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Declare Range Modifiers


Prefontaine
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I don't ever remember hitting a city 25 or smaller nation at all during last war (as a city 30 at the time). even with my infra partially destroyed, it was impossible for me to even hit targets around my city range because their infra was destroyed and/or their military was much smaller. Only time I got to down declare during the war was after Celestial's counter blitz which had practically zero'ed my military. For most of the war, I was doing 5-10 city updeclares since those were the only nations I could fight. Just thought I give a little insight to this.

Edited by darkblade
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17 minutes ago, Zei-Sakura Alsainn said:

Edit: wrote this while on page two still I see this realization came about already, oops >.<

Still a good post - it is good to have an anecdote of someone actually using strategy since @Prefontaineseems to think that doesn't exist (admittedly missile/nuke spam is more common, but if alliances don't commonly utilize a strategy that doesn't mean the strategy is invalid).

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So in order for a c40 to hit a c20, the c20 has to be maxed out, full infra/military and the c40 has to sacrifice billions of dollars in infra and income to be able to reach?  

That is a huge ask for most people to make, if you are going to make this change because 5-8 players in the game do this, I feel like you have bigger fish to fry.

If you insist on making this change, then you should modify the declare ranges to make it so a larger nation can hit any nation that can hit them.

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38 minutes ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

So in order for a c40 to hit a c20, the c20 has to be maxed out, full infra/military and the c40 has to sacrifice billions of dollars in infra and income to be able to reach?  

That is a huge ask for most people to make, if you are going to make this change because 5-8 players in the game do this, I feel like you have bigger fish to fry.

If you insist on making this change, then you should modify the declare ranges to make it so a larger nation can hit any nation that can hit them.

You manipulating it to sound like the c40 has to sell infra.

Literally last war I was a c37 that started with 2800 infra. I naturally lost infra down to below 600 easily and declared war on a c21 that wasn't even militarized and won that war.

" sacrifice billions of dollars in infra and income to be able to reach? " You are making it sound like the c40 is decomming infra on purpose instead of just losing it naturally through fighting the war. Maybe that's the case if you  have infra to sell if it is a dogpile and at that point if you sell infra to hit c20s you are just stupid.  Not much of a sacrifice when its literally you doing what you are suppose to be doing in a war.

Not that I agree with this shit bandaid change, but your reasoning for not having it felt too bs for me.

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2 minutes ago, KingGhost said:

You manipulating it to sound like the c40 has to sell infra.

Literally last war I was a c37 that started with 2800 infra. I naturally lost infra down to below 600 easily and declared war on a c21 that wasn't even militarized and won that war.

" sacrifice billions of dollars in infra and income to be able to reach? " You are making it sound like the c40 is decomming infra on purpose instead of just losing it naturally through fighting the war. Maybe that's the case if you  have infra to sell if it is a dogpile and at that point if you sell infra to hit c20s you are just stupid.  Not much of a sacrifice when its literally you doing what you are suppose to be doing in a war.

Not that I agree with this shit bandaid change, but your reasoning for not having it felt too bs for me.

So you had to lose what? 1.5 billion in infra first to be able to do that?  That is what I am saying.  My nation who took a billion in infra damage last war, it was not feasible to hit anyone below 6k ns and I had to decom military/projects to get into range to hit anyone in the mid 6k range by the end of the war.

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11 minutes ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

So you had to lose what? 1.5 billion in infra first to be able to do that?  That is what I am saying.  My nation who took a billion in infra damage last war, it was not feasible to hit anyone below 6k ns and I had to decom military/projects to get into range to hit anyone in the mid 6k range by the end of the war.

Yeah and losing 1.5b in infra literally takes 1-2 rounds in tiers where there is real fighting. There's no "Sacrifice" When I was fighting I literally didnt think "Oh crap I will have to lose infra to declare on this nation, well time to decom infra so i can hit them".

If you are fighting a "war" and somehow your infra isn't falling below 1000. I don't really think you are fighting. I am only 8 cities behind you and I remember clearly hitting 2.6k NS targets. I don't think we have 3.4k NS difference in down dec.

 

Anyways my point still stands. I lost infra naturally through the nature of wars, you keep bringing it up, it doesn't matter how much it really costs to me in the middle of a war since regardless of whether or not i want it IT WILL BE LOST. How much infra costs in down deccing should literally be a non factor in looking at war changes because if you care about losing infra/income in the middle of war you are focused on the wrong things as well as the fact that by the time you are thinking about down deccing your infra should be gone.

If your infra is not gone by then, paying a decom tax should be fine since it is likely a dogpile war anyways.

I'm assuming by the rest of your statement that you had max mil, of course you will have to decom to downdec that I think we can agree is perfectly reasonable that you should not be able to downdec really far without decoming mil. Projects idk, I don't have enough useless projects to even consider that option.

 

Imo instead of making this change tighten up the city scores to 80-90 (instead of 100 or 75). Make Infra weigh less (That way the losing side can still declare on similar city levels they can't reach cause they have literally 3000+ infra) and then make ship/plane scores less (That way 0 plane cities are not rewarded for running only soldiers tanks, but maxed 5553 nations can be reached easier in whale/high tier)

 

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@KingGhostSRD for the record is talking about a militarized c40 hitting a c20.

 

Your counterargument is kinda worthless when you don't understand what he's talking about. He's not talking about me being zeroed and hitting c14s with 800 infra, nor is he talking about you being zeroed and hitting a c21 at normal peace time setup or even a militarized nation less than half your size.

 

The main talking point of this change is scary whales hitting lower tiers with their full military. This is specifically talking about HoF in particular, who has been doing just that, hitting demilled people smaller than them because their targets are at peacetime infra and readiness and therefore are in range.

 

If anything you're proving the earlier point I made about why this change, and in that same token your suggestions, are shit. Because the people getting [email protected]#$ed aren't the winners, it's the losers. 

I had people VMing out of boredom and annoyance because there's nothing they could really do, the update time made double buying hard, you couldn't punch low enough to do much of anything useful before dying unless you were helping a little harpoon later in the war, and you just got cycled and ground attacked so you couldn't even have soldiers.

 

This isn't enjoyable. I did not enjoy it. Both the suggestion made in this thread and your own, would make it worse. Everyone hated 100 city score for a reason. It meant a downed c30 with nothing was at worst, always in range of high 20s with max and barely scratched infra. Always. And could only hit as low as a 20. A c30 double isn't going to hurt a 20 very much. Even three of them wouldn't pose any serious or realistic threat. I only got that screwed when I double bought, which was still pretty bad, considering you frankly could've kicked me back down with a single c18 with no real trouble at all.

 

None of this will appreciably affect the winning side of a war, and will utterly [email protected]#$ over what little outside tossing one nuke a day the losers can do. You are, in essence, arguing that because HoF exists, all future defeated parties in a war should have truckloads of shit heaped upon them to fix a problem that doesn't need a mechanical solution.

Because the only people doing this, the actual problem, of milled whales hitting mid tier, is HoF. And look, the rest of us have entire blocs. If it bothers us that much i think the solution is very simple to apply. It's just not cheap. And it's certainly not hamfisted poorly thought out suggestions to make this already overly-repetetive game more boring in the one aspect it's supposed to be entertaining in.

 

 

Edited by Zei-Sakura Alsainn
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5 hours ago, Zei-Sakura Alsainn said:

Hun, you should REALLY read the OP again before you spout more nonsense. 

Its 50% of the percentage difference in cities which the OP makes VERY clear.

Gven in your example, that's still a single digit number, but it's almost 3x greater, at 6.75%. 

 

But that still doesn't matter because if you bothered reading what anyone else is saying - particularly those about the losing sides prospects - you'd see the people blitzing (likely winners) are not the ones getting [email protected]#$ed over here.

 

I down declared and doubled on some c14s last war. Fun fact, my c32 double with PB is just a tiny hair over their max. 1050 vs 1056 sorta deal. As a sphere we used attacks like these to help the low tier press up into higher updecs where we had less alive nations, as the downed whales could temporarily have the planes to do the job.

Of course the moment I did my ground and air double, I was bow in range of city 28s and the like, some of which still had over 2000 infra to go with their max military. I had about 800, by the way. 

 

So now, with your change, not only is that whole strategy useless as I would get a -22% on kills against the target, but the people I'm still forever in range of now get an extra bonus of... Oh hey it's our friend 6.75% again! That was an accident but a fun one in my quick calculator math.

 

Edit: wrote this while on page two still I see this realization came about already, oops >.<

The opening "argument" for the change was sort of oddly worded IMO, and I thought it was something like:

C40 declares on c30; 10 cities difference, 50% of that is applied to nerf/buff resulting in 5% overall

image.png.a5be4703da901d0b027a28dc2b4b1764.png
^ That, I took it as "50% of the difference in city count", since, that's sort of what it says. I guess I was wrong though, based on the examples below it

Edited by His Holy Decagon
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I don’t really understand the benefit of that proposed change. The larger someone becomes in city count the bigger he gets a military advantage that’s how the game is designated. If the issue is about the downdeclaring range than solve that issue instead of creating a new one with this proposal.

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The issue seems to be the ability of a fully milled c40 down declaring on a c20 or other comparable differences in city count. However, c40s have put a boatload of time and effort (or donations) into the game, so it only seems fair that they get to be powerhouses. Also, I think this is more an improvement capacity issue than a city count issue. At the end of the day whales have more improvements per city and more cities so they just dominate the improvement game while losing them at about the same rate as everyone else. If c40s can't stay fully milled AND be producing raws/manus while down declaring, I think that would be a win.

The improvement destruction of wars has always seemed off to me. The maximum improvements destroyed per war I can think of would be 11 total (9 ground attacks followed by a nuke for 2) and that would be hitting ALL your rolls. So if I'm slotted, the absolute max improvements I can lose is 33, which for a c30 who starts at 2500 infra is just over 2% of my total improvement slots. These numbers are even worse in reality, with the max you can reliably take out being 8, if you do 4 nukes because without tactician ground attacks only destroy an improvement for 10% immense triumphs, and ships are only slightly better at 15%. Even being sat on during NPO's last time for 7 freaking months, I was continuously overfilled with improvements relative to my infra. This advantage is better for whales because 33 improvements over 40 cities with 60 improvements each isn't even a drop in the bucket. However that same damage is massive to a c15 who start at 30 slots and are using 19 of them on 5/5/5/3 and a power plant plus whatever is needed to have the pop to train soldiers.

My suggestion would be instead of troop damage ties to city count, would be to tie improvement destruction to the infra improvement capacity. I think this would be a more balanced way to avoid massive down declares or at least make them more costly to the whales (sacrifice econ improvements in order to stay at full mil/have limited mil due to improvement losses). 

This could be implemented as a 100% guarantee of improvement destruction plus the normal 10/15% from the type of attack if you have a certain percent more improvements than slots (50%, 100%, idk what numbers would actually have the desired effect) OR a certain number above your infra capacity (i.e. normal odds if you have 30/20 or 20/10 or 40/30 but 100% chance if you have 31/20 or 60/20). There a lot of levers that could be pulled, including the number of improvements destroyed per attack. You could have a sharp cutoff for the increased odds at a percent or flat number in excess of infra, you could change the 100% guarantee to a 75% chance, heck you could chain collapses so that every time the attack rolls and successfully destroys an improvement it gets to roll again. I would recommend that any improvement destruction increase only occur above say 20 improvements, so that builds can still exist.

I think this would also be a good way to encourage different strategies, such as tying the improved odds to the "Tactician" policy, and give wars more goals than just "kill planes."

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It baffles me how many people are suddenly once seeing a new proposal that doesn't reduce player agency going back to "yeah make a hard cap". 

In my opinion hard caps suck, player agency is great. Giving people more choices (even if those come at a "price" as what is happening here) should be encouraged. If it was my magic fantasy dreamland world, a city 40 should be able to declare on a city one. Sadly enough that's really not balanced (and nearly impossible to balance with the current mechanics; as the cost would have to be one which isn't decided by militairy but economics, whole diffrent story though.)

This change gives a slight nerf to bigger players, and alliances with higher tiers (Varying from Grumpy, to even for example Rose [compared to for example the immortals]). But it still gives the advantage to the bigger players as it should be. Some people are calling this worse than murder, saying how it would eliminate city advantage, and that my friends is simply not true.

Ps: to the one guy who said NPO would be happy with this change: unironically worst argument i've ever seen lmfao. I quite frankly don't care what an alliance that deleted 75455 years ago, and will never return would think. Arguably they would also not really gain any benefit from this change if they would still exist because theyd be tiered well in the 30s by now.

 

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I'm missing a lot of infra, but am close to 100% military. Right now, at C36 and with a score of 6,438.07, I can hit a C22 with a score of 5,044.50, who is also close to 100% military. I'm 60% stronger, because that's how many cities I have in relation to him (and thus, how much more military I can bring to the table), but I only have 20% more score. 

There's a disconnect mechanically between military power and how score is calculated. Maybe we should look at changing how score is calculated. 

The basic formula right now of downdeclaring 25% below seems fair to me, especially because whales can be attacked by 75% up. I do not think that it's fair that I can hit a C22 while I'm full military at C36. I think score formulas need to be altered in some fashion. 

8 hours ago, Keegoz said:

I mean HoF is legit doing it a lot recently.

2 hours ago, Zei-Sakura Alsainn said:

This is specifically talking about HoF in particular

because HoF exists

the actual problem, of milled whales hitting mid tier, is HoF.

 

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7 minutes ago, Thalmor said:

I'm missing a lot of infra, but am close to 100% military. Right now, at C36 and with a score of 6,438.07, I can hit a C22 with a score of 5,044.50, who is also close to 100% military. I'm 60% stronger, because that's how many cities I have in relation to him (and thus, how much more military I can bring to the table), but I only have 20% more score. 

There's a disconnect mechanically between military power and how score is calculated. Maybe we should look at changing how score is calculated. 

The basic formula right now of downdeclaring 25% below seems fair to me, especially because whales can be attacked by 75% up. I do not think that it's fair that I can hit a C22 while I'm full military at C36. I think score formulas need to be altered in some fashion. 

 

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I agree 100% here. Last conflict I down declared on a c20 (11 city difference) and a c19 being c31. One double buy later and they couldn't compete till I got hit by a c40... Military should weight in more than city and infra score wise imo.

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35 minutes ago, Jeric said:

Military should weight in more than city and infra score wise imo.

Upping mil score probably wouldn't fix everything because double buys are a thing. Going from 3000 score to 6000 score once you double buy doesn't change who you can hit from zero. It would actually let you hit lower city counts from 0 mil if they have units. It would solve fully milled down decs, but amplifies the problem where winning whales boost their score out of range.

46 minutes ago, Thalmor said:

There's a disconnect mechanically between military power and how score is calculated. Maybe we should look at changing how score is calculated. 

IMO, this disconnect has something to do with infra not being representative of fighting capacity yet still boosting score. Improvements however, are much more correlated with damage dealing ability. Perhaps reworking score from infra to score from improvements could help. It still correlates with infrastructure, but better represents the war readiness of a nation. Weighting military ones higher than civilian would also be an interesting option.

p.s. See my above post for my thoughts on redoing improvement destruction

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12 hours ago, Lord Tyrion said:

If the main thing we're trying to prevent is massive downdeclares, then just put in a safety guard for that only.  Make it so beyond score range, you can only downdeclare on a nation with X% less than your current city count.  Done.

But this modification of kills is crazy.  Let's say a C30 is in wars with a bunch of people and down to 500 planes, then gets declared on by a c25 who has way more planes AND gets a 15% modifier on top of that advantage.   Why?  How ridiculously punitive.  

I'm not very well versed on the military mechanics (I think) But either way, I dont know why this wouldn't be the outright solution. If the problem is huge down-declares make down-declares smaller. If that is what you are saying, (E:) just if the problem is down-declares, I wont be debating if thats the actual problem.

 

Edit: After reading a bit war I see that alot of people (mostly high mid tier- whales) seem to oppose this/their power is getting nerfed despite putting more work in. (yes?) 

Edited by TTTTTas
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2 hours ago, tojoky said:

IMO, this disconnect has something to do with infra not being representative of fighting capacity yet still boosting score. Improvements however, are much more correlated with damage dealing ability. Perhaps reworking score from infra to score from improvements could help. It still correlates with infrastructure, but better represents the war readiness of a nation. Weighting military ones higher than civilian would also be an interesting option.

I think this is an interesting idea, i'll see if we can do something with it.

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Didn’t you just change city scores like a month ago to make downdeclares easier???

There are lots of good/better ideas here like giving scores to improvements; would recommend going back to the drawing board on this.

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14 hours ago, Prefontaine said:

The modifier only goes one way, so it's almost like it's at 25% already, the attacker gets the buff/debuff not the defending party. Lets say we use the C20 v C15 example, the 20 attacking the 15.

It's still too significant for this change to be accepted by the player base. You'd likely be better off watering down changes, even if you don't personally agree, just so that things can be implemented rather than repeating the same cycle of suggestion -> player mass downvotes -> nothing happens. It's easier to adjust mechanics at a later date based on feedback when everyone is more aware of how it affects wars. 

14 hours ago, Denison said:

c40 person has around 20 projects

Yeah, I had to get the score to fit though :P. Just trying to show how it was theoretically possible. I dont think i've seen it much. You could bump the infra above 2.5k or have the c40 part of a rebuy lower i guess. 

 

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2 hours ago, Borg said:

It's still too significant for this change to be accepted by the player base. You'd likely be better off watering down changes, even if you don't personally agree, just so that things can be implemented rather than repeating the same cycle of suggestion -> player mass downvotes -> nothing happens. It's easier to adjust mechanics at a later date based on feedback when everyone is more aware of how it affects wars. 

Yeah, I had to get the score to fit though :P. Just trying to show how it was theoretically possible. I dont think i've seen it much. You could bump the infra above 2.5k or have the c40 part of a rebuy lower i guess. 

 

The problem is that a C40 vs C30 would get a 12.5% reduction to kill rates against the C30, with their unit and rebuy advantage that's not going to turn the tide of the war, just slow the death rate of the C30 so that there may be time to find backup. Watering down to 5% or something of that effect has no real impact. 

To the second point, the current score rework discussion has a logarithmic growth curve capping out at 2500 infra. Sort of like how missiles/nukes stop providing score at some point. The idea is a 2:1:1 ratio of Mil : City : infra in terms of score.

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I support this change, the higher city nation will still have a massive advantage competitively. A massive down declare will still cause the lower city nations military to disappear, all it will do is lessen the effects of the damage. Perhaps it will discourage war stat padding as well.

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the general playerbase has alrdy ruined shiz by spam wanting mil score to be reduced and a bunch of other stuff coz they all are self serving dipsh*ts that don't know what they want/is good for the game as a whole @Prefontainedo whatever u want fam, no matter what u do sm1 will cry about it

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-SAXON-

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Where was this when @Mayor recently did a 9 city downdeclare on me?? 😠

 

But in all seriousness, I'm on the fence about this. Severe downdeclares can be problematic, but I'm frankly unsure what an adequate solution would be.

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17 hours ago, Zei-Sakura Alsainn said:

KingGhostSRD for the record is talking about a militarized c40 hitting a c20.

 

Your counterargument is kinda worthless when you don't understand what he's talking about. He's not talking about me being zeroed and hitting c14s with 800 infra, nor is he talking about you being zeroed and hitting a c21 at normal peace time setup or even a militarized nation less than half your size.

I'm assuming by the rest of your statement that you had max mil”

Since I literally flat out typed it I think I understood.

As for your claim that people were vming out of boredom etc. all I have to say to that is literally get good. Also isn’t it a bit contradictory that your next statement is that 100 score cities were the problem but you still know people that are “quitting out of boredom” when we currently have 75 score cities? I think 75 is too low and 100 is too high so 80-90 can be a good testing point.

This is anecdotal but I was basically inactive for like, the first 18 days of the war and still did like 3b~ dmg and 1b net so I know it’s complete BS that people can’t do anything, yes the update time sucked for that war but that shouldn’t be in the discussion as balancing the game off lag shouldn’t be a thing.

Yes it does affect gameplay and that sucks but that’s more of an Alex plz get better servers than a discussion meant for mechanical changes.

My suggestion weighing score more heavily towards a nations actual military buy power since infra really doesn’t represent that while not being as overbearing as 100 city score. This should help with down deccing since I do believe we can reach to far currently as well as help losers guerilla nuke better reaching the high infra targets since normally they sit at 9k+ NS and I can never reach them when I guerilla

 

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