2/5/2020 - Major Announcement Regarding Enforcement of Game Rules

[Who Me 538]

12 minutes ago, Azaghul said:

I have a feeling once people have cooled down they'll change their mind and realized they were acting in haste, and hopefully we'll see some of those alliances come back.

If they come back hopefully they will all have new leadership because their old leaders failed them.

[brucemna 6]

35 minutes ago, HeroofTime55 said:

The only wrong was committed by NPO.  Alex did not hack his way into discord servers, he was welcomed in, just that you didn't know who he was when you welcomed him in.

This is the most laughable and pathetic excuse from NPO yet.  This isn't a US court, the notion of "tainted evidence" does not apply here, and this wouldn't even be "tainted evidence" in a US court, as the discord was essentially public, NPO provided no notice that Alex wasn't welcome, and Alex was under no obligation to identify himself.

Hmmm.   "Didnt know who he was"  ... public is a open channel... private is a channel that u need to be invite amd allowed in.  Seems to me u know of alot of deception  that occured 

[Alex 9783]

On 2/8/2020 at 3:09 AM, Maelstrom Vortex said:

It was pretty much spelled out.. verbatim. From the logs. I see that as a Mechanics.. not a moderation issue...

 

This isn't the whole log. Here it is, for full transparency and context:

It's clear that this log that's been trotted out by NPO over and over again was cropped to make it look better for them. This conversation opened with "I have an interesting question about fairness philosophy, so I'll use an extreme example"

And following up with "What would your gut reaction be?"

I agree with others in this thread who have stated I should have been more careful with my words. However, given the context, I don't think my answer was inappropriate. Had I known what was going on at the time, I would have implemented a change like I did when I found out, kicking inactive nations to Gray much sooner than 14 days to solve the problem mechanically. Finding out what was going on months later and having to compiling evidence, ban players, and create such a mess was never the solution I had desired.

The fact of the matter is that I did not understand what was going on. I just knew that the players weren't bots; they were real accounts run by real people. I didn't know what manhwa was, and I never dreamed that such a scheme could or would be implemented, especially to such a degree. And, as I pointed out in my report, the reason for that is because the GPWC members were actively discouraged from participating in the usual communication channels of the game and were told to keep the manhwa stuff secret.

9 hours ago, RC Bandit said:

By the way, the rule "Real-World Transactions for In-Game Materials" includes buying discord bots (real-life goods) for in-game money and/or resources.

So you better scrub your records so Alex doesn't ban you like NPO/GPWC leadership.

@HeroofTime55's response sums up my opinion on this pretty well:

6 hours ago, HeroofTime55 said:

I think there is a clear and obvious exception to the rule when it comes to game-related materials in the player-created, external environment, such as national flags and art, discord bots, and other alliance-related materials.  It's been pretty traditional in games like this to transact in-game cash to those with the talents to create materials that enhance the gameplay experience for everyone.

An external translation of a comic, having nothing to do with PnW, for people who have no real interest in playing PnW, except for it being required of them to continue to access the comic, I think is a very clear and very obvious difference from an in-game trade for external game-related materials.  The hairs that are being split here in an effort to muddy the waters are quite ridiculous.  

My interpretation and enforcement of the rules is that things that exist for the purpose of the game (game-related Discord bot, alliance flag, nation flag, custom graphics for the game, etc.) are okay to trade for in-game money.

[brucemna 6]

29 minutes ago, Alex said:

This isn't the whole log. Here it is, for full transparency and context:

It's clear that this log that's been trotted out by NPO over and over again was cropped to make it look better for them. This conversation opened with "I have an interesting question about fairness philosophy, so I'll use an extreme example"

And following up with "What would your gut reaction be?"

I agree with others in this thread who have stated I should have been more careful with my words. However, given the context, I don't think my answer was inappropriate. Had I known what was going on at the time, I would have implemented a change like I did when I found out, kicking inactive nations to Gray much sooner than 14 days to solve the problem mechanically. Finding out what was going on months later and having to compiling evidence, ban players, and create such a mess was never the solution I had desired.

The fact of the matter is that I did not understand what was going on. I just knew that the players weren't bots; they were real accounts run by real people. I didn't know what manhwa was, and I never dreamed that such a scheme could or would be implemented, especially to such a degree. And, as I pointed out in my report, the reason for that is because the GPWC members were actively discouraged from participating in the usual communication channels of the game and were told to keep the manhwa stuff secret.

@HeroofTime55's response sums up my opinion on this pretty well:

My interpretation and enforcement of the rules is that things that exist for the purpose of the game (game-related Discord bot, alliance flag, nation flag, custom graphics for the game, etc.) are okay to trade for in-game money.

Aside from the bot then .. does any member of ur mod team have the right to go into private owned channels or forums were they are members only access ?  Only a question and not a accusation ? 

[ArcKnox 1343]

He has the right to go anywhere he has permissions to go. This isn't a court and you have no rights as to what can't be used against you.

[Who Me 538]

16 minutes ago, brucemna said:

Aside from the bot then .. does any member of ur mod team have the right to go into private owned channels or forums were they are members only access ?  Only a question and not a accusation ? 

Well, someone had to give him the role on discord to allow him to enter the channel or the proper permission on forums, so once again that would be a screw up by your people.

[HeroofTime55 194]

21 minutes ago, brucemna said:

Aside from the bot then .. does any member of ur mod team have the right to go into private owned channels or forums were they are members only access ?  Only a question and not a accusation ? 

If your leaders mask them with permissions to access the server, then yeah, I'd say they do.  Which they did, and so he did.  Happy to answer your "just a question."

[brucemna 6]

22 minutes ago, HeroofTime55 said:

If your leaders mask them with permissions to access the server, then yeah, I'd say they do.  Which they did, and so he did.  Happy to answer your "just a question."

Well funny thing is you urself I think or someone else had said they didnt know whom he was .... but my question was not if he did or didnt but if they had the right too ... and it dont matter whom it is but regardless entering into a private domain and then copying stuff with a false identity then making it public is ? 

[Who Me 538]

16 minutes ago, brucemna said:

Well funny thing is you urself I think or someone else had said they didnt know whom he was .... but my question was not if he did or didnt but if they had the right too ... and it dont matter whom it is but regardless entering into a private domain and then copying stuff with a false identity then making it public is ? 

Where was all this moral outrage about log dumps when they were benefiting you after tCW left coalition B to support their allies?

[Etatsorp 104]

@brucemna a couple of points, crimes that happen behind closed doors are still crimes, and RL standards of evidence do not apply here, we must accept the admin's decision and move on for the good of the game.  This is akin to displaying good sportsmanship on the field, you don't need to like the ref's decision, but you do need to accept it.

Anyway, given that it seems the vast majority of the Orbis community appears satisfied (to varying degrees sure) with the outcome of Alex's investigation, I would like to suggest that you put down your sword, shield and microscope, have a coffee and think about the future.  I mean at some point it is usually worth looking in the mirror and wondering why it's you against the world.  This is no RL moral dilemma here, no-ones questioning your stance on contentious RL issues, no-ones life is on the line.  Believe it or not, almost everyone just wants to get on with playing the game such as it is intended to be, the war is still going on after all.

[Tankobite 26]

4 hours ago, Shiho Nishizumi said:

It doesn't, because the two are separate matters.

The scanlations were provided in exchange of having the farms generate the revenue for them. That violation took place independently from the way in which the information was gathered.

You're trying to muddy up the waters because your other defenses/excuses keep falling flat.

Typical NPO response: Throw nonsense at the wall to see what sticks and wear people down arguing waves of concern trolls.

[Madokami 72]

5 hours ago, Azaghul said:

I also don't believe that NPO deliberately went into this attempting to break the rules, but that it became a slippery slope that took a couple of steps to get to clear rule breaking.

1) Trying to recruit outside players from another community is a good thing, not a bad thing.
2) Trying to make it easy for the new players to play is a good thing, not a bad thing.
3) Trying to provide good OOC content to keep people engaged in the community is a good thing and something most alliances due to some degree with things like playing other games together, OOC discussion threads, etc.

The problem was they stretched all three of those things well past normal, reasonable limits.  I imagine it came about a few steps at a time.  Part of that was also stretching what Alex said to an unreasonable limit.

For most people who end up doing something bad and/or illegal, that's how they get there... small things add up.  Behavior changes slowly not all at once.

Using a personal example, in CN I definitely looked the other way to multi tech rings when I shouldn't have, and became more complicit in it over time from suspecting illegal activity to explicitly knowing about it.  And I'd like to think I'm at least as honest as most people.

Just saying this to make the case for some degree of empathy/sympathy... I think most of us would be more susceptible, in the wrong circumstances, to involving ourselves in something like this than we would care to admit.  Looking at this as a series of small errors that added up to a big error, rather than just one single big error, is also a framework for NPO members to consider how they messed up.

You forget that they also told them that they didnt have to play the game, just login every x days

[Sir Scarfalot 2692]

And now, it is done.

A salute to the second alliance to pass 1k members, may the next one to do so fare better.

Lyrics:

Army of Dolls

Delain

How do you look into the mirror
When you're too tired to fake a smile
Your misery won't make you look thinner
Reality is bitter
It's your hand and yours alone that has opened
The door to let their voices in
Into your head, under your skin
Fix your face or you will never fit in

Do you want me, do you want me
To burst your bubble now?
Do you want me, I will break it
Make it loud
Do you want me, do you want me
To break the paradigm
These rules were made by us
They break you up inside
They will break you down

Army of dolls stole your reflection
Army of dolls stole all your perfect imperfections
Just shut them out, don't let them in
Into our head
Do you really think
Misery tastes so much sweeter
Served with a perfect smile

Do you want me, do you want me
To burst your bubble now?
Do you want me, I will break it
Make it loud
Do you want me, do you want me
To break the paradigm
These rules were made by us
They break you up inside
They will break you down

Don't you look into the mirror
Army of dolls made you so bitter
Make-up magpul follow the leader
Never have seen a face much sweeter

Don't you look into the mirror
Army of dolls made you so bitter
Make-up magpul follow the leader
Never have seen a face much sweeter

Do you want me, do you want me
To burst your bubble now?
Do you want me, I will break it
Make it loud
Do you want me, do you want me
To break the paradigm
These rules were made by us
They break you up inside
They will break you down

Source: Musixmatch

Songwriters: Martijn Westerholt

Army of Dolls lyrics © Robot Of The Century Songs, A・k Company Limited, Kobalt Music Netherlands International B.v.

Edited February 10 by Sir Scarfalot
lyrics count

[Ibsheway 22]

8 hours ago, Azaghul said:

I think most of us would be more susceptible, in the wrong circumstances, to involving ourselves in something like this than we would care to admit

 

Edited February 10 by Ibsheway

[Hodor 2719]

On 2/8/2020 at 2:36 PM, brucemna said:

Seriously.. wonders how u know so much what Alex is doing and whom u are to demand anything. 

 

On 2/8/2020 at 3:30 PM, brucemna said:

First and foremost the question was who do u think u r to be the one whom decides that we will disband .  

 

16 hours ago, brucemna said:

One question... does alex or pnw own discord. As far as I know whomever owns the channel is that and discord is a separate entity which is chosen by people to do their communications.  Unless stated public I beleive private channels are just that. If one enters that private channel and copies anything they are actually invading privacy is my thought if not given permission by the channel owner would I beleive be the rule of thumb.

 

13 hours ago, brucemna said:

Well funny thing is you urself I think or someone else had said they didnt know whom he was .... but my question was not if he did or didnt but if they had the right too ... and it dont matter whom it is but regardless entering into a private domain and then copying stuff with a false identity then making it public is ? 

Your arguments are being addressed, but I can't stand by any longer and watch you use whom so incorrectly.

Whom is the object of a sentence (object of a verb or a preposition, most commonly used after a preposition). Who is the subject of a sentence.

Ex. For whom are lying?
Ex. Who are you lying for?

The subject of a sentence is that noun that is "doing" the action. This can be determined by asking who or what is VERBing.

Ex. NPO is cheating.
WHO is cheating? NPO. NPO is the subject.

The object of a sentence is the thing that the verb is being done to. So you can ask what is being VERBed.

Ex. NPO is ruining the game.
What is being ruined? The game (the object.) Who is ruining the game? NPO (the subject.)

The object of a preposition is that which follows a preposition, for a full list of prepositions and a song to learn them, go here.

Ex. NPO threw a temper tantrun along with their friend BK.
WITH is the preposition, "their friend BK" is the object of the preposition. So we could substitute "their friend BK" here with a variant of whom such as: NPO threw a temper tantrum along with whomever sympathizes with cheaters.

Carry on.

Edited February 10 by Hodor

[Dr James Wilson 376]

14 hours ago, brucemna said:

Well funny thing is you urself I think or someone else had said they didnt know whom he was .... but my question was not if he did or didnt but if they had the right too ... and it dont matter whom it is but regardless entering into a private domain and then copying stuff with a false identity then making it public is ? 

It literally does not matter when the people in charge masked him themselves.  Any right to privacy you have (which really doesn't exist here, on the internet) is waived the moment you give someone access.   He even said how easy it was for him to gain access to the relevant discords and take the screenshots himself.

 

What part of this are you not understanding?   

[Tankobite 26]

6 minutes ago, Dr James Wilson said:

It literally does not matter when the people in charge masked him themselves.  Any right to privacy you have (which really doesn't exist here, on the internet) is waived the moment you give someone access.   He even said how easy it was for him to gain access to the relevant discords and take the screenshots himself.

 

What part of this are you not understanding?   

Whatever part he can deliberately obfuscate to shift the blame to Alex.

[Madden8021 271]

20 hours ago, brucemna said:

So two wrongs make a right ? 

You're still failing to realise that NPO has done everything illegal and cheated the game and are now gaining the hate for it. But YOU are sucking up to NPO's Propaganda Kool-aid and trying to lie to the facts that are true. NPO illegally gave scanlations in one of the GPWC Text Channels in order to use their nations as tax farms which now has been removed or moved to another server in order to keep the evidence hidden from reaching Discord's Trust and Safety Teams hands just to give I.P Bans to NPO's Government "which they do deserve to have bans due to copyright infringement," and overall, just cheating for In-game materials while GPWC members who are clueless in seeing what's going on behind the scenes and think that P&W is more like Farmville when really it was a Tax Scam Operation just to keep this almost 9 month war going and refusing to give peace.

I think that the entirety of NPO's and GPWC's government should be ashamed for doing it and have the book thrown at them "book meaning being brought to a legal court" to which NPO is now on a downward spiral scandal after caught red handed. My thoughts on what's best for NPO is to finally give into peace and just disband since they can either be more of a punching bag via Perma roll/war and loose treaties to where you're paperless and no alliance wants to team up and keep NPO protected or just choose to disband. So it's one of the two choices, choose wisely or don't at all.

Let's be reminded that scanlations are illegal and apart of piracy so please. 

 

Edited February 10 by Madden8021

[Guest PhantomThiefB]

20 hours ago, Who Me said:

Well, someone had to give him the role on discord to allow him to enter the channel or the proper permission on forums, so once again that would be a screw up by your people.

Alright enough dude, piss off. I've defended you a ton everytime Coalition A nations started accusing you of botting in baseball. So take your BS rhetoric elsewhere.

[Who Me 538]

Just now, SleepingNinja said:

Alright enough dude, piss off. I've defended you a ton everytime Coalition A nations started accusing you of botting in baseball. So take your BS rhetoric elsewhere.

The truth hurts I guess, he couldn't give himself the roles so someone had to give them to him. It's just common sense. I'm sorry if that upsets you but it is what it is.

[Guest PhantomThiefB]

2 minutes ago, Who Me said:

The truth hurts I guess, he couldn't give himself the roles so someone had to give them to him. It's just common sense. I'm sorry if that upsets you but it is what it is.

Guess the truth is gonna hurt too once they convince Alex you've been botting the whole time. What goes around comes around buddy. If all your gonna do is spew venom everywhere else might want to consider your own karma before it decides to bite you in the ass too.

Either way neither of us care so bugger off.

Edited February 10 by PhantomThiefB

[Who Me 538]

4 minutes ago, SleepingNinja said:

Guess the truth is gonna hurt too once they convince Alex you've been botting the whole time. What goes around comes around buddy. If all your gonna do is spew venom everywhere else might want to consider your own karma before it decides to bite you in the ass too.

Either way neither of us care to bugger off.

All he has to do is look at my patterns of play to know the truth. Bots don't have pauses in play when they get up to grab something to eat, go to the bathroom, take the dog out or play with the dog. I do all those things. I also don't play for several hours straight during the day. Just because you guys got caught cheating and got lightly punished for it doesn't mean everyone you think is cheating actually is. If your only proof is "he plays a lot of games" you should probably rethink your responses.

[Azaghul 760]

16 hours ago, Madokami said:

You forget that they also told them that they didnt have to play the game, just login every x days

I'd consider that stretching "trying to make it easier for players to play" past normal, reasonable limits.  It's not uncommon or unreasonable for alliances to make an effort to make things easier for people who don't have the desire to be very active to be productive while still being relatively inactive.  This took that to the extreme.

The point I'm trying to make is that this didn't have to start as rule breaking to become rule breaking.  There's a slippery slope.

[brucemna 6]

9 hours ago, Dr James Wilson said:

It literally does not matter when the people in charge masked him themselves.  Any right to privacy you have (which really doesn't exist here, on the internet) is waived the moment you give someone access.   He even said how easy it was for him to gain access to the relevant discords and take the screenshots himself.

 

What part of this are you not 

Whatever.. here ur talking bout honesty and stuff but yet it is okay to disguise oneself and just invade the privacy of anyone. 

[ArcKnox 1343]

The first response to being confronted with the evidence was to start deleting shit and feeding bullshit lies to Alex, so you can get off the moral high ground.

Edited February 11 by ArcKnox