Discovering the Past Through Primary Sources

[Saru]

So UPN gov doesn't even know what's going on in their own alliance, and that's somehow Partisan's fault? Give me a break.

 

We found out about what was going on, and warned Ole to distance himself from tS. But my claim is that Partisan knew fully well what he was doing, he knew that he had no leverage with either me or Hansarius, and therefore seeked out a new naive government member who he had worked with in the last war to try and use for his own ends. 

 

Like I said our stance from the leadership was made clear. Mensa HQ knew it, and I would be surprised if they didn't relay it to you.

[Prefonteen]

I take it you just respond without reading. If you had read, then you would of had the answers to your questions -- which you already knew.

 

He acted on his own accord, and was warned against doing specifically that (for this very reason, because I had warned him that you are a snake in the grass and would sell him out as soon as you got the chance.) Like I said we had made our official stance clear to Mensa, and the rest of our allies. It was public knowledge by that point that we will only join if our allies get countered.

 

If it's something you don't believe, then query Pfeiffer, and if he is willing to be honest, he will let you know that I made it clear that I didn't want to be apart of the coalition channels, because we did not see ourselves apart of the coalition. When I spoke to Pfeiffer and Ole about the said channel, they said to me that it was moreso a channel where Mensa's allies hang out, than an official coalition channel.

 

Anyway, you know full well that UPN's stance official wasn't reflected by Ole's opinions. You were just glad you found someone naive enough to try and use for your own ends.

 

Are you seriously attempting to pin your inability to properly conduct diplomacy on me now? Provided that you made no effort to talk to tS, and instead Ole was in continuous touch with us, we logically concluded that he served as your representative, provided his government position. Your support was initially vowed. You later flip flopped it into the 'we will only join if our allies get countered' mantra, and even then your government member claimed that UPN would support tS. These contradictions are not tS' fault in any way shape and form, but instead rest squarely on your (UPN's) shoulders.

 

You have never contacted tS about Ole working on his own accord. Nor have you ever made any attempt whatsoever to proactively ensure that your stance was clear to tS. You did clarify your position when I queried you about the matter, a while after Rose declared war on tS.

 

This has nothing to do with me 'selling out' anyone. It is a direct reaction to your own machinations. The only 'snake in the grass' here is you.

[Boony]

Are you seriously attempting to pin your inability to properly conduct diplomacy on me now? Provided that you made no effort to talk to tS, and instead Ole was in continuous touch with us, we logically concluded that he served as your representative, provided his government position. Your support was initially vowed. You later flip flopped it into the 'we will only join if our allies get countered' mantra, and even then your government member claimed that UPN would support tS. These contradictions are not tS' fault in any way shape and form, but instead rest squarely on your (UPN's) shoulders.

 

You have never contacted tS about Ole working on his own accord. Nor have you ever made any attempt whatsoever to proactively ensure that your stance was clear to tS. You did clarify your position when I queried you about the matter, a while after Rose declared war on tS.

 

This has nothing to do with me 'selling out' anyone. It is a direct reaction to your own machinations. The only 'snake in the grass' here is you.

Stop being so obtuse.

[Prefonteen]

We found out about what was going on, and warned Ole to distance himself from tS. But my claim is that Partisan knew fully well what he was doing, he knew that he had no leverage with either me or Hansarius, and therefore seeked out a new naive government member who he had worked with in the last war to try and use for his own ends. 

 

Like I said our stance from the leadership was made clear. Mensa HQ knew it, and I would be surprised if they didn't relay it to you.

 

Yes, yes. Ofcourse this too was just another manipulation by me. Jesus man. Want a tin foil hat with that?

[Saru]

Are you seriously attempting to pin your inability to properly conduct diplomacy on me now? Provided that you made no effort to talk to tS, and instead Ole was in continuous touch with us, we logically concluded that he served as your representative, provided his government position. Your support was initially vowed. You later flip flopped it into the 'we will only join if our allies get countered' mantra, and even then your government member claimed that UPN would support tS. These contradictions are not tS' fault in any way shape and form, but instead rest squarely on your (UPN's) shoulders.

 

You have never contacted tS about Ole working on his own accord. Nor have you ever made any attempt whatsoever to proactively ensure that your stance was clear to tS. You did clarify your position when I queried you about the matter, a while after Rose declared war on tS.

 

This has nothing to do with me 'selling out' anyone. It is a direct reaction to your own machinations. The only 'snake in the grass' here is you.

 

I'm not going to talk in circles. Our position was made clear to Mensa and all of our allies. It was public knowledge that we were going to back our allies -- and our allies only. We specified this to Mensa at the time of signing our treaty, and just before they went to war. Throughout the war I also refused invitations to come to the "channel" I was being invited to by Pfeiffer, and made it clear every single time that we are not apart of the coalition, and wish to distance ourselves from that.

 

We didn't know the contents of the conversations he had with you, this is the first time I am seeing many of them. So of course we didn't contact you. When we did speak to you, our position was made clear. And when we did speak to Ole, we made UPN's stance clear to him too. You're not an idiot Partisan and you know full well what you were attempting to do. You knew that Hans/me were the senior heads at UPN at the time, and that you had no leverage with us. So you sought out a naive new guy -- who you somehow managed to get onside.

[Roy Mustang]

I take it you just respond without reading. If you had read, then you would of had the answers to your questions -- which you already knew.

 

He acted on his own accord, and was warned against doing specifically that (for this very reason, because I had warned him that you are a snake in the grass and would sell him out as soon as you got the chance.) Like I said we had made our official stance clear to Mensa, and the rest of our allies. It was public knowledge by that point that we will only join if our allies get countered.

 

If it's something you don't believe, then query Pfeiffer, and if he is willing to be honest, he will let you know that I made it clear that I didn't want to be apart of the coalition channels, because we did not see ourselves apart of the coalition. When I spoke to Pfeiffer and Ole about the said channel, they said to me that it was moreso a channel where Mensa's allies hang out, than an official coalition channel.

 

Anyway, you know full well that UPN's stance official wasn't reflected by Ole's opinions. You were just glad you found someone naive enough to try and use for your own ends.

 

I'm only going to address the bit about Ole going off on his own accord:

 

If that is true, then y'all really need to get your act together internally. Seriously. A normal member going off the reservation warrants a warning. A gov member should damn well know better already, a warning is less than nothing. Since you didn't shut it down immediately (for whatever reason), it's pretty reasonable that we, y'know, took his word at face value.

 

No one cares that you and Hans are "senior heads", whatever that means. Y'all (you and Ole) are on the same line on the AA page, in my mind that makes his word every bit as representative of UPN as yours is. 

 

 

Luckily for you, one of our subsidiaries, the British East Indies Company, offers industry-leading management training programs. Perhaps post-war we could enroll you in a few. At an appropriate market rate, of course.

Edited October 18, 2015 by Roy Mustang

[Vincent]

Sounds more like a shit MoD.

 

We didn't have nor intended on signing an MDP with Rose and that wasn't our own agenda-that was an agenda Rose shared with us at the time.

Ya . Damn !@#$ing right. Not your agenda but you still proceeded to roll VE Nevertheless

[Buorhann]

Unless I'm missing something, I don't think Partisan is referring to UPN's stance with Mensa at all.  I think he's more concerned with what he was told by a UPN official in regards to the war.  The log shows that UPN and Syndicate were going to work together, well, according to that official.  It is not up to Pfeiffer to be UPN's official and translate it to Partisan.

 

That is strictly between UPN and Syndicate.

[Placentica]

Is it official DEIC policy to actually attack a MDP ally instead of defending them like they should?  Or is that just the policy of your leader?

 

Can DEIC address why they are violating one of their treaties?  Or are all of DEIC's treaties optional and easily cast aside?

[Saru]

Unless I'm missing something, I don't think Partisan is referring to UPN's stance with Mensa at all.  I think he's more concerned with what he was told by a UPN official in regards to the war.  The log shows that UPN and Syndicate were going to work together, well, according to that official.  It is not up to Pfeiffer to be UPN's official and translate it to Partisan.

 

That is strictly between UPN and Syndicate.

 

Given that Mensa knew our stance, and it was your war, it would be naive to think that you didn't mention it to them. 

[Atzuya]

 
I guess this is relevant to this line of discussion

[Filthy Fifths]

So UPN gov doesn't even know what's going on in their own alliance, and that's somehow Partisan's fault? Give me a break.

 

I can't believe I liked a post that Kadin posted.

[Charles Bolivar]

Its pretty well known you can't trust DEIC.

 

 

Seems oddly applicable.

[Charles Bolivar]

Funny how The Syndicate keep pleading Foul play and you all did this and that.When in fact this whole war is The Syndicates's fault.You planned to attack TC when you where  allied to VE and Rose and you have continued to plan to attack TC now you are allied to Mensa and SK.If they had not gone along with it would you have dropped them and moved on to another set of allies to try your plan? 

 

Actually, VE, Rose and Syndicate together planned to attack UPN.

[Buorhann]

Given that Mensa knew our stance, and it was your war, it would be naive to think that you didn't mention it to them. 

 

Yes, but it's not Mensa's duty to clarify it to Syndicate.  That is something UPN/Syndicate should've discussed in-depth, not Mensa and Syndicate.

Edited October 18, 2015 by Buorhann

[Charles Bolivar]

I'm going to leave this here, since once again you are either lying through your teeth, or your government has failed to properly communicate internally. The following logs are excerpts from the period leading up to the tS involvement in the last war. Prior to the Rose pre-empt, UPN representative Ole clearly assured us on various occasions that UPN was going to fight on Mensa's side regardless of the situation. The following logs are chronological:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Despite these promises, you later began backtracking and claiming that you would only defend Mensa, as opposed to fighting a coalition-wide effort. One can only suspect that the reasoning is rooted in your grudge for tS.

 

Now some may claim that Ole 'did not speak for UPN. The following logs clearly show that Ole was the designated representative to us, on behalf of UPN government.

 

(referring to Hans):

 

 

 

As I mentioned before: Your continuous attempts at spinning reality are laughable at best. You did not 'claim from scratch that you would only defend Mena'. You did engage in coalition-wide diplomacy with your ally and their allies (regardless of our past) on good faith, and backed away from your commitments when it was already too late to alter course. You did, via your stance, your backroom diplomacy with VE and various other parties, steer the damage of that war onto tS and Guardian, as we suspected and confronted your representative with. You lied about it, and have now turned around to attack us again.

 

Your reason for war is fine- calling us a rival and acting on that is fine. Deliberately putting out a series of false notions in order to discredit us is not, and we will counter you with facts every time you do so.

 

Man, partisan, you must really be something.

 

Not only did you have enough influence over Impero, VE and rose to basically manipulate them into planning to roll UPN, you literally know more about UPN's foreign policy than saru does.

 

I am impressed

 

Edit: also, I would be annoyed if I was ole tbh. He basically is being labelled as an off the reservation government member for performing Saru's orders. Ole looks pretty reasonably competent too, for saru to then turn around and then say blah blah, Ole messed up doing his own thing when it is clear he wasn't doing his own thing. I dunno, I know I would be annoyed at taking the blame for Saru's incompetence. Someone just informed me however that Saru is known as Robster elsewhere so it all makes sense though.

Edited October 18, 2015 by Charles the Tyrant

[Valakias]

Actually, VE, Rose and Syndicate together planned to attack UPN.

 

Leave it Charles, they are so desperate to paint us as the devil that its almost laughable how miserably they are failing at it.

[Delyruin]

All the good Dutch stuff is from Belgium anyway.

[Isolatar]

Thanks for exposing the leaker in Rose's gov Partisan.

[Saru]

Ole messed up doing his own thing when it is clear he wasn't doing his own thing. I dunno, I know I would be annoyed at taking the blame for Saru's incompetence. Someone just informed me however that Saru is known as Robster elsewhere so it all makes sense though.

 

Yet again, someone who is posting without reading. I will repeat. He did his own thing, and did not represent the alliances official stance.

 

I often encouraged him to stay clear of Partisan, and warned him that he was a snake in the grass. 

Edited October 18, 2015 by Saru

[Tali]

 

I often encouraged him to stay clear of Partisan, and warned him that he was a snake in the grass.

 

 

[Wayne]

Yet again, someone who is posting without reading. I will repeat. He did his own thing, and did not represent the alliances official stance.

 

I often encouraged him to stay clear of Partisan, and warned him that he was a snake in the grass. 

 

 

Let me get this right, Hans is big boss man, you and Ole are a similar level in leadership, yet when he speaks it is his own voice he uses, yet when you do it, it's UPN's tonuge that you use?  Or do people have to guess when either of you speak for UPN?

[Prefonteen]

 

I take it you just respond without reading. If you had read, then you would of had the answers to your questions -- which you already knew.

 

He acted on his own accord, and was warned against doing specifically that (for this very reason, because I had warned him that you are a snake in the grass and would sell him out as soon as you got the chance.) Like I said we had made our official stance clear to Mensa, and the rest of our allies. It was public knowledge by that point that we will only join if our allies get countered.

 

If it's something you don't believe, then query Pfeiffer, and if he is willing to be honest, he will let you know that I made it clear that I didn't want to be apart of the coalition channels, because we did not see ourselves apart of the coalition. When I spoke to Pfeiffer and Ole about the said channel, they said to me that it was moreso a channel where Mensa's allies hang out, than an official coalition channel.

 

Anyway, you know full well that UPN's stance official wasn't reflected by Ole's opinions. You were just glad you found someone naive enough to try and use for your own ends.

 

 

Yet again, someone who is posting without reading. I will repeat. He did his own thing, and did not represent the alliances official stance.

 

I often encouraged him to stay clear of Partisan, and warned him that he was a snake in the grass.

 

 

 

Once again: either your government has screwed up massively by not knowing what your own top brass is up to, or you are lieing through your teeth here, pretending that Ole was working on his own accord. Damage control and all that. The fact is: At the time Ole planned alongside us, he was listed as a member of UPN top governmentThe same rank which you hold. Upon being asked wether I should take the topic up with UPN, I was told not to do so as you 'might still be grumpy'. In the same log I confirmed this and stated that I was okay with him serving as your representative in that case. A notion which he again confirmed.

 

The fact that you are having communicative issues within your government does NOT have anything to do with the Syndicate somehow manipulating you. That notion is laughable at best. Whether you 'warned Ole to stay away from me' in your internal discussions - discussions tS was NOT privy to - is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. He acted as your representative. He made promises while operating in an official capacity. And you backed up on those promises, whether it be deliberate or not. 

 

Now, the transgression of events since is too convenient for us to ignore. Your actions steered damage our way. Post-war, you attacked us and our allies on a flimsy premise. The correlation between your handling of the last war, and the occurrence of this war is a giant red flag and you know it. You can put your fingers in your ears and yell "la la la la la Partisan is evil" as much as you want, but you are not fooling anyone.

 

Pots and kettles, Saru.

[Brooklyn666]

Is it official DEIC policy to actually attack a MDP ally instead of defending them like they should?  Or is that just the policy of your leader?

 

Can DEIC address why they are violating one of their treaties?  Or are all of DEIC's treaties optional and easily cast aside?

 

They can't or won't address it because it would reveal their deceitful nature. It's truly astonishing how they continue to grasp at straws on this one. The treaty clearly doesn't say what they claim it does, and harping on it over and over again doesn't make it so. It only goes to show that they had this canned non-response ready to go because they were already planning to intentionally misinterpret a treaty they willingly signed and use it to their advantage to stab said ally in the back. I think it's safe to say that's their policy.

[Valakias]

UPN FA being like