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Eliminating the Double Buy


Alex
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The blitz aspect isn't really the root of the issue. The issue if someone wants to counteract the double buy tactics, then they have to be on at update constantly throughout a war to avoid it. This isn't going to be doable for many players.  It doesn't matter if someone has full mil or not, because someone much bigger can sell off, maintain some aircraft and rebuy a decent aircraft amount along with the other units and use the fact the smaller nation has the score from higher mil against them.

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Your initial point is the only valid one you have, but it's a point that even with this particular idea - those same players will still continue to have issues, just different ones that come from this.  The latter one won't be fixed with this particular idea.

Double Buys allow a user a chance to come back into the fight.  Just using myself as an example, when I was zeroed out, I was still capable of fighting back due to Double Buy strategy (Various reasons as to why, as well).

This idea that Sheepy posted, if someone was zeroed out, wouldn't have a chance of fighting back at all.  As their buy back effectiveness will be reset at server change.  All of Sheepy's ideas lately has been ways to figure out how to give players more of a chance of "getting back into the fight".

 

So in essence, it won't fix anything other than give people the illusion that they have a more capable effort into fighting a war - which will be proven false once they get 3 slotted and zeroed, and then they'll see that they can only buy back anywhere from 10-60% of their military by the time they log in.  Go ahead and test it, you'll see it for yourself.

Edited by Buorhann
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7 hours ago, Alex said:

This proposal is pretty straightforward. It would serve two purposes:

1) Eliminates the "Double Buy"

2) Eliminates the need to do blitzes at the game's midnight. The game mechanics would no longer be reliant on that specific hour change.

How it would work:

I'm going to use Soldiers as an example. Every day, you can buy 1000 Soldiers per Barracks. Under this proposed change, you would instead be able to buy 83 (1000/12) Soldiers per Barracks per turn. This would stack up to 12 turns (1 day) for a total of 1000 Soldiers per day.

So you would have some 'reserve' of units that could be recruited instantly, and each turn that would increase by 1/12 of the daily amount, capped at 12/12 of the daily amount.

It would make sense to do a slight tweak to unit numbers to account for dividing by 12, I.E. Barracks allow you to recruit 1,200 instead of 1,000 soldiers per day, meaning +100 per turn instead of +83.3 per turn.

This has been proposed, and I think was mostly well received. I want to bring it back up again for further consideration.

 

Intriguing. You should probably test it out on the test server first, and if it's well received, then add it to the main server.

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Another issue is that if logging on at certain times is an issue for some, logging on many times throughout the day will also be an issue. Having twelves buys a day or however many buys a day to will not allow people to maximize their buying potential as not everyone will be able to log on to very few hours. 

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Chief Financial Officer of The Syndicate

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In general anything which reduces the importance of the Day Tick is likely to be a good idea.  The concerns about not being able to recover without a double buy are valid, but does not change the double buy being a game artifact.   Perhaps allow "crash recruitment" of twice as many units bit at a substantially increased cost?

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29 minutes ago, Esentia said:

In general anything which reduces the importance of the Day Tick is likely to be a good idea.  The concerns about not being able to recover without a double buy are valid, but does not change the double buy being a game artifact.   Perhaps allow "crash recruitment" of twice as many units bit at a substantially increased cost?

>No nation attached to this account

???

That could be an idea though if Double Buy is really that big of a concern.  Increase the financial cost of recruiting early in a day's turn instead of limiting it.  I'm not sold on that idea, but I'd rather that than a percentage rebuy.

Edited by Buorhann
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The stack system on test server was an utter disaster that made updeclares relatively easy to exhaust. If you wanted to change the military rebuy updates to time from when the war was declared, that'd be one thing and it'd space out the rebuys in the way that this was intended without favoring someone that can be on five minutes before one hour of the day, but using a stack system overpowers someone that has more buy capacity to begin with and makes them nearly inexhaustable.

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An alternative solution is to have 2 updates throughout the day. One at midnight, one at noon game time, each enabling half the days units purchased. This would enable defenders a chance to recover, without the entire war hinging on 30 minutes of the day every day.

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40 minutes ago, Esentia said:

In general anything which reduces the importance of the Day Tick is likely to be a good idea.  The concerns about not being able to recover without a double buy are valid, but does not change the double buy being a game artifact.   Perhaps allow "crash recruitment" of twice as many units bit at a substantially increased cost?

Alex already floated that idea around before iirc with being able to buy "mercenaries" from other people.

 

Why not just increase the amount of time it can stack? 

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13 minutes ago, Auctor said:

The stack system on test server was an utter disaster that made updeclares relatively easy to exhaust. If you wanted to change the military rebuy updates to time from when the war was declared, that'd be one thing and it'd space out the rebuys in the way that this was intended without favoring someone that can be on five minutes before one hour of the day, but using a stack system overpowers someone that has more buy capacity to begin with and makes them nearly inexhaustable.

Agreed in part, really interesting idea.  But, how would it work if someone declares multiple wars? Would it work back from the last war declared? Not sure a variable moving target can be set.  

I like the idea of setting your own rebuy time tbh, would also create more strategy, because you wouldn't necessarily know when your opponent could rebuy (Maybe a spy operation?)

 

We're in total agreement though about the last time this was introduced on Test Server, not a fun experience. 

Edited by rapmanej
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You already tried this very thing two years on the test server and scrapped it as it basically always allowed stronger nations to win wars. How is this different now than it was then?

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I'm with Bour re: the double buy being good for strategy/underdogs.

re: update time, you could add 1 turn or subtract 1 turn so update rotates every 12 days

I will take responsibility for what I have done, if I must fall, I will rise each time a better man.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Malal said:

You already tried this very thing two years on the test server and scrapped it as it basically always allowed stronger nations to win wars. How is this different now than it was then?

The main difference was you could stack two thirds of your max military, which is what helped the stronger nations. This would only let you stack a day's worth at most per the OP.

 

4 hours ago, LeotheGreat said:

An alternative solution is to have 2 updates throughout the day. One at midnight, one at noon game time, each enabling half the days units purchased. This would enable defenders a chance to recover, without the entire war hinging on 30 minutes of the day every day.

 

This would be a decent compromise.

An additional thing that could be raised is that if a nation is down to 0 of one unit, then they can recruit at a 12/12 rate instead of one per turn. This would enable it to be used as a comeback.

Edited by Roquentin
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You guys are also thinking way too much on "coming back" and instead not looking at situations where control is already established, by separating it like that - you're making it that much easier for someone to maintain control.  Hence why higher city nations will benefit from these suggestions (And they should, actually).

Once you miss your opportunity to buy military for the day or half-day, whatever it is you're thinking, that's wasted potential units.

If I establish Air Control on you, I'll be establishing Ground Control soon after too, or vice-versa.  And after I establish those controls, I'll be refreshing my military quickly after - which you'll be missing since chances are, you won't be on-line at the time.  Once I have you locked down, that's a 33% penalty on your Air and a 50% penalty on your Tanks.  You're not coming back regardless of how spread out you make the buy back, because chances are - you'll be sitting there waiting for an opportunity to get back in the fight, and I'll be waiting as well with the same amount of military units to buy back as well.

--------------------

On a different note, the war mechanic needs a complete overhaul if you want to do things like this.  In other games, the more military buildings you have - the more time reduction you have on training units.  Same as with Econ buildings, the more you have, the more you produce.

Why not just remove the improvement limit, put a base population recruit limit per city, and either have Military Buildings lower the time of training military or increase the population recruit limit?  (Same as Econ buildings when it comes to increasing production percentage based on population)

This would give the players more variety and control in their playstyle.  Those who focus more on Econ could be highly vulnerable to those who focus more on Military, however those with Econ can easily supply their more militant alliance members.

It's a rough idea, but I'm sure this would allow more balancing possibilities than what we currently have now.  And it'd help separate this game from it's counterparts.

Edited by Buorhann
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I'm going to have to go with Buorhann here, these changes will help the larger nations way more than the smaller ones. I don't see a reason to try in a war that I got down declared if I can't even double buy to win after.

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14 hours ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

I dont know how hard this would be to code in, but can you make it so that players can set their military reset time to a time of their choosing?  So if game update is at 5am for someone, they can change the time that their military rebuy occurs to be say 5pm instead of 5am.  and make it something that can be changed like your nation location or gov type. 

Then you can also charge credits if you want to change it again (it would have to be on a 12 turn delay as to not abuse it) 

This would actually add a new layer of strategy to war.

I thought about almost the same thing to do. But I thought that this thing could be managed by alliances. Setting military reset in edit option in alliance page by government. And be visable in alliance description so nation joining to the alliance will see if military reset time for him/her is convenient or not. Maybe it will makes that people will be gathering in alliances with similar time zones. And maybe it can makes them more active in game or at discord due to more people active at the same time. 

Setting military reset by government also can make alliances more unique and maybe it could bring us to more wars in the future. So far it's pretty boring because you know every alliance can hit only at update time. But with this you can expect to be hit any time.
It can also probably effect about choosing the ally. For now more important thing is to be  same tiered. With this alliances will need to take into consideration same time of military reset(time zone). IMO this option should be able to be change from time to time like color or gov type. So alliances can trick opponents about time of their blitz.

 

PS. Oh and to make it even more strategy wise it can be added something like it was done with taxes - military reset(tax) brackets. So you can set a teams with same time zones.

Edited by Hit-Girl
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78be39c24ea9f3a0med.jpg 

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15 hours ago, Bortwald said:

You can set up day change to change everyday, making the last turn of the day lasting  1 (or 3) hours.

So days will be of 23 (or 25) hours and the day change line will move everyday!

Is it becouse I don't have a profile pic? Is it becouse I cannot properly write in english? Or simply is it becouse my idea really sux?

No one liked my idea! I'm astonished lol

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@alex

I honestly dislike double buys and the fixed time frames for blitzs. However, double buys are currently the only real way to come back in a war. Until that changes double buys needs to stay. We've actually tested this before as others have pointed out and it doesn't work.

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26 minutes ago, Sketchy said:

Maybe just leave the war system alone and focus attention on the broken econ?

To be fair, if the Econ is fixed, it would relieve some of the issues that warring has (On the resource side).  So it'd be a step in the right direction of helping people "get back up".

So I second this notion.

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