[RoH] Truth and Honor

[Sweeeeet Ronny D]

5 hours ago, Pascal said:

That is just full cope. We were "allies" (a rather one-sided relationship since November, tbqh), we also know how you really felt about t$ along with certain other parties.

You can keep plotting against Sail & ODOO with your own third parties, sorry I meant your "closest friends", without trying to involve us now.

So TFP plots to attack us, while Eclipse tries to poach from us, seems like you guys are still pretty aligned.

[Vein]

35 minutes ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

So TFP plots to attack us, while Eclipse tries to poach from us, seems like you guys are still pretty aligned.

Clearly i was trying to protect you guys against evil foes

[Worcestershire]

6 hours ago, Vexz said:

The basis of your argument boils down to self-assumptions. You want to believe TFP will just go along with the whims of what Sing calls and disregard the fact that the talks that lead up to their future partnership probably hashed out the individuality of one another and created a shared goal. Seeing former events, I'd think you can understand that while an ally/partner may say one thing publicly you feel another way. All you did here is create a self-written prophecy, by giving TFP a reason to hold ill feelings towards you guys the same way Sing has. 

All FA is based on assumptions. As much as we would like to know exactly what rumors to believe and what talk to dismiss, that simply isn’t a possibility. Couple our intelligence with the fact that former allies of TFP are in this very thread talking about them plotting against SAIL, add in that they are planning to ally Singularity, and to me our assumption seems more than reasonable. Given our history, we do know full well that alliances are capable of political nuance, but that simply isn’t the picture we have here. The picture we have is an alliance scheming against us and intending to ally another alliance who’s whole FA policy is based around wanting to see us rolled. We don’t want to believe that TFP will just go along with Singularity, it’s what we must believe based on a preponderance of evidence. And since you mention history, I would like to remind you of our rather unpleasant string defensive wars not too long ago. Given our history, we also know that it doesn’t pay to be reactive, to make moves only when absolutely positive of their necessity. Sometimes you need to act on logical assumptions. We have only created a self fulfilling prophecy in the event which the assumption that TFP was going to try to reel in Singularity is true, which I am very much skeptical of. 

 

6 hours ago, Vexz said:

Also odd to do the same thing you are currently accusing/holding Sing accountable for. "Attempted and thwarted neutering of friendly entities with the intent of undermining SAIL’s competitiveness." A bit tainting to your whole 'Sing did a sin' when you are self-admitting to do just that. 

 

I won’t speak for the alliance as a whole in this part, I personally don’t have any objections to Singularity’s actions at face value. They have an FA department that will do what an FA department does: try to promote their interests and work against the interests of their enemies. That’s the whole politics side of the game and I don’t fault them for playing it. My trouble with their actions is that they’re directed at us, so I think it naturally makes sense for us to respond in kind.

[Shwin]

7 hours ago, Pascal said:

That is just full cope. We were "allies" (a rather one-sided relationship since November, tbqh), we also know how you really felt about t$ along with certain other parties.

You can keep plotting against Sail & ODOO with your own third parties, sorry I meant your "closest friends", without trying to involve us now.

I purposely left this part pretty vague to see if anyone would take the bait. Maybe if you realized the world doesn’t revolve around you, you would’ve realized we’ve had many former allies in an unspecified time span. Thanks for exposing yourself though.

[KindaEpicMoah]

6 minutes ago, Shwin said:

the world doesn’t revolve around you

It doesn't? 

[Vein]

14 hours ago, Shwin said:

At the end of the day, all of the evidence presented suggests the exact opposite of their narrative - that not only were we not interested in targeting them, but we actually wanted to work with them and take on a fun challenge. Ultimately, this means one of two things. Either they knew this was a false narrative to begin with and are choosing to be opportunistic - the same thing they called out Singularity for and would therefore label themselves hypocrites; or they are gullible enough to believe a false narrative given to them by their closest friends - our former allies. 

 

 

 

22 minutes ago, Shwin said:

I purposely left this part pretty vague to see if anyone would take the bait. Maybe if you realized the world doesn’t revolve around you, you would’ve realized we’ve had many former allies in an unspecified time span. Thanks for exposing yourself though.

What part of it was vague? you specifically mentioned your former allies which the recent ones are WELP. There was no bait taken and you aren't playing 4d chess. Be more clear next time lol. giving you the benefit of the doubt, what former allies were you talking about? 

[Shwin]

50 minutes ago, Vein said:

 

What part of it was vague? you specifically mentioned your former allies which the recent ones are WELP. There was no bait taken and you aren't playing 4d chess. Be more clear next time lol. giving you the benefit of the doubt, what former allies were you talking about? 

All I will say is that our intended target was not eclipse

[BettaChecka]

1 hour ago, Richard IX said:

Man, stfu

Don't talk to @Vein like that, he's the only one keeping the Fr*nch bastard in check.

[Avatar Patrick]

2 hours ago, Shwin said:

Maybe if you realized the world doesn’t revolve around you

https://tenor.com/view/gif-shinobi-you-are-wrong-sponge-bob-gif-14685744

[penpiko]

Shwin being as cryptic as possible so that no one can call out the BS, classic. If no one knows what the hell you’re talking about, no one can contradict! 

[Patrick Stewart]

3 hours ago, Shwin said:

I purposely left this part pretty vague to see if anyone would take the bait. Maybe if you realized the world doesn’t revolve around you, you would’ve realized we’ve had many former allies in an unspecified time span. Thanks for exposing yourself though.

[Mysterious]

 

Bullshit.

5 hours ago, Vein said:

Clearly i was trying to protect you guys against evil foes

Edited January 17 by Mysterious

[Bobert]

i'm going to need a lot of popcorn for this

[Jeric]

I for one wasn't happy about the way things ended. Honestly I wished y'all would have waited to tell us you planned to leave but what's done is done..

 

LoD will continue to help cover the color bloc as per our agreement..

 

Best regards: J

[Ronjoy Tehmina]

I may not be fighting for TPF this war, but I can't help admire your continuous effort for writing up detailed and meaningful posts @Shwin. All the best and I hope issues can be solved soon. 

Edited January 18 by Ronjoy Tehmina

[Shockrider1]

1 hour ago, Jeric said:

I for one wasn't happy about the way things ended. Honestly I wished y'all would have waited to tell us you planned to leave but what's done is done..

 

LoD will continue to help cover the color bloc as per our agreement..

 

Best regards: J

I do appreciate the sentiment - I enjoyed our relationship, both before and during our time as allies.

I am genuinely curious, though - why exactly do you see it as a negative that we gave you advance notice of our intentions? Surely all that did was open up more opportunities for you/give you time to figure out next steps? Even if it did give you "mixed feelings" about us, I would personally have been much more unhappy with an ally giving us their 72hr out of nowhere/with little to no notice.

[The Titan]

Nobody is going to care about my opinion but I’ll give it anyway:

Regarding Syndi’s CB:

I personally see T$’s perspective as the correct one. Syndicate sees Singularity as a hostile party, and has made that clear to Orbis through the current war. Your choice to ally Singularity is yours to make, and nobody is really trying to stop you. But by doing so, you are showing Syndi that you’re choosing to be the opposition. (The enemy of my enemy is my friend, the friend of my enemy is also my enemy.)

Syndicate is at war realistically in a preemptive state. They declared on you because the likely hood of you being a hostile party next war cycle is very high, based on their knowledge of Singularity and your choice to ally them. How else were they supposed to act? Be fine that their enemy is growing stronger? Just assume that “oh TFP chats with us in an embassy they’ll make Sing like us”? They made a move based on the facts they had, and if I were in their shoes I would have made the same choice.

Regarding the TFP WELP relationship 

From an outside perspective looking in, it feels like you’re making these moves with the sole purpose of avoiding a war. Which, perhaps is necessary for your alliance direction, I too have made moves as an alliance and pushed our sphere to move in a direction to avoid conflict from time to time, but it’s also important that you value your relationships as an alliance as well.

I know a thing or two about getting absolutely steam rolled side by side with my allies, but that’s the point, it was with my allies.

When you and I had our conversation regarding the fact that “It’s not like we’ve got lines of ppl waiting” when I asked about your direction, it’s likely because people recognize that you went for two easy wars (vs Fortuna, then vs ODOO) but as soon as, perhaps, things may have been stacking against WELP in some for or another, you jump ship to go with a party that has already had their rolling. It makes people think before allying you.

 

TL:DR: Two very major diplomatic mistakes on TFP’s part in my opinion. While I like you guys personally I understand T$’s move entirely and I also understand why it was particularly difficult when you were seeking protection post-WELP pre-Sing.

 

Best of luck to both sides fighting, and thanks for making them food prices soar. Churning in the dollars over here.

[Buorhann]

2 hours ago, The Titan said:

-Snip-

So you're agreeing on the whole "INTENTION" of future allying a hostile party is justification?

Your logic is...  weird.  "They declared on you because of the likely hood of you being a hostile party next war cycle"   What?  That's how you definitely make enemies.  Not just with the alliance you're suspect of, but of others as well who's watching your actions.

See, stupid shit like that is why I simply just go for burning pixels as my CB.  Some of you are whack in the head with your FA perspectives.

[Shiho Nishizumi]

36 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

So you're agreeing on the whole "INTENTION" of future allying a hostile party is justification?

Your logic is...  weird.  "They declared on you because of the likely hood of you being a hostile party next war cycle"   What?  That's how you definitely make enemies.  Not just with the alliance you're suspect of, but of others as well who's watching your actions.

I'd agree with your viewpoint if an alliance was deemed as being neutral or friendly.

TFP was neither, and that's the point. There was nothing in that relationship suggesting that they would have acted as a restraining factor. What did exist indicated the opposite.

As for the last bit; I'll hazard a guess and say that most third parties are just baffled about TFP telling WEL that it wanted to go its own separate way in the middle of a war.

[Buorhann]

8 hours ago, Shiho Nishizumi said:

As for the last bit; I'll hazard a guess and say that most third parties are just baffled about TFP telling WEL that it wanted to go its own separate way in the middle of a war.

If there was confirmation of TFP entering in the war, that’s one thing.  I don’t mind the opportunistic reason either, but I’m also someone who likes to hit Protectorates.  Still, from my experience, I know both are negative moves.

As for the quoted statement, why?  It’s been done multiple times throughout the history of this game with no detriment.

Sidenote: Firwof upvoted your reply.  That’s an automatic penalty there.

[Shiho Nishizumi]

4 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

As for the quoted statement, why?  It’s been done multiple times throughout the history of this game with no detriment.

In most cases, it's either the group doing the rolling or being rolled discussing those. Rarely, if ever, was it the case that there's a fully milled third party that one knows isn't on good terms with you.

Couple that with them already having an idea of what to do next (sign Singu) and apparently not getting along too well with Eclipse (cue Pascal's comment), and my wonder is why didn't they wait until peace to 72 (or otherwise notify).

[Buorhann]

46 minutes ago, Shiho Nishizumi said:

Couple that with them already having an idea of what to do next (sign Singu) and apparently not getting along too well with Eclipse (cue Pascal's comment), and my wonder is why didn't they wait until peace to 72 (or otherwise notify).

I'd argue the fact that TFP mentioned it to you guys in Syndicate is a sign of good faith for their intentions.  They had no obligation to do that.

I'm also not surprised by their relation with Eclipse, Eclipse has their own controversy with past alignments too.  Could that have been handled better?  Sure, so could have others that have happened.  Hence my statement of people being stupid in the head with FA stuff.

[Vein]

24 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

I'm also not surprised by their relation with Eclipse, Eclipse has their own controversy with past alignments too.  Could that have been handled better?  Sure, so could have others that have happened.  Hence my statement of people being stupid in the head with FA stuff.

Could you explain more in details? I don't regret us giving TFP the 72h, if anything it has just exposed their true color even beyond what i was expecting. 

Edited January 18 by Vein

[John Wayne Jr.]

As a new player, i wish the conundrum in TFP is solved quickly and efficiently, it seems quite serious from the original post.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

4 hours ago, Buorhann said:

I'd argue the fact that TFP mentioned it to you guys in Syndicate is a sign of good faith for their intentions.  They had no obligation to do that.

I feel like it would be quite a leap of assumptions to say "An alliance that has been hostile towards us since before Darkest Hour has told us of their intentions to sign with the alliance that is clearly the most hostile towards us. This is a sign of good faith and of good things to come."

I would be more inclined to agree with your point if there had been a history of friendship and cooperation and openness between T$ and TFP, but there hasn't been. I'd be more inclined to agree if there had been a history of openness and friendship between Shwin and I, but there hasn't been. 

At no point since I became Executive has Shwin reached out to me or my staff about improving relations, or mending fences or anything of the sort, and outside of the one screenshot presented in Shwin's first post I don't know of any instances of that happening before I became Executive either. Hells, even in the very matter that led to this situation, the questioning of intentions after TFP was removed from WELP, Shwin reached out to CTO and Aurora about their intentions and asked THEM to ask T$ and SAIL of our intentions instead of coming to talk to us ourselves.

You're asking that we'd put a great deal of trust and faith in an alliance that we've had multiple years of bad blood with, have heard for months has has had ill will towards us, and has never reached out to us to improve relations or mend fences, especially when T$ has been bitten in the past when putting faith in and trusting other alliances to have good intentions towards us.