Discovering the Past Through Primary Sources

[Roy Mustang]

It actually does. That makes it a weird treaty perhaps but there you have it...

 

In the present scenario, DEIC was not obligated to defend SK. Fine, cool, weird-ass treaty but okay. But after having gone out of their way not to declare war on SK initially, to turn around and fight an undeclared war against them because... idk, was UPN struggling against SK or something? And not even do them the courtesy of saying "hey dudes, we're not buds anymore" is pretty low.

[Tali]

In the present scenario, DEIC was not obligated to defend SK. Fine, cool, weird-ass treaty but okay. But after having gone out of their way not to declare war on SK initially, to turn around and fight an undeclared war against them because... idk, was UPN struggling against SK or something? And not even do them the courtesy of saying "hey dudes, we're not buds anymore" is pretty low.

Its pretty well known you can't trust DEIC.

[stetonic]

Its pretty well known you can't trust DEIC.

 

Why because we follow the rules in a treaty which was not even written by us.Yeah must be really hard to trust someone who plays by the rules

[Cody K]

Why because we follow the rules in a treaty which was not even written by us.Yeah must be really hard to trust someone who plays by the rules

DEIC had plenty of input and AGREED to sign the treaty. Holy !@#$, stop acting like we forced you guys to sign with us. Holy shit.

[Roy Mustang]

Why because we follow the rules in a treaty which was not even written by us.Yeah must be really hard to trust someone who plays by the rules

 

Forget the treaty rules, how about having some basic courtesy for your ally? 

[stetonic]

DEIC had plenty of input and AGREED to sign the treaty. Holy !@#$, stop acting like we forced you guys to sign with us. Holy shit.

 

Well stop crying about it.You signed the damn thing to and you knew by having that clause that this situation was going to happen 

[Wayne]

Why would you even sign a treaty that you perceive to be one sided?

[Prefonteen]

Well stop crying about it.You signed the damn thing to and you knew by having that clause that this situation was going to happen 

 

Yes, yes. When SK signed the treaty, they definitely expecte their ally in DEIC to outright attack them.

 

That is what treaties are written for after all, right?

[Tali]

Why because we follow the rules in a treaty which was not even written by us.Yeah must be really hard to trust someone who plays by the rules

Yes, but attacking an alliance you do have a treaty with is pretty shady, even if a clause makes it where it can be "put on hold".

 

Remind me to never agree to a treaty with DEIC.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Olivier Mira

[Tali]

Why would you even sign a treaty that you perceive to be one sided?

THIS.

[Dark Specter]

All of TC is filled with nothing but scum

[stetonic]

Funny how The Syndicate keep pleading Foul play and you all did this and that.When in fact this whole war is The Syndicates's fault.You planned to attack TC when you where  allied to VE and Rose and you have continued to plan to attack TC now you are allied to Mensa and SK.If they had not gone along with it would you have dropped them and moved on to another set of allies to try your plan? 

[Arthur Wellington]

THIS.

CAPSLOCK IS THE TRUTH!

 

 

because it suited both parties back then perhaps? besides, its not like 78 nations declared war on SK.. quit being a baby, accept the pixel dust and move on ffs..

[Hooves]

Funny how The Syndicate keep pleading Foul play and you all did this and that.When in fact this whole war is The Syndicates's fault.You planned to attack TC when you where  allied to VE and Rose and you have continued to plan to attack TC now you are allied to Mensa and SK.If they had not gone along with it would you have dropped them and moved on to another set of allies to try your plan? 

You sir, get a like because you're funny.

 

I'm not even gonna bother explaining things to people who don't want to listen. So continue on and believe what you believe. The arguments have been said to death already at this point.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Hooves

[Roy Mustang]

Funny how The Syndicate keep pleading Foul play and you all did this and that.When in fact this whole war is The Syndicates's fault.You planned to attack TC when you where  allied to VE and Rose and you have continued to plan to attack TC now you are allied to Mensa and SK.If they had not gone along with it would you have dropped them and moved on to another set of allies to try your plan? 

 

There's a way simpler explanation to all this: It blew up in our faces, so we decided to drop the plans to attack UPN. Y'all will clearly never believe us when we say that, but as a government member involved in said decision, it's the truth. We wanted to sit in the corner and play with our blocks for the foreseeable future. Could we see a war with TC potentially on the horizon? Sure, in the same way we could see another war with Paragon potentially on the horizon. It's the way of the world with three power poles, someone is going to fight someone eventually. Doesn't mean we wanted to be the aggressors.

[Prefonteen]

Funny how The Syndicate keep pleading Foul play and you all did this and that.When in fact this whole war is The Syndicates's fault.You planned to attack TC when you where  allied to VE and Rose and you have continued to plan to attack TC now you are allied to Mensa and SK.If they had not gone along with it would you have dropped them and moved on to another set of allies to try your plan? 

 

That's the problem. The latter claim is categorically false.

 

Now, we are not allied to the covenant. We have never been allied to the covenant. At the time (during the leaks), we did not owe you anything. You were the only natural rival to the Paragon bloc, by virtue guardiansphere being no more. Planning a war against you was prudent for the long-term survival since, as Saru (iirc?) admitted in the other thread: "you knew it would come to a showdown as well, and time was your friend". 

 

Our allies were well involved with the notion of attacking you. As stated many times before: There was disagreement on the order in which to do it, and the methods to be used.

 

Our dropping of Paragon was rooted in a set of entirely different, non-Covenant related problems. Specifically: It was caused by a growing rift between tS and VE. The basis for this rift was laid during the war on Guardian, and it simmered throughout the months.

 

Now I need to ask you this: Why would we ally Mensa in order to roll Covenant? Mensa has been a huge proponent of UPN throughout the time we have communicated with them, and have been allied to them. Plotting against Covenant after our Paragon departure would have cost us Mensa, and i'm certain continuation would not have made BK happy either.

 

We frankly did not have the will, nor the intent to continue planning against you, if only because we were in a position where we did not even have *room* to plot for an offensive on anyone, due to the threat of both Covenant and/or Paragon (via VE) attacking us.

 

Now, I will state this again. We are not 'claiming foul play'. You have !@#$ed over an ally and we are pointing that out, as is our right to do so (much like you lads have repeatedly harped on about tS' supposed devious acts). We are also countering and relaying the various misconceptions which your side is deliberately putting out in hopes of discrediting tS and swaying public support.

 

Your reply to our arguments is: "BUT LOOK AT THEM"

Edited October 17, 2015 by Partisan

[Beowulf the Second]

Okay I don't know really too much about the technical details, but imho attacking your MDP ally is stupid and you shouldn't have done it, technicality in the treaty or no. This is because you've just thrown doubt onto all of your other alliances- you don't want to be 'that guy' that makes everyone double/triple check their treaties with you just to make sure they're safe against their own ally lmao

[Jon Snow]

Why because we follow the rules in a treaty which was not even written by us.Yeah must be really hard to trust someone who plays by the rules

 

Ok let's go ahead and dissect this.

 

First and foremost, DEIC and SK jointly wrote the treaty which would not be valid unless it was signed and agreed by both DEIC and SK. Secondly, the rule that you are referring to is Article IV where it states if a signatory attacks a direct ally of the other, this suspends the treaty in terms of being obligated to defend the other. You know as well as I do that no where does it state that we stop being allies to one another and that you may attack us, with out even posting a DoW for that matter.

 

Next let's go ahead and reference Article III of this very same treaty "Should either of the Signatories come under attack, the other pledges military assistance." Considering that UPN attacked us before you attacked tS, this specifically triggers our treaty. Upon review of the tC bloc treaty I see nowhere that there is a Supremacy Clause that would invalidate ours, nor is there one in your UPN Treaty. In fact, by all accords you enacted an oA to escape your duties for our MDP.

 

Finally lets go ahead and bring up Article II "The Signatories pledge mutual public respect, to resolve any issues in private, and to refrain from aggressive actions towards each other." We've tried to resolve conflicts in embassies, IRC, and PMs to your govt only to be told that you guys don't want to talk about your actions until after the war is over. To then turn around and launch attacks to your own ally just continues to spit in our face while you drive the knife deeper into our backs.

 

 

Hi person who is irrelevant to all of this.DEIC do care about treaties which is why we have not been involved in the last 2 major wars.The great VE war we had allies on both side's so to honor our treaties we stayed out and the last war no treaty was activated which ment we where not called into action 

 

If this is the case why did you not exempt yourselves from this war yet again as you had allies on both sides?

[Ivan]

All of TC is filled with nothing but scum

 

Thanks. Why are we scum?

 

Also, for people using the DoW timing to criticize DEIC -- obviously this was a joint tC operation. We decided to post separate DoWs instead of a single one. We all agreed to declare at the same time, obviously we could have all synchronized our posts to all post at once, but we each posted around update when we gave the go ahead. You're grasping for straws. If UPN declared and then DEIC waited a day to declare, then I could see your point. But a few minutes is really a stretch considering it was a joint tC operation and DEIC didn't hit SK. What's happening now with these isolated wars against SK I have no idea.

 

And last, I imagine all of us can foresee the DEIC-SK treaty not being around much longer post-war.

[Hooves]

Edit: mod please delete 

Edited October 17, 2015 by Hooves

[Wayne]

Funny how The Syndicate keep pleading Foul play and you all did this and that.When in fact this whole war is The Syndicates's fault.You planned to attack TC when you where  allied to VE and Rose and you have continued to plan to attack TC now you are allied to Mensa and SK.If they had not gone along with it would you have dropped them and moved on to another set of allies to try your plan? 

 

What plan have Mensa gone along with?  As far as we are concerned, we are honouring our treaty with SK and tS.  If tS had struck the first blow, we would have been on UPN's side.

[Sabriel]

Thanks. Why are we scum?

 

Also, for people using the DoW timing to criticize DEIC -- obviously this was a joint tC operation. We decided to post separate DoWs instead of a single one. We all agreed to declare at the same time, obviously we could have all synchronized our posts to all post at once, but we each posted around update when we gave the go ahead. You're grasping for straws. If UPN declared and then DEIC waited a day to declare, then I could see your point. But a few minutes is really a stretch considering it was a joint tC operation and DEIC didn't hit SK. What's happening now with these isolated wars against SK I have no idea.

 

And last, I imagine all of us can foresee the DEIC-SK treaty not being around much longer post-war.

So your argument for why DEIC isn't violating their MD treaty is because they actively planned to violate it with y'all, in the hopes of loopholing their way out of obligations? Oh man. So glad you cleared it up for us, and showed us how good and honourable DEIC is. I, for one, am completely relieved to know that DEIC will uphold their treaties by actively planning to roll their allies, so long as they attempt to loophole their way out of defending said allies. Excellent folks there. FA of the year.

[Filthy Fifths]

The classic oh I wasn't here so I can cast blame bit.

 

Also I'm selling popcorn. Check out my trades on the market!

[Jon Snow]

So your argument for why DEIC isn't violating their MD treaty is because they actively planned to violate it with y'all, in the hopes of loopholing their way out of obligations? Oh man. So glad you cleared it up for us, and showed us how good and honourable DEIC is. I, for one, am completely relieved to know that DEIC will uphold their treaties by actively planning to roll their allies, so long as they attempt to loophole their way out of defending said allies. Excellent folks there. FA of the year.

 

Hey, at least BoC had the honesty to tell us why our own ally did this. More than they've told us so far.

[Spooner]

>DEIC attacks their ally as a part of a blitzkreig gangbang.

 

No wonder most of the community dislikes you. For your sake, I hope you got some sort of political sway with UPN -- nobody will trust you after you've painted a massive target on your back like this.

 

That is if UPN even does trust you.

 

My father gave me some wisdom once. Never trust a girl who would drop her current boyfriend to be with you. It shows a lack of integrity -- without that, there's nothing stopping her from doing the same to you.

 

I'm sure your karma will come in due time DEIC.