5/3/2015 - Issues with Generated Money

[Ryu[Old Account]]

Well, I'm happy. The nice thing I liked about P&W is that it was still pleasant in terms of being naive. When you end up facing serious sociopaths, as most games do in the long-term, you'll understand.

 

Anyways, age looks fondly upon youth's lack of experience, and today I'm gladly Cassandra.

Are you that Pol Pot guy who was so desperate he had to resort to cheating? And give some names... Who's a sociopath?

[Lu Xun]

Let me put this another way. Pol Pot's problem, aside from the fact that he never did anything against the TOS or game rules, is that he got caught. Imagine if he hadn't gotten caught. Imagine if he used the exploit subtly, at 15% of normal income. That would not have been immediately obvious, and you would not have been able to track it until way too late. Because it took less than a week for him to get discovered, it was easy to flush the illicit money out of the game, but let's say no one catches on until 6 months in.

 

Now you have a problem. If he's doing it himself, you can ban him, but what if he ends up with an appreciable alliance? What if that alliance ends up close to the center of the treaty web, and has good PR? Then, practically, it's going to be a shitstorm of he-said she-said, especially if the entire alliance is contaminated and is ban-worthy. Lying is the easiest action a player can take in a social game, just ask Kastor.

 

If you're thinking long-term, you need a framework to control these sorts of events. Any real social strategy game will ultimately attract sociopaths, and by virtue of their sociopathy they will become successful in game. But that's a story for later, that I'll tell, when it happens.

[Ayayay]

Let me put this another way. Pol Pot's problem, aside from the fact that he never did anything against the TOS or game rules, is that he got caught. Imagine if he hadn't gotten caught. Imagine if he used the exploit subtly, at 15% of normal income. That would not have been immediately obvious, and you would not have been able to track it until way too late. Because it took less than a week for him to get discovered, it was easy to flush the illicit money out of the game, but let's say no one catches on until 6 months in.

 

Now you have a problem. If he's doing it himself, you can ban him, but what if he ends up with an appreciable alliance? What if that alliance ends up close to the center of the treaty web, and has good PR? Then, practically, it's going to be a shitstorm of he-said she-said, especially if the entire alliance is contaminated and is ban-worthy. Lying is the easiest action a player can take in a social game, just ask Kastor.

 

If you're thinking long-term, you need a framework to control these sorts of events. Any real social strategy game will ultimately attract sociopaths, and by virtue of their sociopathy they will become successful in game. But that's a story for later, that I'll tell, when it happens.

You're !@#$ing crazy and retarded

[Lu Xun]

That's how I know I'm right. This is pretty enjoyable, not being believed when I know I'm right. I am not attacking any of your nations, I'm not trolling anyone, I'm not trying to offend at all. I am merely saying the truth, a truth you don't like to hear, and you are attacking me for it. It's fun, though.

[Ayayay]

That's how I know I'm right. This is pretty enjoyable, not being believed when I know I'm right. I am not attacking any of your nations, I'm not trolling anyone, I'm not trying to offend at all. I am merely saying the truth, a truth you don't like to hear, and you are attacking me for it. It's fun, though.

Nope, you're just insane. Attacking people is what I do anyways, if you don't like it then leave.

[Lu Xun]

To a certain set of "friends" with a certain set of interests, you have my blessing, not that you'd want it. Enjoy the fresh meat.

[Ryu[Old Account]]

Ohhh so you were actually helping the game by using that exploit to the max so you can get caught... Thanks?

[Lu Xun]

Amuse me, Fox Fire. I think I know who Pol Pot is, although my memory is now fuzzy. A gentleman colleague of mine used to go by the alias Pol Pot when he didn't want people to know who he was. I think it was actually one of LSF's leadership in (That terrible game that is totally irrelevant and I shouldn't be bringing it up anyways), at least around the 2013 2014 era.

 

Funny thing is... well, the speech pattern doesn't match him between the forums and the man I remembered, so it doesn't matter.

 

Let me actually put what I am saying to you guys in another way. Are you guys literally okay with cheating, as long an it doesn't get caught? If you're of that mindset, I have nothing to say to you, I thought you were naifs but here it turns out you're decadents. If you're okay with any kind of cheating / exploit practice as long as it never gets caught, then please pursue your present policy and preferences, because that's what you're literally asking for.

[Aenir]

Guys come on, surely a guy with a 3 day old nation and 0.01 infra knows what's best for the game.  I mean he knew enough to give away his money and resources, right?

[Fox Fire]

That's how I know I'm right. This is pretty enjoyable, not being believed when I know I'm right. I am not attacking any of your nations, I'm not trolling anyone, I'm not trying to offend at all. I am merely saying the truth, a truth you don't like to hear, and you are attacking me for it. It's fun, though.

When everyone you speak to tells you that you're wrong..... That's like.... A sign or something...

 

 

Amuse me, Fox Fire. I think I know who Pol Pot is, although my memory is now fuzzy. A gentleman colleague of mine used to go by the alias Pol Pot when he didn't want people to know who he was. I think it was actually one of LSF's leadership in (That terrible game that is totally irrelevant and I shouldn't be bringing it up anyways), at least around the 2013 2014 era.

 

Funny thing is... well, the speech pattern doesn't match him between the forums and the man I remembered, so it doesn't matter.

 

Let me actually put what I am saying to you guys in another way. Are you guys literally okay with cheating, as long an it doesn't get caught? If you're of that mindset, I have nothing to say to you, I thought you were naifs but here it turns out you're decadents. If you're okay with any kind of cheating / exploit practice as long as it never gets caught, then please pursue your present policy and preferences, because that's what you're literally asking for.

If you can't figure out who Pol Pot is, that's not my problem. Perhaps you ARE Pol Pot, as he's not actually the complete retard he pretended to be on these forums. Also, what in the actual !@#$ are you even talking about anymore?

[Dan77]

Good work Sheepy

[Clarke]

I dunno what Inst is talking about but if the point is that this game is !@#$ed at the moment because of cheaters then that is certainly the case.

I woke up this morning wondering why the !@#$ the trade system was activated again.

And this game will continue to be a shambles until these exploits are found making playing the game atm largely poinltess as this cheating method can happen over an over again.

I have zero confidence in Sheepy being able to solve this as he doesn't understand the banking system yet and it's numerous bugs that occurred over the last year since it was implemented, but hey people can solve some things and not others so there is hope maybe. 

 

Oh an another thing, really? A game breaking bug this far into the "finished" game, really?

This game could be like a mine, people can come digging and possible find new ways to exploit perhaps even a year down the road from now.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Clarke

[Buck Turgidson]

Unpopular though it is, I partly agree with Inst. Cheating IS a part of the game. It is a part of the real-world market as well - ever heard of Enron/Arthur Andersen? Bre-X? Network Associates? Apple? (too soon - wait about 2 years for that last one). In RL, whistle-blowers can be rewarded, partly by a dose of 'not going to jail', and also by incentive. 

 

I develop complex web-based business simulations as part of my sales training work (makes P&W look like child's play). I harness exploiters by fining for bad behavior, and rewarding for whistle-blowing - gamification. So, the player who thinks that xe is clever when finding an exploit is surely not as clever as the one who discovers them using it.

 

Exploiters have a place to play in making the game stronger, and instead of driving them underground, they should be integrated into the community. This does not obviate the need to rollback, nor to punish, but give them a choice between being themselves but legal, and being a total criminal - this is why we pay politicians, for example (lol). P&W is already a diverse community, with many cultures and values represented - inclusion makes things more interesting for all, and the game becomes stronger as exploits are brought to the surface.

 

People like Inst, Ford, and Pol Pot (there you go Inst, your name is now lumped with them) get a huge kick out of finding an exploit. Maybe it's because they are so clever. Or maybe they have more time in front of a computer, and are fresh out of tissues. Harness them. If you rely on the goodwill and pure heart of your fellow player, you will inevitably find yourself under the thumb of the one who has neither.

 

That said, a good regression analysis to uncover an exploit requires honest participants who follow the rules. In time, the rules will be aligned with the actual possibilities, the game will be mature, and new development can happen.

 

If a player comes forward with an exploit, xe should be rewarded. If xe refuses to tell, ban. Sheepy made the right call across the board here, but we need a safe place for exploiters.

 

BTW I have no idea how this exploit worked, but if someone explained it to be I would be able to tell you if I have benefitted from it. ie step 1, 2, 3. from reading this thread, I don't think so, but since I don't know the facts, I can't say for sure. None of the holier than thou rulebook prophets even asked this question, so I feel like I am in den of thieves...

Edited May 4, 2015 by Buck Turgidson

[Clarke]

The model you use for that community would never translate over to a nation simulation community, this game is far too chaotic like the real world. People know that exploiting something is the best way to get rich.

[Buck Turgidson]

Well, that depends on the rewards, and the true counterweight to exploiters is to have a cadre of your own.

 

There are definitely differences, but I would not be so quick to say 'never'. The fundamental similarity is in the fact that this game is still in the process of being developed and refined, and is complex. The developer needs every tool at his disposal to uncover exploits, which are basically bugs - a misalignment between the intent and the manifestation of the functionality. The sims I have developed took months to develop, and were rolled out to over 1000 people each - much more complex in functionality and dynamics, but much smaller in terms of user base (and of course no war because we try not to kill our customers, so why simulate that).. Typically, it takes me until I am 20-25% through the rollout before I have ironed out all the bugs, and that is after rigorous testing - I have even resorted to RL prizes in alpha and beta testing to uncover bugs, because without it, competitive nature in a common market inevitably leads to what you describe above...

 

Segmentation is the key - some people would never exploit out of fear. Others out of honor. Others will do so because they are greedy. Some will do so for bragging rights. Out of these four segments, and there are surely others, the last one can be turned with a reward, and that's all you need. Doesn't even need to be monetary - peer recognition works great, too.

 

BTW lol:

 

the best bet would be to just lock alliance banks down until you find glitch. replace the php code so they can't be accessed

 

if you cant. recode banks from bottom up as you have choice between recoding something or the entire game being !@#$ed up potentionally

 

seriously you need to test these things, this game was supposed to be finished, but it still have awful bugs.

 

Edited May 4, 2015 by Buck Turgidson

[Tim Armstrong]

Thank you, Sheepy. <3

 

Regarding cheating, it comes down to one's strength of character. Will a player justify his actions when faced with opportunities to get ahead even though they are outside of the creator's lines of fair play to advance his position? We can debate and try to draw lines about what is or is not cheating but at the end of the day you either act in good faith and in the spirit of the rules or you don't.

[Buck Turgidson]

Dude, your horse is really big. Is that a clydesdale? Could you dismount for a moment so I can hear you? 

 

Most people act in good faith, but the problem is getting them to trust that 100% of players will. Any practical suggestions?

[Avruch]

Then don't.  I am telling you from experience how it works and how it doesn't work. I have met cheaters who have managed to get away with cheating for years, retiring without ever getting caught. I have met ban evaders who have operated multis and gotten away with both cheating and ban evading up to retirement, and I know people who are cheating and still getting away with it. I have thought long and hard on what works and what does not. If you don't want to listen, well, it's your game, actually, no, it's Sheepy's, and he can do whatever he wants.

 

Also, foxfire, your current nation dates to 2013 in (That terrible game that is totally irrelevant and I shouldn&#39;t be bringing it up anyways). Since I've been here forever and have stats from 2011, alongside Samus' lyricalz, care to give me your old account name?

Sheepy's game, yes. But you were arguing with and trying to convince a lot of people not named Sheepy. Incidentally, many of those people (me included) have also been gaming for a long time, and dealing with cheaters and banned players. You may have "thought long and hard", but your conclusion that we should effectively condone abuse and even incentivize people to abuse exploits is nonsense. The idea that taking advantage of game-breaking exploits is just "playing the game as it was made" is equally bullshit. Luckily, few game admins share your opinion. I guess they all just lack your experience as a cheater / ban evader.

[Buck Turgidson]

If you make a law, you need to enforce it. Otherwise, releal or adjust the law. Game rules in a coded game are the laws.

 

Ever played a board game and argued the rules with people? A board game's rules can be very subjective, and that leads to a lot of stress sometimes. 

 

In a web-based game, the rules are the code. Nowhere in the game rules does is explicitly say that you can raid, or trade 100 food for 1$, but if the functionality allows it, and you don't want people to be able to do so, then the code is at fault, not the player. That said, in a community like this, players should come forward. I would prefer to pay them for doing so, because it is more reliable.

 

Inst's point is that he likes to play cops and robbers. You don't. So, don't. (I don't either, but others do, and that's OK with me).

 

Quit picking on the wayward slowcoach and focus on staying ahead of the next similar issue. Are we not still in beta?

[Stagger Lee]

I seriously think that damming and diversion is the best solution; create a program that allows players to be compensated for discovering game breaking bugs, then make non-reports punishable by reduction (reduction to nation account), suspension, deletion, and banning, depending on severity. People who discover major exploits can benefit from doing so by mailing the PnW bugs department, upon which a ruling can be made on whether or not it's considered degenerate, and if it's banned, the person who discovered the bug will be compensated in credits.

This is the right answer.

 

If another exploit happens in the future providing incentives to keep people in the game and keep rollbacks from happening is preferable to banning and resetting the game by potentially days. Although the rollback isn't happening this time, what happens when an exploit is further reaching and can be impossible to fix without a reset?

Edited May 4, 2015 by Stagger Lee

[Alex]

I dunno what Inst is talking about but if the point is that this game is !@#$ed at the moment because of cheaters then that is certainly the case.

I woke up this morning wondering why the !@#$ the trade system was activated again.

And this game will continue to be a shambles until these exploits are found making playing the game atm largely poinltess as this cheating method can happen over an over again.

I have zero confidence in Sheepy being able to solve this as he doesn't understand the banking system yet and it's numerous bugs that occurred over the last year since it was implemented, but hey people can solve some things and not others so there is hope maybe. 

 

Oh an another thing, really? A game breaking bug this far into the "finished" game, really?

This game could be like a mine, people can come digging and possible find new ways to exploit perhaps even a year down the road from now.

 

When's the last alliance bank bug you've seen? It's been almost a month. Bugs like this are bound to happen, and can happen in any game. AAA title games are not perfect when they're released, even with millions of dollars and huge teams of developers at their disposal. I'm not perfect, the game isn't perfect, but it works, and as we found out in these past few days, something like this is only a minor setback. It cannot stop the progress forward, and the game will continue to grow in content, quality, and membership.

 

Unpopular though it is, I partly agree with Inst. Cheating IS a part of the game. It is a part of the real-world market as well - ever heard of Enron/Arthur Andersen? Bre-X? Network Associates? Apple? (too soon - wait about 2 years for that last one). In RL, whistle-blowers can be rewarded, partly by a dose of 'not going to jail', and also by incentive. 

 

I develop complex web-based business simulations as part of my sales training work (makes P&W look like child's play). I harness exploiters by fining for bad behavior, and rewarding for whistle-blowing - gamification. So, the player who thinks that xe is clever when finding an exploit is surely not as clever as the one who discovers them using it.

 

Exploiters have a place to play in making the game stronger, and instead of driving them underground, they should be integrated into the community. This does not obviate the need to rollback, nor to punish, but give them a choice between being themselves but legal, and being a total criminal - this is why we pay politicians, for example (lol). P&W is already a diverse community, with many cultures and values represented - inclusion makes things more interesting for all, and the game becomes stronger as exploits are brought to the surface.

 

People like Inst, Ford, and Pol Pot (there you go Inst, your name is now lumped with them) get a huge kick out of finding an exploit. Maybe it's because they are so clever. Or maybe they have more time in front of a computer, and are fresh out of tissues. Harness them. If you rely on the goodwill and pure heart of your fellow player, you will inevitably find yourself under the thumb of the one who has neither.

 

That said, a good regression analysis to uncover an exploit requires honest participants who follow the rules. In time, the rules will be aligned with the actual possibilities, the game will be mature, and new development can happen.

 

If a player comes forward with an exploit, xe should be rewarded. If xe refuses to tell, ban. Sheepy made the right call across the board here, but we need a safe place for exploiters.

 

BTW I have no idea how this exploit worked, but if someone explained it to be I would be able to tell you if I have benefitted from it. ie step 1, 2, 3. from reading this thread, I don't think so, but since I don't know the facts, I can't say for sure. None of the holier than thou rulebook prophets even asked this question, so I feel like I am in den of thieves...

 

I've never punished anyone for finding an exploit, only for abusing one. I'm happy when people find and report bugs, and while there isn't a reward, per-say, I think some folk enjoy the recognition they get posting in the Tech Support subforum, even when it's something as simple as a typo.

[Buck Turgidson]

Sheepy, can you please explain how this exploit worked? ie what did Ford and Pol Pot do step by step?

[Sweeeeet Ronny D]

ford didnt actually do anything wrong game wise, besides put up a lopsided trade that was accepted. 

 

he was just dumb enough to spend the 1.5 billion he received from the trade he put up.

[Buck Turgidson]

Why was the trade accepted? 

 

I totally don't get it, so please t y p e  s l o w l y. . .lol

[SoS]

there was a (simple) way to accept a sell offer, without actually spending any money.