Future for Alpha

[Chimaera]

Honestly I told t$ that I wouldn't bother talking to Alpha anymore and just keep rolling them.  Each and every single one of them, but that's me.

 

I saw the original message from Eumir.  It had the image of the shitposting guide that Placentica posted up.  Then I noticed Placentica had edited it out of his reply from the original source.

 

Once I read the logs of the peace talks, I pretty much told t$ leadership that I wouldn't bother with Alpha any more.

 

 

It's gone too far.  If members of Alpha wants peace, they can come to t$ leadership and talk it out.  Normally the victors doesn't go to their enemies to offer them white peace, and sure as hell the losers don't get to dictate the terms.

 

Syndicate has wide spread score of nations in the alliance.  And with Sheepy's score change, we can keep Alpha pinned down for a long time.

 

This is spot-on.  Alpha's done nothing to indicate genuine willingness for peace.  The very notion that the 'talks' last night were conducted in anything remotely approaching good faith on Alpha's end is complete and total bull*&^%.  You don't get to dictate who Syndicate's government members are.  You don't get to demand we sign an NAP with an alliance that has proven remarkably willing, in the past, to betray Syndicate and to attempt to see it destroyed.  You don't get to do anything even close to all that.  You just wanted to start a conversation so you could tell your members and the OWF you were seeking peace and hopefully turn public opinion regarding the war around - the poorly executed, hastily thought out, and frankly embarrassing strategy of 'do everything possible for PR' has been going on since Day One of this war, and I'm pretty damn amazed that our government put up with Steve's nonsense last night for as long as they did.

[Aksel]

I believe we all have come to the sorted conclusion that Alpha is garbage and no matter what path they take, they will always be garbage. 

 

You can move the NG out of (That terrible game that is totally irrelevant and I shouldn't be bringing it up anyways) but you can't take the NG out of Alpha. Or something like that. 

 

Alpha you're garbage - stinky, hot garbage.

 

 

IF you're an Alpha Supporter....its like being a Hillary Supporter. 

 

 

good gracious 

Edited May 8, 2016 by Mad Max

[Thalmor]

IF you're an Alpha Supporter....its like being a Hillary Supporter. 

 

That's offensive to Hillary Supporters. At least Hillary can run a PR campaign.

[Aksel]

That's offensive to Hillary Supporters. At least Hillary can run a PR campaign.

 

 

 

 

(click image to donate to the Placentica Campaign)

Edited May 8, 2016 by Mad Max

[Ezg]

Honestly I told t$ that I wouldn't bother talking to Alpha anymore and just keep rolling them.  Each and every single one of them, but that's me.

 

I saw the original message from Eumir.  It had the image of the shitposting guide that Placentica posted up.  Then I noticed Placentica had edited it out of his reply from the original source.

 

Once I read the logs of the peace talks, I pretty much told t$ leadership that I wouldn't bother with Alpha any more.

 

 

It's gone too far.  If members of Alpha wants peace, they can come to t$ leadership and talk it out.  Normally the victors doesn't go to their enemies to offer them white peace, and sure as hell the losers don't get to dictate the terms.

 

Syndicate has wide spread score of nations in the alliance.  And with Sheepy's score change, we can keep Alpha pinned down for a long time.

 

I dont think you guys are actually winning at this point. More importantly I dont think you guys were ever winning. The new score change doesnt reflect that and makes it look like alpha is getting stomped while we are actually doing ok. Our infra is now so cheap it doesnt matter if we lose it, you guys still have expensive infra to lose.

 

Using infra calcuator---example

10-1500 infra 6,727,776.15------alpha

1500-2000 infra 9,055,712.09-----ts

 

Overall this entire war(if i copied and pasted correctly from war tracker)

alpha has lost 8.5 bill in infra cost

ts has lost 5.6 bill

test has lost 2.4 bill

 

Overall ratio of losses is about 1.06:1 which is basically 1 to 1. So infra wise its basically a draw for infra damage lost. I didnt run stats for last wars, but I think winning would be at least 2 to 1. Idk really maybe not.

 

War goods wise, ts is doing much much better. So good job. But this war certainty has not been a stomp which means alpha can negotiate for hopefully favorable peace terms.

[Prefonteen]

I dont think you guys are actually winning at this point. More importantly I dont think you guys were ever winning. The new score change doesnt reflect that and makes it look like alpha is getting stomped while we are actually doing ok. Our infra is now so cheap it doesnt matter if we lose it, you guys still have expensive infra to lose.

 

Using infra calcuator---example

10-1500 infra 6,727,776.15------alpha

1500-2000 infra 9,055,712.09-----ts

 

Overall this entire war(if i copied and pasted correctly from war tracker)

alpha has lost 8.5 bill in infra cost

ts has lost 5.6 bill

test has lost 2.4 bill

 

Overall ratio of losses is about 1.06:1 which is basically 1 to 1. So infra wise its basically a draw for infra damage lost. I didnt run stats for last wars, but I think winning would be at least 2 to 1. Idk really maybe not.

 

War goods wise, ts is doing much much better. So good job. But this war certainty has not been a stomp which means alpha can negotiate for hopefully favorable peace terms.

 

Would you say that your current peace terms are not favorable? What would constitute 'favorable peace terms'?

 

Honestly, the one stipulation t$ had coming into negotiations was an apology for an act I think we all agree was pretty low. No other punitive measures.

[Ivan the Red]

No problem, bro. Since you are winning you can stay under our boot for one more week if you like. It's not like we mind that each nuke you throw at one of our 1000 infra cities costs more than the infra it destroys.

 

 

BTW:

 

Alpha:

Total Cities: 451

Total Infrastructure: 264,470.39

Total Soldiers: 702,962

Total Tanks: 29,906

Total Aircraft: 2,910

Total Ships: 393

Total Missiles: 9

Total Nuclear Weapons: 24

 

The Syndicate:

Total Cities: 1,026

Total Infrastructure: 1,481,625.94

Total Soldiers: 12,236,298

Total Tanks: 689,004

Total Aircraft: 74,308

Total Ships: 1,453

Total Missiles: 112

Total Nuclear Weapons: 24

 

 

If not for the two members you have in vacation mode, we would have more tanks than you have soldiers. And those things cost money. There are things more expensive than infra.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Ivan the Red

[Spaceman Thrax]

I dont think you guys are actually winning at this point. More importantly I dont think you guys were ever winning. The new score change doesnt reflect that and makes it look like alpha is getting stomped while we are actually doing ok. Our infra is now so cheap it doesnt matter if we lose it, you guys still have expensive infra to lose.

 

Using infra calcuator---example

10-1500 infra 6,727,776.15------alpha

1500-2000 infra 9,055,712.09-----ts

 

Overall this entire war(if i copied and pasted correctly from war tracker)

alpha has lost 8.5 bill in infra cost

ts has lost 5.6 bill

test has lost 2.4 bill

 

Overall ratio of losses is about 1.06:1 which is basically 1 to 1. So infra wise its basically a draw for infra damage lost. I didnt run stats for last wars, but I think winning would be at least 2 to 1. Idk really maybe not.

 

War goods wise, ts is doing much much better. So good job. But this war certainty has not been a stomp which means alpha can negotiate for hopefully favorable peace terms.

 

I don't think anyone from our side would debate you did well, at least at the member level, with the situation you had available to you, if that's your point. Couple things I'd have done differently, but I could say that of my side too. But we CAN keep you pinned basically forever, because our economy is still functioning and yours is not. For us it's just a matter of shifting the capacity around.

 

Anyways I notice your gov ignored my crack at making an impartial discussion and devolved this into some kind of a dumpster fire. In my case, I'm going to contentedly sit idle and wait to be approached in something approaching a reasonable manner, and I'll probably recommend that our government do the same.

 

I am very, very tired of dealing with your government, and the last couple of pages in this thread should probably indicate why.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Manthrax

[Ezg]

No problem, bro. Since you are winning you can stay under our boot for one more week if you like. It's not like we mind that each nuke you throw at one of our 1000 infra cities costs more than the infra it destroys.

You guys are fast lols. No I think we will nuke cities like Roy's has with 2000 infra and destroy 1750 infra along with a nuclear power plant(no luck involved at all) hehehehe.

Also I never said alpha winning, only winners from this war are gpa and everyone else making money off market.

 

@manthrax

I dont think steve trusts ts upper gov(especially Partisan) for whatever reason and is constantly on guard for him to pull a fast one over alpha. But yes this thread went straight to hell pretty fast. Also pw forums are mainly pr fight of he said she said whatever nonsense. Steve is much more reasonable in game at least to alpha members. 

Edited May 9, 2016 by Ezg

[LordRahl2]

You can just drop them into negative income infra range. I know the concept of lost potential output/income is mind twisting but Orbis could use it an object lesson.

 

Protip: alpha is getting crushed in every immanginable sense of the word. The propoganda is cute but is either simply ignorant or an attempt to obfuscate.

Edited May 9, 2016 by LordRahl2

[Chimaera]

I dont think you guys are actually winning at this point. More importantly I dont think you guys were ever winning. The new score change doesnt reflect that and makes it look like alpha is getting stomped while we are actually doing ok. Our infra is now so cheap it doesnt matter if we lose it, you guys still have expensive infra to lose.

 

Using infra calcuator---example

10-1500 infra 6,727,776.15------alpha

1500-2000 infra 9,055,712.09-----ts

 

Overall this entire war(if i copied and pasted correctly from war tracker)

alpha has lost 8.5 bill in infra cost

ts has lost 5.6 bill

test has lost 2.4 bill

 

Overall ratio of losses is about 1.06:1 which is basically 1 to 1. So infra wise its basically a draw for infra damage lost. I didnt run stats for last wars, but I think winning would be at least 2 to 1. Idk really maybe not.

 

War goods wise, ts is doing much much better. So good job. But this war certainty has not been a stomp which means alpha can negotiate for hopefully favorable peace terms.

 

See, this ignores the most important number of them all - money available to replace said infrastructure.  And that's a fight you cannot possibly hope to win.  

[Roy Mustang]

You guys are fast lols. No I think we will nuke cities like Roy's has with 2000 infra and destroy 1750 infra along with a nuclear power plant(no luck involved at all) hehehehe.

Also I never said alpha winning, only winners from this war are gpa and everyone else making money off market.

 

Well if that's the tack you wanna take, fair enough. Let's return to the more salient point of the crazy lenient terms we offered that your government rejected. What, exactly, do you think you can possibly negotiate that will be more favorable?

[Ivan the Red]

You guys are fast lols. No I think we will nuke cities like Roy's has with 2000 infra and destroy 1750 infra along with a nuclear power plant(no luck involved at all) hehehehe.

 

When your war with him expires (in a few hours I think), your alliance will have no nation in range to engage him. Like you have no one in range to engage me. So you can, maybe, lobby one more nuke at him, and that's about it.

 

Before the war, your alliance was way infra-heavier than ours. We had two members with cities over 2,500 infra. You had scores of people with cities over 3,000. I don't think your math on infra value lost is accurate. And you don't account for all the losses in military hardware, or the costs of nukes.

 

Anyway, you have peace on the table. If only, for once, your leader takes responsibility for his actions. Because that image was changed from his imgur account. So either he did it, or someone he gave access did it.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Ivan the Red

[donsberger]

Also, you do realize if you are nuking then they are rebuilding from 100-2000 not 1500-2000 and they with their airstrikes are taking out infra evenly between cities

[japan77]

Ok, So what I'm getting from this is

1. T$ offered alpha peace terms along the lines of a white peace+apology over a group of post that was clearly OOC

2. Alpha believes that this rape-incident was an elaborate setup by T$ to screw over alpha leadership through a complex tricks of backdoors

3. As such Alpha refuses to agree to issue the Apology, and pushes for NAP

4. T$ doesn't like negotiating NAPs for obvious reasons of this game currently being split into two spheres

5. Alpha refuses to recognize T$'s temporary FA leader

6. T$ member posted a rape video in IRC in Alpha's channel and did other bad things there previously, and Alpha believes nothing was done beyond a quick apology by the 2nd in command FA

7. T$ now claims that the member that acted as such has been disciplined

8. Alpha is claiming it has let that slide, but won't allow this to slide

As a result: Peace talks have totally broken down, and neither side likes talking to each other at this point

T$ demands: Apology, which Alpha is refusing over the fact that it doesn't believe it got a proper apology on a former incident, and white peace

Alpha demands: NAP

Alright, so here's my suggestion after analyzing this:

1. Alpha accepts the temp FA leader as temp FA leader.

2. Both sides apologize over those activities in question, and punish those responsible by doing something, and tell the other side what they will do as punishment, and have both sides approve the punishment as the correct one for such an act

3. White Peace with an Alpha-T$ NAP with a clause that involves no attacks on those treatied with T$ for 6 months.

That's just my suggestion...btw, not  gov for TKR, so do not view as a post from TKR.

 

Edit: I failed to notice that T$ has apparently already punished their member involved, so as such Alpha should just do the same exact punishment.

Edited May 9, 2016 by japan77

[Ayayay]

-snip-

What the flying !@#$ do you think you're doing? Don't try to be reasonable, there's shitposting to be had!

[japan77]

I'm trying to be reasonable, so I can actually get a chance to fight the next time a war rolls around. Mostly because IC likes blue-balling the entire TKR alliance every time tensions run high.

[Prefontaine]

I dont think you guys are actually winning at this point. More importantly I dont think you guys were ever winning. The new score change doesnt reflect that and makes it look like alpha is getting stomped while we are actually doing ok. Our infra is now so cheap it doesnt matter if we lose it, you guys still have expensive infra to lose.

 

Using infra calcuator---example

10-1500 infra 6,727,776.15------alpha

1500-2000 infra 9,055,712.09-----ts

 

Overall this entire war(if i copied and pasted correctly from war tracker)

alpha has lost 8.5 bill in infra cost

ts has lost 5.6 bill

test has lost 2.4 bill

 

Overall ratio of losses is about 1.06:1 which is basically 1 to 1. So infra wise its basically a draw for infra damage lost. I didnt run stats for last wars, but I think winning would be at least 2 to 1. Idk really maybe not.

 

War goods wise, ts is doing much much better. So good job. But this war certainty has not been a stomp which means alpha can negotiate for hopefully favorable peace terms.

 

Your alliance's average infra per city is 575.

Just under 25k Soldiers per nation.

Just under 1k tanks per nation.

Just under 100 planes per nation.

And 13 ships per nation.

 

Most of those military stats come from 2 vacation moders you have. 

 

Syndicate has 1436 average infra per city (and they also have far more smaller players than alpha had pre-war)

They have 125323 soldiers per nation.

Just over 7k tanks per nation

761 planes per nation.

They don't use ships really so whatever there.

 

"I dont think you guys are actually winning at this point. More importantly I dont think you guys were ever winning". 

 

Syndicate was winning before TEst dropped out. They were winning after TEst dropped out. They were winning yesterday. They're winning today. Barring dramatic action by your allies they will be winning tomorrow. Alpha's problem is they cannot see defeat. Alpha's problem is their leadership doesn't care about their membership.

 

You claim Alpha has lost 8.5 Billion. That's 283 Mil per member.

You claim Syndicate has lost 5.9 Billion. That's 60 Mil per member. 

 

You're not 1:1 with them. Not even close. You're 4.71:1

[Ayayay]

-snip-

In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only giant walls of text.

[Prefontaine]

In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only giant walls of text.

and math..

[Ayayay]

and math..

Less numbers and more Dakka

[Prefonteen]

Ok, So what I'm getting from this is

1. T$ offered alpha peace terms along the lines of a white peace+apology over a group of post that was clearly OOC

2. Alpha believes that this rape-incident was an elaborate setup by T$ to screw over alpha leadership through a complex tricks of backdoors

3. As such Alpha refuses to agree to issue the Apology, and pushes for NAP

4. T$ doesn't like negotiating NAPs for obvious reasons of this game currently being split into two spheres

5. Alpha refuses to recognize T$'s temporary FA leader

6. T$ member posted a rape video in IRC in Alpha's channel and did other bad things there previously, and Alpha believes nothing was done beyond a quick apology by the 2nd in command FA

7. T$ now claims that the member that acted as such has been disciplined

8. Alpha is claiming it has let that slide, but won't allow this to slide

As a result: Peace talks have totally broken down, and neither side likes talking to each other at this point

T$ demands: Apology, which Alpha is refusing over the fact that it doesn't believe it got a proper apology on a former incident, and white peace

Alpha demands: NAP

Alright, so here's my suggestion after analyzing this:

1. Alpha accepts the temp FA leader as temp FA leader.

2. Both sides apologize over those activities in question, and punish those responsible by doing something, and tell the other side what they will do as punishment, and have both sides approve the punishment as the correct one for such an act

3. White Peace with an Alpha-T$ NAP with a clause that involves no attacks on those treatied with T$ for 6 months.

That's just my suggestion...btw, not  gov for TKR, so do not view as a post from TKR.

 

Edit: I failed to notice that T$ has apparently already punished their member involved, so as such Alpha should just do the same exact punishment.

 

I do appreciate your suggestion. There are however a couple of concerns..

 

A) t$ has already issued an apology publicly (see Roy's post a bit up in this thread)

Alpha refusing Valakia doesn't really have any bearing on the peace process in the sense that it's not going to change t$' stance. We just aren't going to entertain catering to their demands and won't continue negotiations unless it's with Val in the negotiating role. It's up to Alpha whether to accept that.

C) The issue Alpha claims to have let slide is the exact same issue they refuse to let slide- it doesn't concern two seperate issues in that regard.

D) Even a NAP with provision can cause issues. There are many ways to frustrate a NAP and/or to work against an alliance while a NAP is active. We simply do not have faith in Alpha to maintain its words, and so are not inclined to sign a document like that.

 

E) The member which is most implicated in the Eumir matter is Steve (Placentica), Alpha's leader. This means that for Alpha to punish its aggrieving party, Steve would have to punish himself (or his members would have to punish Steve). I'm sure you can understand the issue there... Him, as the leader of Alpha, being complicit in this incident has simply eroded any goodwill on t$' part.

 

Other than that... most of your suggestion has been carried out on t$' part. Member disciplined, apology issued (multiple times now). We're waiting for Alpha to step up and admit its faults.

[Valakias]

There's also this idea that not signing a NAP equals that we will attack Alpha in the future. At this point, i wonder why are you being so adamant about it, and calling it your first and main reason, if you didn't ask one to Test?

 

You are not worried they can attack you in the future?

 

I would assume the alliance whose theme is basically eternal war would cause you more worries in that regard, don't you think?

 

Has any alliance in this game refused to surrender because the opposite side didn't offer them a NAP? This is beyond silly.

 

 

Edit: Grammar

Edited May 9, 2016 by Valakias

[Charles Bolivar]

 

3. White Peace with an Alpha-T$ NAP with a clause that involves no attacks on those treatied with T$ for 6 months.

 

 

6 months is an awfully long time. I haven't been at war for around that long and I am getting withdrawals. Don't know how the rest of the community will survive

[Roy Mustang]

6 months is an awfully long time. I haven't been at war for around that long and I am getting withdrawals. Don't know how the rest of the community will survive

 

We managed to get a whopping two months between wars this time - a 6 month NAP will most assuredly interfere with honoring treaty obligations in the next war, no matter what the sides are: I can't imagine us and Alpha reaching a point where we're cool fighting on the same side for a while at the present rate.

 

I'd tell you to come on back, but you'd be too high to engage any opponents anyway, sorry buddy