Incoming Spy Changes

[Buorhann]

nvm. 

 

 

I saw the post before the edit, which is ok.  Whatever.

 

I just want to say that I'm not frustrated at you, I'm frustrated with constant changes and the sudden "HEY WE'RE DOING THIS NOW" bit that's going on.  As a matter of fact, I appreciate that you're taking time to reply to all of us that are concerned with what's going on.  I really do, so thank you for that.  I see this as a healthy argument to have, as odd as that sounds.

 

 

Overall, I shouldn't be overly worried about the change.  People who invested in spies will get a large lump sum of cash and whatever else.  The alliance I'm in is highly coordinated, so we'll benefit greatly from this - especially since the spy range will be gone.  Spy ops will be highly used during war still and it'll be abused eventually, especially from those with large sums of income in their nation.

 

I am, like previously stated, concerned with the internal dev group and the constant changes to the game.  Changes are fine, as long as there's plenty of time to give the playerbase a heads up.  Similar to how other games release out patch notes and give a week or two before they implement them.  I do not like the 24 hour SURPRISE aspect.

 

But, honestly?  I'd prefer a soft cap over a hard cap.  Just make any number of spies over 50 cost more to train and upkeep.  I just hate the idea of hard caps, it's very limiting.

[Phiney]

I saw the post before the edit, which is ok.  Whatever.

 

I just want to say that I'm not frustrated at you, I'm frustrated with constant changes and the sudden "HEY WE'RE DOING THIS NOW" bit that's going on.  As a matter of fact, I appreciate that you're taking time to reply to all of us that are concerned with what's going on.  I really do, so thank you for that.  I see this as a healthy argument to have, as odd as that sounds.

 

 

Overall, I shouldn't be overly worried about the change.  People who invested in spies will get a large lump sum of cash and whatever else.  The alliance I'm in is highly coordinated, so we'll benefit greatly from this - especially since the spy range will be gone.  Spy ops will be highly used during war still and it'll be abused eventually, especially from those with large sums of income in their nation.

 

I am, like previously stated, concerned with the internal dev group and the constant changes to the game.  Changes are fine, as long as there's plenty of time to give the playerbase a heads up.  Similar to how other games release out patch notes and give a week or two before they implement them.  I do not like the 24 hour SURPRISE aspect.

 

But, honestly?  I'd prefer a soft cap over a hard cap.  Just make any number of spies over 50 cost more to train and upkeep.  I just hate the idea of hard caps, it's very limiting.

 

Thanks, but I'd also like to say that it was the dev group that convinced Sheepy it was a good idea to give any sort of warning about changes like this, we really are trying to bring about positive changes for the game with as little bias and as good discussion as possible. 

[kalev60]

I like the cap personally. It could end up like tech in... another game that a lot of us are familiar with. You used to not have to have a !@#$-ton of tech but nowadays you need a !@#$ load. Then you have people who have so much tech that it's impossible to stop them. That could happen in this game, an alliance that has a ton of spies, and then they can just spy away other people who are trying to make more spies and hold a monopoly on spies.

 

I don't like how the spy range is going away. It's not fair that I can spy on a new nation, because they don't have enough money to afford spies.

That will happen with the update too, only difference will be that individual spy numbers will be all the same while the number of alliance or  coalition members will be different and the dynamic will sent in the more nations your side has the more likely you'll will. That will lead to one stable hegemoney forming keeping all others down, either giving over-powering odds to one side in only spies or in other facets of warfare, i don't know, but game will stagnate and the oppressed will lose interest in losing quite quick.

[LordRahl2]

That will happen with the update too, only difference will be that individual spy numbers will be all the same while the number of alliance or  coalition members will be different and the dynamic will sent in the more nations your side has the more likely you'll will. That will lead to one stable hegemoney forming keeping all others down, either giving over-powering odds to one side in only spies or in other facets of warfare, i don't know, but game will stagnate and the oppressed will lose interest in losing quite quick.

 

Possible.  it might also stagnate into a bi-polar world where neither side attacks another.  This seems a bit more likely to me but your concept is viable.

[Phiney]

To everyone making and posing in these hilarious joke suggestion threads, are you really that afraid of change that it is inconceivable to you for one section of the game (and a section that was added quite late in the beta) to be different to the rest of the game? Does everything really have to work in exactly the same way? Or are you just unwilling to try something different. Yes, we have no actual evidence this will work out well and be as we hope it will, but a lot of thought has indeed gone into it only time will tell if it is a success or not. 

[LordRahl2]

To everyone making and posing in these hilarious joke suggestion threads, are you really that afraid of change that it is inconceivable to you for one section of the game (and a section that was added quite late in the beta) to be different to the rest of the game? Does everything really have to work in exactly the same way? Or are you just unwilling to try something different. Yes, we have no actual evidence this will work out well and be as we hope it will, but a lot of thought has indeed gone into it only time will tell if it is a success or not. 

 

See, your assumption that those ideas are 'jokes' is invalid at least from some of us plebes.  As a BGE maybe you can tell us how we are in error.  After all you have a ton of experience in posting only constructive replies amongst experts.  Your input would be invaluable.  However, be warned, the mods may give you warnings for such postings in public.

 

Maybe you are afraid of ideas that are different and are unwilling to consider something different?  But we are attempting to put thought into it and provide actual 'evidence'.

[Rozalia]

To everyone making and posing in these hilarious joke suggestion threads, are you really that afraid of change that it is inconceivable to you for one section of the game (and a section that was added quite late in the beta) to be different to the rest of the game? Does everything really have to work in exactly the same way? Or are you just unwilling to try something different. Yes, we have no actual evidence this will work out well and be as we hope it will, but a lot of thought has indeed gone into it only time will tell if it is a success or not. 

 

Is your "side" (your word not mine) so afraid that it has to hide behind a circle jerk joke talk of Illuminati, and to attempt to summarize the heavy resistance to this as "Rahl is butthurt lol".

A big change a lot of people don't like is brought in with 24 hours to discuss it which we know is more of formality to later claim the high ground then anything else. How could we not be angry at it? Why even waste our time with this 24 hours nonsense? Our words clearly don't matter anyway as all the discussion with you shining beacons of hope has already been done. 

 

To add to that. It has been claimed the dev group represents the player-ship, but clearly they do not if there is such heavy resistance to it. Doesn't seem like it is fit for purpose. 

[Phiney]

Is your "side" (your word not mine) so afraid that it has to hide behind a circle jerk joke talk of Illuminati, and to attempt to summarize the heavy resistance to this as "Rahl is butthurt lol".

A big change a lot of people don't like is brought in with 24 hours to discuss it which we know is more of formality to later claim the high ground then anything else. How could we not be angry at it? Why even waste our time with this 24 hours nonsense? Our words clearly don't matter anyway as all the discussion with you shining beacons of hope has already been done. 

 

To add to that. It has been claimed the dev group represents the player-ship, but clearly they do not if there is such heavy resistance to it. Doesn't seem like it is fit for purpose. 

 

I have no idea what you are talking about. I haven't seen any circle jerk talk of Illuminati or "rahl is butthurt lol" stuff from any of the people that have access to the dev forum. For all the talk about how the dev forum access people are only a very minute part of the community, there really only seems to be 10 or so people here disagreeing with the change. 

[PigInZen]

I could run a poll over at the Mensa HQ forums and provide you with some concrete numbers on the spy change.  In fact, I wish that most alliances would do just that.  

[Rozalia]

I have no idea what you are talking about. I haven't seen any circle jerk talk of Illuminati or "rahl is butthurt lol" stuff from any of the people that have access to the dev forum. For all the talk about how the dev forum access people are only a very minute part of the community, there really only seems to be 10 or so people here disagreeing with the change. 

 

So people haven't downplayed it as just being Rahl/others being "butthurt", okay.

Only just 10 or so people complaining compared to those in favour which is in the 100s I assume.

[Phiney]

I could run a poll over at the Mensa HQ forums and provide you with some concrete numbers on the spy change.  In fact, I wish that most alliances would do just that.  

 

Imagine if everything that changed ran a poll before it changed. Imagine if FB ran a poll before it changed its layout, or youtube. The resounding response would be DO NOT CHANGE. That is why decisions on game changes are not made by poll, everything would always stay the same. 

[Phiney]

So people haven't downplayed it as just being Rahl/others being "butthurt", okay.

Only just 10 or so people complaining compared to those in favour which is in the 100s I assume.

 

I never said there were hundreds in favour at all, I simply am protesting against your claim of "such a heavy resistance" when really its just a few people making a lot of noise. 

[PigInZen]

Imagine if everything that changed ran a poll before it changed. Imagine if FB ran a poll before it changed its layout, or youtube. The resounding response would be DO NOT CHANGE. That is why decisions on game changes are not made by poll, everything would always stay the same. 

 

This might give you some valuable information about the player base, however.

[Rozalia]

I never said there were hundreds in favour at all, I simply am protesting against your claim of "such a heavy resistance" when really its just a few people making a lot of noise. 

 

So if a number of people that is likely double of those in favour is meager, then what is the group half it's size? Sounds like it'd be so small to the point of irrelevance to me.

[Phiney]

So if a number of people that is likely double of those in favour is meager, then what is the group half it's size? Sounds like it'd be so small to the point of irrelevance to me.

 

I know I shouldnt be getting into a numbers fight, as really the numbers make absolutely no difference, as its the value of the people advising that matters to sheepy I presume, but I count 10 in favour on the dev forum, and a few here too.

[Rozalia]

I know I shouldnt be getting into a numbers fight, as really the numbers make absolutely no difference, as its the value of the people advising that matters to sheepy I presume, but I count 10 in favour on the dev forum, and a few here too.

 

Oh but of course how I could I make such a blunder. I forgot that the opinion of guys like you is worth so much more then the rest of us. 

[LordRahl2]

Imagine if everything that changed ran a poll before it changed. Imagine if FB ran a poll before it changed its layout, or youtube. The resounding response would be DO NOT CHANGE. That is why decisions on game changes are not made by poll, everything would always stay the same. 

 

Imagine it.  Lets say that Sheepy had an idea that was at lest questionable.  As a way out there idea lets say he thought about adding T-Rexs to the game in some way.  Impossible I know.  Then lets suppose that he subjected this to a community vote and a large majority voted against such an idea.  Perhaps the bad idea would not be added.  Undoubtedly the BGE would have blocked such an idea from coming to an actual vote.  However in this hypothetical the community would have selected the optimum solution without a need for a secret group.

 

As you know this is hypothetical since Sheepy has never considered adding T-Rexs to the game.

 

Maybe there is something to the 'do not change' crowd for games out of beta.

Edited July 11, 2015 by LordRahl2

[Kadin]

I know I shouldnt be getting into a numbers fight, as really the numbers make absolutely no difference, as its the value of the people advising that matters to sheepy I presume, but I count 10 in favour on the dev forum, and a few here too.

Piss off. You aren't as amazing as you think you are.

[Guest]

Imagine it. Lets say that Sheepy had an idea that was at lest questionable. As a way out there idea lets say he thought about adding T-Rexs to the game in some way. Impossible I know. Then lets suppose that he subjected this to a community vote and a large majority voted against such an idea. Perhaps the bad idea would not be added. Undoubtedly the BGE would have blocked such an idea from coming to an actual vote. However in this hypothetical the community would have selected the optimum solution without a need for a secret group.

 

As you know this is hypothetical since Sheepy has never considered adding T-Rexs to the game.

Or has he?

[Conroy]

I personally preferred the spy system prior to the spy ranges, it allowed for nations to separate themselves, plan and build in a unique way. Did this make the playing field somewhat unfair? Sure, but it was nothing drastic from what I saw and life's not fair, so why should every aspect of this game be? A little imbalance is needed or everything becomes too structured with no diversity. With this new update it will be the norm for everyone to have 50 spies for defense and only use them offensively in war. With "72% success odds in a 50 vs 50 simulation at the maximum caution level" I wouldn't use them in a non-war scenario, that's about 1/4 chance that I will fail wasting max covert money and then being countered if identified losing even more. This whole update will make the entire spy system bland. Then to top it all off alliances that built large spies forces like Vanguard, Mensa and BoC have now lost a significant amount of power that helped balance the strength of the top 10 AA's. So congrats your covert op. against the spy system was successful, you've killed it, I'm done with it. 

Edited July 11, 2015 by Conroy

[Rozalia]

Piss off. You aren't as amazing as you think you are.

 

<Phiney> brilliant, thanks for that

<Estelle> Well you've already decided that our opinion doesn't matter because you are of much higher quality than us, so what difference does it make?

<Phiney> have I

<Phiney> show me where I said that

<Rozalia> Come on Phiney really now?

<Phiney> ?

<Estelle> right here bb http://politicsandwar.com/forums/index.php?/topic/7323-incoming-spy-changes/page-7#entry118430

<Rozalia> You said it clear as day

<Estelle> i used your own words

<Phiney> ?

<Rozalia> You're not alone in that either of course

<Phiney> what

<Phiney> where

<Rozalia> Oh boy

<Phiney> there is some real misinterpreting going on here

<Estelle> LOL

<Rozalia> ^

<Phiney> Sheepy made a dev group specifically to advise him on things

<Phiney> so he could get quote "quality discussion"

<Phiney> I am not deciding anything

<Estelle> Right, right, and you let it get to your head.

<Estelle> It's pretty obvious

<Phiney> hahahaha

<Phiney> yeah

<Phiney> sure

<Rozalia> I know I shouldnt be getting into a numbers fight, as really the numbers make absolutely no difference, as its the value of the people advising that matters to sheepy I presume, but I count 10 in favour on the dev forum, and a few here too.

<Phiney> yes this is what I said

<Phiney> and this is a direct sheepy quote

<Phiney>  as well as giving me a source of high quality feedback to suggestions and changes.

<Phiney> if sheepy wanted to do a poll on numbers for every change

<Phiney> he would do

<Phiney> im not saying I am better than anyone else

<Estelle> That's exactly what you're saying

<Phiney> im saying sheepy values quality over quantity

<Estelle> you didn't even say anything about the quality of posts or the quality of ideas

<Estelle> you said the quality of PEOPLE

<Henri> Phiney

<Henri> If I agree with Estelle

<Estelle> Well, value

<Henri> You know you're wrong.

<Phiney> PEOPLE he picked because of the quality of their posts

<Phiney> jesus christ

*** Codonian[uS] has quit (Ping timeout)

<Rozalia> So why waste our time Phiney with this talk of you not saying your posts are much more high quality?

<Phiney> I'm sorry I was providing useful suggestion to the community

<Phiney> is that better?

<Rozalia> You say it, then deny it, then admit to it. Which is it?

<Rozalia> No you can have your opinion

<Eumirbago> join The Syndicate

<Phiney> you guys are hilarious

<Rampage> Omg

<Rozalia> It is when you talk of your opinion being worth so much more that there is a problem

<Rampage> Are you guys still arguing like 4 hours later

<Phiney> Estelle> Well you've already decided that our opinion doesn't matter

<Phiney> completely fabricated

<Phiney> yeah what the !@#$ am I doing awake

<Rampage> Phiney go sleep

<Phiney> I will, chow

<Rampage> You're arguing with Kadin

<Rampage> Bruh cmon

<Phiney> fair

<Rozalia> And we're back to denying it.

*** Phiney has quit (Quit: Leaving)

<Estelle> huh

<Estelle> So apparently the fact that I am who I am makes a difference when it comes to the validity of my arguments.

<Rampage> Yes

<Rampage> Absolutely

<Rampage> You're Kadim

<Rampage> Kadin*

<Rozalia> The irony.

 

People who can't even keep their opinions straight give the highest quality advice it seems.

[Dr Rush]

If your going to do this, just remove spies entirely. 50 spies vs 50 spies is worthless. 

[Caecus]

If your going to do this, just remove spies entirely. 50 spies vs 50 spies is worthless. 

 

And please refund my money too, I have nuclear weapons to build and mercilessly launch at people with no fear of consequences. 

[Phiney]

I've come back on as its really irked me that my character is being shat on.

 

I see from your point of view how it may have seemed like I was saying the dev teams opinion matters more but that's really not what I intended at all. I meant when making game decisions, from what I have heard from sheepy it seems he values qualitative discussion over quantatitive polling.

 

I apologise if it came across as a superiority complex and reading over it I can see how it could be read that way but that was not the intended output at all.

 

P.s. it's 2.30am and this discussion has been going on for 4 hours as I've been (in my head at least) trying to bridge the gap a bit between the dev forum people and the rest by explaining the discussions that have been going on so please excuse the post coming across badly.

Edited July 11, 2015 by Phiney

[Wayne]

Spies in this game are pretty shitty anyway.  One of the most importmant aspects of being a spy is information gathering.  Yet I can already see pretty much all the information I need.  I can see how much of an army you have standing and I can work out your daily build and your overall maximum build.  I can also see how you have built your cities and what you produce, which means I can work out how much money and resources you produce a day.  The only thing I can't see is how much cash and resources are sitting on the account.  At the moment all a spy does in this game is defend against other spies and protect missles and/or nukes.  I just feel like spies could be utilized much better.  The whole spy system seems very lazy.