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TJ vs IQ: who won?


John Smith
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Guest Curufinwe
3 minutes ago, Pheonix said:

Keelan also thought BK was a democracy and he was running for emperor and was going to win... Can't base a University off of a single member :P

You mean we're not a democracy?

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This is the war timeline

|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|-------------------------|

                                                                                                      Jest won this                                                                                             IQ won this

Looks like a culture victory

 

But if I was an IQ player I would point out that the most important thing is the % of damage and not the total damage, those 19B are the 47% (random number) of the total value of Jest while the 43B are only the 18% (another random number) of the total value of IQ

So now give me the real total value of IQ and Jest so I can see if I'm right

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Christ, ya'll are no fun. Quit circlejerking over pixel stats and real world history (seriously though, what was that lmao) and let IQ and TJ say they won. You're not changing anyone's mind, and if everyone thinks their side won, then everyone's happy. That's what we like right, everyone having a good time in this game? Besides, it's not like IQ have any other joy to liven their lives, clearly. ;)

But credit where it's due, those are some very spicy memes, props for that. :D

 

Edit: Does anyone have any stats for the Arrgh-TKR shindig by any chance? Wouldn't mind seeing those.

Edited by TheNG
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5 minutes ago, TheNG said:

Christ, ya'll are no fun. Quit circlejerking over pixel stats and real world history (seriously though, what was that lmao) and let IQ and TJ say they won. You're not changing anyone's mind, and if everyone thinks their side won, then everyone's happy. That's what we like right, everyone having a good time in this game?

But credit where it's due, those are some very spicy memes, props for that. :D

 

Edit: Does anyone have any stats for the Arrgh-TKR shindig by any chance? Wouldn't mind seeing those.

I’d much rather admit my defeats so I can learn from them. Y’all aren’t doing yourself any favours by pretending you won. You learn from your mistakes but maybe that is IQ’s issue, you don’t take responsibility for your mistakes and therefore don’t strive to fix them. 

Reminding me of the term from last war “The alliances still at war on both sides have fought well. Nothing about the conflict or its conclusion can or should be construed as humiliating or degrading in any way to the alliances of The Inquisition.” 

Like just take a step back and note your own failures so you can move forward and fix them. You’ll have no motivation to get better if you can’t accept the fact that there is a problem. 

Back in GPA, the first step to getting better was realizing just how bad and shit we were, this motivated us to strive to get better. If we had pretended we weren’t as bad, we wouldn’t have done anything to fix our issues.

 

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22 minutes ago, Justin076 said:

I’d much rather admit my defeats so I can learn from them. Y’all aren’t doing yourself any favours by pretending you won. You learn from your mistakes but maybe that is IQ’s issue, you don’t take responsibility for your mistakes and therefore don’t strive to fix them. 

Reminding me of the term from last war “The alliances still at war on both sides have fought well. Nothing about the conflict or its conclusion can or should be construed as humiliating or degrading in any way to the alliances of The Inquisition.” 

Like just take a step back and note your own failures so you can move forward and fix them. You’ll have no motivation to get better if you can’t accept the fact that there is a problem. 

Back in GPA, the first step to getting better was realizing just how bad and shit we were, this motivated us to strive to get better. If we had pretended we weren’t as bad, we wouldn’t have done anything to fix our issues.

 

Well, speaking of no fun....

In my humble opinion, your mistake Justin is equating in-game mistakes and "failures" with "losing". You can always to examine your performance and honestly come to the conclusion that improvement is necessary. That can be done whether you proclaim that you won a war on the OWF or whether you try to excuse a battlefield defeat. Examples of both (and everything in between) abound, and they can always be used to ponder improvement, no other motivation required. That it doesn't always happen is another story entirely. I'll disregard your equating me with all of IQ, because it has little bearing on this, and you clearly believe IQ has squandered potential opportunities to sit down and try to improve. That's entirely fair, you're entitled to your opinion, and I bet if you asked an IQ leader they'd have a different answer. Such is the way of things.

Regardless, I think you missed the point of my original post. Frankly, I don't particularly care who really "won" the last war, that's not important in the big scheme of things, and as I said it doesn't hurt anything to let IQ and TJ claim they won to give their members a little boost. I had my fun during the war, and took my own lessons away from it. I hope my TJ opponents did the same, and I believe most of them did, so maybe in the end everyone won, eh?

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1 hour ago, TheNG said:

Edit: Does anyone have any stats for the Arrgh-TKR shindig by any chance? Wouldn't mind seeing those.

Stats with 8 wars still ongoing:

 

Resources loot gained by TKR - 77,932,542

Money loot gained by TKR - 131,702,389

 

Resources loot gained by Arrgh - 118,869,429 (88,825,287 of these from RagnarBuliwyf getting beiged)

Money loot gained by Arrgh - 107,171,972 (68,786,226 of these from RagnarBuliwyf getting beiged)

 

Soldiers killed:

TKR - 3,836,930

Arrgh - 1,269,965

 

Tanks Destroyed:

TKR - 39,721

Arrgh - 29,213

 

Aircrafts destroyed:

TKR - 6,127

Arrgh - 3,342

 

Ships destroyed:

TKR - 652

Arrgh - 291

 

Infra destroyed:

TKR - 153,336 (1,280 with missiles and nukes)*

Arrgh - 35,132 (22,020 with missiles and nukes)*

*calculated by giving an average of 320 infra for missiles and 1700 infra for nukes

 

Total cost of units destroyed (soldiers+tanks+aircrafts+ships):

TKR - 392,744,543

Arrgh - 239,081,282

 

For infra value idk how to do that, I guess is a tie because the two nukes on the 3000 infra cities of Azaghul are already worth like half of Arrgh :D

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Hi John. Nice to see that you've joined the ebil anti-IQ OWF circlejerk as well. Enjoy the kool-aid. :P 

3 hours ago, John Smith said:

Essentially, BK received 8 billion in damages and only dealt 4.5 billion. You didn't gain anything from the war. Take the L given to you by our Lord and savior Buorhann the cultural hippopotamus and be on your merry way.

The stats currently displayed on Ripper's spreadsheet make some questionable assumptions about infra cost. I think he's updating the damage for individual nations, but the alliance performance sheet seems the same. Considering that the bulk of the difference in damage dealt and received for BK is in infrastructure, assuming constant infra costs for all belligerents heavily skews the perception of the war. Also, when have we decided the victors on damage stats alone?

BTW, the in-game stat tracker gives  $2.8 billion for infra destroyed and $2.4 billion for infra lost for BK (2/6 - 2/23) if Sheepy can be trusted.

3 hours ago, John Smith said:

There has been no evidence from IQ arguing that these statements are false. As can be seen in the spreadsheet, the band of 28 members known as Terminal Jest has dealt nearly $43B in damages, while the entire IQ bloc, consisting of more than 450 members (of which 174 members were involved in the conflict), has dealt a little over $19B in damages. If your argument is "TJ disbanded, therefore they lost", then I'll remind you that WW2 was won by the allies, but they both pose very different situations. In the second world war, the Axis powers were defeated and rendered incapable of causing any more damage, as well as a division of Germany among the allies (The era of partition). In the TJ vs IQ war, TJ was neither defeated nor rendered incapable of causing further damage. They can strike again whenever they like and there is nothing stopping them. If you are so confident that IQ won the war, I welcome you to explain why.

If you want to use the WWII comparison, TJest was certainly made incapable of causing damage through conventional warfare, hence why they collapsed. What is that but a military victory? If you can look past the cultural victory memes for a moment, there is nothing contradictory in the idea that TJest outperformed and outdamaged IQ, yet lost.  (Ask the Germans about their K:D ratio on the eastern front) Nobody is denying that IQ underperformed both as the hegemony it is seen as and in general. IQ made mistakes, yes. They could have taken efforts to minimize money lost to looting and have been better at denying TJest nations the opportunity to rebuild. However, this was not an equal war, as everyone seems eager to reiterate. Good performance does not equate to victory and victory does not equate to good performance. A point could be made to argue that IQ not pursuing individual TJest nations after the alliance's disbandment ended the war in a de-facto white peace, but the fact that TJest disbanded remains. If you consider the war to be between IQ and Partisan's merry band of whales, TJest's disbandment is of little significance. Everyone went their merry way and nobody tried to stop them. However, if you see TJest as a political entity, it is undeniable that they lost the war. In the end what does it really matter? TJest didn't attack IQ to win and both sides left equally satisfied.

Take your cultural victory and take your white peace, but drop the "damage ratios decide victory" narrative.

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You guys are thinking way too hard about that conflict.

IQ should win out in a conventional war against TJest.  Just the huge disparity of members alone should do it.  There's literally no way for TJest to "win".

If anything, it was just a organized raid, at which TJest succeeded in.

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8 hours ago, Them said:

The stats currently displayed on Ripper's spreadsheet make some questionable assumptions about infra cost. I think he's updating the damage for individual nations, but the alliance performance sheet seems the same. Considering that the bulk of the difference in damage dealt and received for BK is in infrastructure, assuming constant infra costs for all belligerents heavily skews the perception of the war. Also, when have we decided the victors on damage stats alone?

I stated at my last update that the current infra damages are exactly what each nation lost. No assumptions.

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