setting up "Kosojammer" in the same datacenter where PnW is hosted and running it from there.

Edited by Inst

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People really shouldn't make suggestions based on stopping something that's just happened to them that they don't like.  They are nearly always bad.  Suggestions should be offered impartially and apolitically for the good of the game.

Edited by Azaghul
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53 minutes ago, Azaghul said:

People really shouldn't make suggestions based on stopping something that's just happened to them that they don't like.  They are nearly always bad.  Suggestions should be offered impartially and apolitically for the good of the game.

How much are you guys really making from tradebots? I can't believe how irrational you guys get off it.

 

The logic is clear, everyone makes trading mistakes once in a while. This happens proportionately more often with newer players and newer alliances, so this is a penalty imposed on newbies. I've been told IQ can whip a faster tradebot up in less than a week, so their abstaining from tradebotting is voluntary.

Edited by Inst

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3 hours ago, Inst said:

How much are you guys really making from tradebots? I can't believe how irrational you guys get off it.

 

The logic is clear, everyone makes trading mistakes once in a while. This happens proportionately more often with newer players and newer alliances, so this is a penalty imposed on newbies. I've been told IQ can whip a faster tradebot up in less than a week, so their abstaining from tradebotting is voluntary.

I haven't paid any attention to it in ages so I really don't know.  In any case a mistrade could also be caught by someone just looking at the market normally, and it would have the same result as if someone caught it because of a bot.  Does IQ abstain from that as well and enforce that abstinence on their membership?

 

It's really no different than many of the bots people, including IQ, are using for wars.  The difference is we don't whine about it.

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The real question is: if you ban the bot how do you know if no one is using it? Because it's very likely that the mistrade can be catched without using a bot

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20 minutes ago, Micchan said:

The real question is: if you ban the bot how do you know if no one is using it? Because it's very likely that the mistrade can be catched without using a bot

According to Scarf's experiment, less likely than you think.

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Probably in the minority here but ehhhh. Like I understand how frustrating it can be to make mistakes like this but like I can't help but come to the conclusion of "its sucks to suck". If you make this mistake and Im sure it was a mistake then oh well. If some others are dedicated to picking up on others frick-ups then so be it. Bots that alert of mis-trades to me are fair game, ones that auto-accept aren't. Like I mean life is full of frick-ups but there's usually no redo button and its human nature for others to take advantage of another persons mistake. Like the only solution is to second check your trades before submitting them, if you don't and this happens then sucks to suck. I've had this done many times and I just accepted the fact that maybe I deserved it for doing an oppsie, sure I'd love to have a redo but life is not like that... 

 

 

Edited by Justin076
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23 hours ago, Inst said:

the opfor has an estimated warchest of at least 60 bn.

Jesus. I remember back when Bloc Party had an estimated warchest of 6 mil and we thought it was a ton. That was back before alliance banks were a thing, so coordinating it was a hassle (especially due to Bloc players being Bloc heads).

23 hours ago, Inst said:

-a long post-

My thoughts:

Is the bot really making enough for it to be a major issue, or is it outrage from a very small amount of people who get pissed off at a loss of resources? If it's the latter, why wouldn't TKR come out and announce they get a very small amount per week from it as damage control? If it's the former, why wouldn't NPO or any of TKR's opponents either run a script to at least compete with them in the resource market, hoping it makes a dent in their WC or use it as a bargaining chip in negotiations (assuming they aren't already)?

From TKR's perspective: How will TKR respond to this, if the issue isn't forgotten in a few weeks? More particularly, how does TKR prevent a trade-bot war? If TKR can't prevent a trade-bot war, how do they "win" it? If they can't win it, how do they ensure their trade advantage survive? If their trade advantage doesn't survive, what other advantage do they aim for?

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20 hours ago, Micchan said:

The real question is: if you ban the bot how do you know if no one is using it? Because it's very likely that the mistrade can be catched without using a bot

You can do it without having a bot by simply having API analytics pick up on tradebot operation by detecting fast scalping. This isn't the same as operating a bot, of course, because it's not doing the same thing your Kosonome script is doing.

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On 1/15/2019 at 12:12 AM, The Mad Titan said:

It sucks but won’t be a problem for much longer @Tiberius

But if the bot is gone, who will IQ blame when they screw their trades up?

Cause we both know its never IQ's fault when something bad happens to one of them.

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On 1/16/2019 at 11:48 AM, Sphinx said:

But if the bot is gone, who will IQ blame when they screw their trades up?

Cause we both know its never IQ's fault when something bad happens to one of them.

and here it is, no suggestion can be made without it being made political. 

Personal skill and dedication in-game should trump a bot. If @Alex has no desire to ban Trade Bots, I would at least like to hear his thoughts on one of the proposals posted in here, being that when you submit an offer you get a confirmation box appear stating the type of resource, the amount of that resource and the total amount it will cost you, with some kind of message stating "Are you sure you want to continue?". 

Trading mistakes happen across the political divide, and there has been a number of mistakes recently from the spheres most against this. 

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The problem shouldn't be seen as IQ's. If it's IQ's, what's stopping you from handling it yourself? Install a script that automatically calls and issues a confirmation screen when you attempt to do trades or bank transfers.

 

The way I understood it, and the way it was publicly described, was that IQ wanted the trade bots fixed for the benefit of new players. If it were merely an IQ problem, it could have been easily handled by IQ with browser extensions and so on.

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On 1/12/2019 at 1:40 AM, Sir Scarfalot said:

We might make it so that trade data doesn't show up on the API for a few seconds. 

This is already the case.

On 1/12/2019 at 5:18 AM, Nobody Expects said:

Add a 5 minute delay to the API, it would allow people a chance to fix mistakes, but still allow a bot to pick up stuff people genuinely want to off sell cheap.

A 5 minute delay is pretty extreme - people would just stop using the API and scrape in-game pages directly, which is hard on server performance and would negatively impact everyone's gameplay, without changing anything.

20 hours ago, Tiberius said:

and here it is, no suggestion can be made without it being made political. 

Personal skill and dedication in-game should trump a bot. If @Alex has no desire to ban Trade Bots, I would at least like to hear his thoughts on one of the proposals posted in here, being that when you submit an offer you get a confirmation box appear stating the type of resource, the amount of that resource and the total amount it will cost you, with some kind of message stating "Are you sure you want to continue?". 

Trading mistakes happen across the political divide, and there has been a number of mistakes recently from the spheres most against this. 

These "trade bots" are just notification bots. There is already a delay on how fast the information shows up in the API, and ultimately there's just no way to prevent people from doing this. I could delete the API page and people would simply scrape the web pages, which I addressed above as a non-solution that negatively affects everyone's experience. I could just ban every nation that accepts a trade too fast, but that's hardly fair and will just result in be banning people who haven't done anything wrong and people quitting the game because of ridiculous moderation practices.

The only real way to prevent people from using notification bots effectively is to put captchas on every page, but I don't think you (or anyone else) wants that. As a result, a compromise has to be made, and I don't see any suggestions that are better than the balance reached in the status quo.

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6 minutes ago, Alex said:

This is already the case.

I'm well aware of that; I was responding sarcastically :P

7 minutes ago, Alex said:

The only real way to prevent people from using notification bots effectively is to put captchas on every page, but I don't think you (or anyone else) wants that. As a result, a compromise has to be made, and I don't see any suggestions that are better than the balance reached in the status quo.

Well, there is the idea of putting in a warning for any global trade offers that are way below or above the next best deal, that would at least eliminate the mistakes right?

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IMO, there's already too many limitations on what people can do. If IQ wants to make forcing TKR to join its ban on trade bots part of its peace terms, that's within IQ's power. If IQ wants to code into its game extensions a protection against trading errors, IQ can do so as well. Alex should not be expected to step in for every little incongruity; part of the fun of the game is "legal" exploits. Knowing, for instance, that planes are overpowered, and using a plane strat strategy is "legal" and therefore fun in being a disruptive war tactic. We could, at the same time we "fix" trade bots, "fix" planes as well, but that would just remove the fun of the game.

Edited by A Boy Named Crow

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5 hours ago, Alex said:

This is already the case.

A 5 minute delay is pretty extreme - people would just stop using the API and scrape in-game pages directly, which is hard on server performance and would negatively impact everyone's gameplay, without changing anything.

These "trade bots" are just notification bots. There is already a delay on how fast the information shows up in the API, and ultimately there's just no way to prevent people from doing this. I could delete the API page and people would simply scrape the web pages, which I addressed above as a non-solution that negatively affects everyone's experience. I could just ban every nation that accepts a trade too fast, but that's hardly fair and will just result in be banning people who haven't done anything wrong and people quitting the game because of ridiculous moderation practices.

The only real way to prevent people from using notification bots effectively is to put captchas on every page, but I don't think you (or anyone else) wants that. As a result, a compromise has to be made, and I don't see any suggestions that are better than the balance reached in the status quo.

The server performance already negatively impacts gameplay on a daily basis, all you need is 100 people online and it starts getting slow.

If the vast majority of alliances now make a trade bot, how will that affect server performance?

Is it really that difficult to implement a confirmation box when you select submit on create a trade offer?

Why is there a ban on automated trading bots? What is the reasoning behind this ban, compared to semi-automated trading bots?

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18 hours ago, Tiberius said:

Why is there a ban on automated trading bots? What is the reasoning behind this ban, compared to semi-automated trading bots?

Letting a bot play the game for you would mean that you are effectively sitting there doing nothing while getting free money, which to me, is the definition of cheating.

While a notification bot is useful and certainly can help you play better, it still requires some input from the user, and like I said, there's effectively no way to prevent people from setting up notification bots anyway. Rules need to be enforceable, so it doesn't make sense to have a rule against something if there's nothing I can do about it anyway.

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I do sell and buy a whole lot, well a lot would be pretty small to the bigger alliances, but I feel that if you make a mistake then its your mistake, I have personally been caught a few times buying Steel at a low price and for some reason it picks food and i spend millions on food that will be gone within seconds.

The only idea to come out of all of this i really like is a check box instead of a drop down menu, this way it would be pretty hard to make the mistake, more so if your rushing to get a profit.

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