Proposed Beige Change

[Prefontaine]

Before I get into the changes, lets just briefly discuss what function beige is supposed to be, and what it is in the current meta. Currently beige is something you want to avoid letting your opponents get in a global war. It results in what should be the victors moving the war to expiration to cycle the defeated party. What beige should be is a means for rebuilding after being defeated in a war. The current plan pulls from previous concepts that were well liked at the time and has a focus on simplicity, which was also requested at the time.

 

1. All wars end in beige. If the war would expire, the nation with the most resistance win. If the resistance is tied, the win goes to the defending nation.
2. If no attacks happen by either party in 20 turns, the war ends.
3. Beige timers do not begin reducing until all defensive wars have ended.
4. If a nation leaves beige early, their units are 10% less effective in offensive wars for 12 turns.
5. If a nation wins a war, that nation can produce an additional 25% units for the remainder of that day. This number stacks but is always calculated off of the base 100% unit production levels.

 

Points 4 and 5 stem from wanting to allow offensive parties some edge if the win the first round of wars while the defeated side is regrouping. To clarify point 4, if I was going to send an attack that would kill 10,000 soldiers, it only kills 9,000 instead. This 10% reduction will not effect victory (IT, Moderate, Pyrrhic) rolls, just the damage done only in offensively declared wars. To clarify point 5, if I can produce 10,000 soldiers in a day and I win a war, I can now produce 12,500 for the remainder of that day. If I've already built 10,000 I can now build an additional 2,500. If I win a second war that same day it only increases to 15,000, not 25% of 12,500. This benefit only lasts for the remainder of that day. If you win a war 2 minutes before day change, this benefits window is only 2 minutes.

 

Some sitting/cycling will occur when nations on losing sides declare offensive wars in the opening wars. If I'm declared on 3x and then go offensive in 2 wars, if my 3 defensive wars end quickly my offensive opponents could wait to reduce the beige timers. However if I'm done fighting back in that round the beige window will allow me to not be blockaded, resupply and rebuild to out swinging. 

 

This can be fixed by making it so beige doesn't start reducing until after ALL wars are expired. As a nation needs to not be in beige to declare wars. This route allows for nations to artificially lengthen beige timers though by declaring a war right before they're defeated. 

Edited March 16, 2022 by Prefontaine

[MinesomeMC]

So no more beige cycling? 

[Sweeeeet Ronny D]

why punish people for coming out of beige early?

[Zevari]

15 minutes ago, Prefontaine said:

1. All wars end in beige. If the war would expire, the nation with the most resistance win. If the resistance is tied, the win goes to the defending nation.
2. If no attacks happen by either party in 20 turns, the war ends.
3. Beige timers do not begin reducing until all defensive wars have ended.
4. If a nation leaves beige early, their units are 10% less effective in offensive wars for 12 turns.
5. If a nation wins a war, that nation can produce an additional 25% units for the remainder of that day. This number stacks but is always calculated off of the base 100% unit production levels.

My only suggestion to add ontop of this would be a 'retreat' mechanic.

Basically after someone on the offensive defeats their target and puts them into beige, the defender who just got beiged will be automatically forced to offer all other defensive wars peace. So for example if you have 3 people on a counter, if one beiges the other two can instantly peace out without the pirates concession. However the person they were countering for would not get this peace offer since they were not the ones on the offensive.

My idea for this is to allow offensive wars some ability to maneuver around this proposed idea while not undermining the general concept of this beige mechanic.

[Lysander]

27 minutes ago, Prefontaine said:

Currently beige is something you want to avoid letting your opponents get in a global war. It results in what should be the victors moving the war to expiration to cycle the defeated party. What beige should be is a means for rebuilding after being defeated in a war.

I don’t think the two are mutually exclusive. Beige is a means for rebuilding after defeat, which is why victors in a Global War prefer to let the wars expire.

 

There are several things about this I think many people will dislike, but the main one has to be what SRD said - punishing nations for coming out of beige early doesn’t seem like a good idea. For example, if I’m in a GW, and I have an offensive and three defensives, and all beige me, it’s possible I rebuild before those eight days of beige are up, but I’d be punished for leaving early even though the beige has served its purpose.

 

Also, idk if allowing that 25% to stack would be the best idea; the more wars a nation wins, the faster they can rebuild military to fight off other wars. Imagine an initial blitz goes in favor of the attackers in terms of wars won - they’ll be able to rebuild military faster during the war than their opponents and hammer down even harder.

[Miller]

28 minutes ago, Prefontaine said:

If a nation leaves beige early, their units are 10% less effective in offensive wars for 12 turns.

No. If anything leaving beige early should give the boost you mentioned for winning a war. Reward aggressiveness. 

[Indger]

I support none of these. I like the current things how they are.

Edited March 15, 2022 by Indger

[MinesomeMC]

1 minute ago, Indger said:

I support none of these. I like the current things how they are.

Nah they definitely need change, wars shouldn't be determined by the initial blitz 

[Uranato]

My thoughts:

1. I like the idea of giving the losing side a concrete chance to regroup, but I feel the amount it takes away from strategy is not worth the 'fairness' gained. Beige discipline, and the decision of letting a high loot target expire or to beige it is an important part of warfare, in my opinion.

2. See 1; though to a less extent, this also somewhat discourages beige cycling (although I haven't run the numbers and am not entirely sure - this could potentially bring more strategy to the game by making the cyclers calculate how to properly beige cycle each of the targets they're sitting on).

3. Again, see 1. Getting beige cycled through your offensive slots is not as common as getting beige cycled through your defensive slots.

4. This discourages getting out of beige, which is again another limitation to decision-making which I'm not sure is worth the gain (not entirely sure about the gain either).

5. This is actually something I somewhat like. This has the potential to open up another decision. As of now, if you're getting attacked continuously, it's best to have some enemies beige you to get breathing room. But if you get extra rebut by beiging your defensive slots, then maybe that could be a worthwhile consideration?

Upvoted because of effort and because I agree with some points. I skimmed through this very quickly, so probably have misunderstood or missed a few points.

[Prefontaine]

2 minutes ago, Indger said:

I support none of these. I like the current things how they are.

Wars that can last over a month being decided in the first day where the winning side doesn't win the physical wars and has to sit there doing nothing is not a good system, nor is it fun. 

[NightKnight]

3 minutes ago, Miller said:

No. If anything leaving beige early should give the boost you mentioned for winning a war. Reward aggressiveness. 

I agree with this, I think the biggest issue is leaving beige early. If we are talking about the purpose of beige being rebuild, I am not sure why this would be helpful if a nation rebuilds and wants to get back into the fight.

4 minutes ago, Indger said:

I support none of these.

4 minutes ago, Lysander said:

I don’t think the two are mutually exclusive. Beige is a means for rebuilding after defeat, which is why victors in a Global War prefer to let the wars expire.

 

There are several things about this I think many people will dislike, but the main one has to be what SRD said - punishing nations for coming out of beige early doesn’t seem like a good idea. For example, if I’m in a GW, and I have an offensive and three defensives, and all beige me, it’s possible I rebuild before those eight days of beige are up, but I’d be punished for leaving early even though the beige has served its purpose.

 

Also, idk if allowing that 25% to stack would be the best idea; the more wars a nation wins, the faster they can rebuild military to fight off other wars. Imagine an initial blitz goes in favor of the attackers in terms of wars won - they’ll be able to rebuild military faster during the war than their opponents and hammer down even harder.

I mean beige cycling being dead is not the end of the world in my eyes, and it may actually help globals not be determined pretty much right from the start. As far as leaving beige early, completely agree as mentioned above.

As far as stacking, I also agree as I feel like this could cause issues, but I like the overall idea because it could give a nation a fighting chance if they are losing all 3 def wars for example. They could start a war with someone and win to get a boost.

[Prefontaine]

9 minutes ago, Lysander said:

I don’t think the two are mutually exclusive. Beige is a means for rebuilding after defeat, which is why victors in a Global War prefer to let the wars expire.

 

There are several things about this I think many people will dislike, but the main one has to be what SRD said - punishing nations for coming out of beige early doesn’t seem like a good idea. For example, if I’m in a GW, and I have an offensive and three defensives, and all beige me, it’s possible I rebuild before those eight days of beige are up, but I’d be punished for leaving early even though the beige has served its purpose.

 

Also, idk if allowing that 25% to stack would be the best idea; the more wars a nation wins, the faster they can rebuild military to fight off other wars. Imagine an initial blitz goes in favor of the attackers in terms of wars won - they’ll be able to rebuild military faster during the war than their opponents and hammer down even harder.

One of the strongest resistances made from @Lucianus is that it should not be too easy for nations to come back after the first round and take out the attackers. If he wants to argue his point here on that topic I'll let him. The 10% reduction is something I'm more than happy to remove, but was added with those concerns in mind. 

[His Holy Decagon]

1. I do like the idea of a war expiring after x amount of turns due to inactivity

2. I don’t think rewarding the winners of a war, which could also be from an expired war, with 25% effectiveness or whatever it was, is a good idea. This would affect much more than the initial blitz. It affects counter attacks, raiders, people wanting to just rejoin any war at all

3. Leaving beige early, as others have mentioned, shouldn’t be penalized imo.

(my numbers do not correlate with the OP’s numbers, FYI)

Edited March 15, 2022 by His Holy Decagon

[Lysander]

16 minutes ago, Prefontaine said:

One of the strongest resistances made from @Lucianus is that it should not be too easy for nations to come back after the first round and take out the attackers. If he wants to argue his point here on that topic I'll let him. The 10% reduction is something I'm more than happy to remove, but was added with those concerns in mind. 

If you consider it, though, that 25% stacking boost will help with that. I assume when you say “come back” you’re referring to the defenders getting some boost to roll the attackers - if the defenders have lost their wars, the attackers will have that military purchase boost which theoretically lets them remil faster than the defenders can, meaning they’d be in a better position to counter a second round from the defenders. Would also force the defenders to actually use beige to rebuild, which I think was a concern you listed initially, because if the defenders don’t come out with a stronger military they’ll be helping the enemy rebuild their military even faster with free wins.

[Prefontaine]

Just now, Lysander said:

If you consider it, though, that 25% stacking boost will help with that. I assume when you say “come back” you’re referring to the defenders getting some boost to roll the attackers - if the defenders have lost their wars, the attackers will have that military purchase boost which theoretically lets them remil faster than the defenders can, meaning they’d be in a better position to counter a second round from the defenders. Would also force the defenders to actually use beige to rebuild, which I think was a concern you listed initially, because if the defenders don’t come out with a stronger military they’ll be helping the enemy rebuild their military even faster with free wins.

Again, I don't want to put words in peoples mouths. The argument about limiting counter blitzes is not mine. The concern expressed was if a side gets the upper hand in their opening blitz, it shouldn't be too easy for the defeated side to rally and perform a coordinated counter blitz. Ideas like restricting when a nation could come out of beige (past suggestions) were concepts floated to remedy that. 

[alyster]

What's up with the "lets reward stupidity and dog piles" attitude vs discipline and beige cycling?

[Kosta]

What if a nation wins a defensive war? Why don't they get a bonus too? 

[Prefontaine]

Also while I have peoples attention regarding beige, please check out this thread and vote for spying during beige. 

[Zukran]

37 minutes ago, Prefontaine said:

One of the strongest resistances made from @Lucianus is that it should not be too easy for nations to come back after the first round and take out the attackers. If he wants to argue his point here on that topic I'll let him. The 10% reduction is something I'm more than happy to remove, but was added with those concerns in mind. 

With the proposed 10% reduction it will make it more difficult to come back at all. As people will be waiting for the built in mechanic to leave beige. Which upon doing so they will be immediately declared on from the other side. Not to mention you leaving beige will need to line up with other allies beige lining up.

 

The proposed changes eliminates beige cycling but introduces beige stagnation.

 

The new war meta will simply be stagnating members beiges so in a even fight the aggressor(who would have advantage) would be able to quickly beige a percentage of the other sides forces. Flipping from an even fight to be uneven by taking pieces off the board of the defending side. 

 

If you're truly looking to make wars last more than 24 hours and you want to allow the defending side to recover. You need to reduce damage dealt per attack significantly(60-75%). Make it so those pieces on the board aren't wiped the first hour war is declared. Allow the defending side to recover from the initial attack. Unless you do that the defending side will always lose with the current mechanics. 

Wars aren't won in 24 hours they last for days, weeks, months. The fact that a nations entire force can be eliminated within a couple hours is ridiculous and leaves you in a unrecoverable position.

 

Edited March 15, 2022 by Zukran

[Pascal]

1 hour ago, Prefontaine said:

 

1. If a nation leaves beige early, their units are 10% less effective in offensive wars for 12 turns.
2. If a nation wins a war, that nation can produce an additional 25% units for the remainder of that day. This number stacks but is always calculated off of the base 100% unit production levels.

 

Why ? These two just look dumb and favour dogpilers. Extremely bad.

[Prefontaine]

Just now, Kosta said:

What if a nation wins a defensive war? Why don't they get a bonus too? 

They do.

Just now, Pascal said:

Why ? These two just look dumb and favour dogpilers. Extremely bad.

Again, reacting to team concerns regarding it being too easy for a defeated side to come out of beige coordinated and counter blitz. If the members of the dev team who had/have these concerns want to address them I will let them. 

[Dream]

My views on these proposals:

1. Basically saying, when blitzing all wars should end in beige. Simply means you'll be beiging an entire sphere when you blitz them so they can rebuild to max military and counter blitz 😬 

2. This is somewhat the only suggestion that makes sense to me. Although I have no clue where the number 20 came from. 

3. On the top of beige stacking, now you'll have 6 days of beige time when your sphere is blitzed after all your wars are done. Enough to completely mil up again. I get that you're looking to make wars not end in 1 round, but these suggestions overdo it by alot. 

4. How often do pirates leave beige? Most of the times, so they'll constantly be affected by this. Would just kill raiding even more. 

5. This is just open to wide misuse. Sphere miling up? Hit a random nation and defeat them to get 25% boost in production. Take Clock vs Rose for example, Rose would've died round 1 if this mechanic existed back then. 

I have respect for everyone on the dev team who put time towards the game's development and progression. Although, I think that maybe a lot of time would be saved if a new team with more experienced players in different fields, was brought together. Time and time again, changes have been brought up by the current team which have been not been received well from the community. And from what I'm reading, this is one of them. 

Again, I'm not trying to hate on the dev team or anything, I just believe that it needs some newer faces. I hope you give this a thought. 

[The Baron]

The death of perma-rolling. Will make things more interesting for sure. Respect it. 

[Pascal]

7 minutes ago, Prefontaine said:

Again, reacting to team concerns regarding it being too easy for a defeated side to come out of beige coordinated and counter blitz. If the members of the dev team who had/have these concerns want to address them I will let them. 

If any alliance/sphere can put an efficient counter-blitz after losing the first round, it should be rewarded, not penalised. It's certainly not "too easy" (to not say close to impossible lol) to counter-blitz efficiently and turn the tide of a war when you lost the first round.

[Prefontaine]

7 minutes ago, Dream said:

My views on these proposals:

1. Basically saying, when blitzing all wars should end in beige. Simply means you'll be beiging an entire sphere when you blitz them so they can rebuild to max military and counter blitz 😬 

2. This is somewhat the only suggestion that makes sense to me. Although I have no clue where the number 20 came from. 

3. On the top of beige stacking, now you'll have 6 days of beige time when your sphere is blitzed after all your wars are done. Enough to completely mil up again. I get that you're looking to make wars not end in 1 round, but these suggestions overdo it by alot. 

4. How often do pirates leave beige? Most of the times, so they'll constantly be affected by this. Would just kill raiding even more. 

5. This is just open to wide misuse. Sphere miling up? Hit a random nation and defeat them to get 25% boost in production. Take Clock vs Rose for example, Rose would've died round 1 if this mechanic existed back then. 

I have respect for everyone on the dev team who put time towards the game's development and progression. Although, I think that maybe a lot of time would be saved if a new team with more experienced players in different fields, was brought together. Time and time again, changes have been brought up by the current team which have been not been received well from the community. And from what I'm reading, this is one of them. 

Again, I'm not trying to hate on the dev team or anything, I just believe that it needs some newer faces. I hope you give this a thought. 

First, happy to have new faces on the team. Are you asking to join?

1/3 - If a side can turn the tide, great. It makes the war more interested. It's also then possible the tide can turn multiple times. 

4- Pirate concerns are not high on the list when compared to balancing global war mechanics. Again it simply reduces casualties and not the outcome roll on the war victory type.

5- Would be a strategy, but you're also letting people know that a war is likely coming soon if a sphere does it on mass.