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Game Development Discussion: Generals


KindaEpicMoah
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13 minutes ago, im317 said:

traits, tying in projects, aging, effect on score(NS)

Interesting. I would look forward to play testing this if it gets that far.  One thing that must never be part of it: allowing spies to assassinate generals.  Not that it doesn't happen in real life, but it would become exceedingly frustrating to put all the time and effort into developing a general, only to have some person kill him/her simply they are bored and looking to screw with people because they can.  It was a major problem in CN back in the day.

Edited by George Clooney
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14 minutes ago, Hwan said:

So all of that for like a 5% boost in minimum roll? 

10% boost to the minimum roll = a 7.15% average army value increase before you factor in traits/perks. While it may seem like a very small buff for such a large time/resource commitment, because of the all-or-nothing nature of superiorities, having that boost could very well guarantee you the win in a war you would've otherwise lost. 

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22 minutes ago, KindaEpicMoah said:

10% boost to the minimum roll = a 7.15% average army value increase before you factor in traits/perks. While it may seem like a very small buff for such a large time/resource commitment, because of the all-or-nothing nature of superiorities, having that boost could very well guarantee you the win in a war you would've otherwise lost. 

10% in the scenario a guy has level 10 while the other didn't even bother to get the free one. Realistically the difference is gonna be like level 3 vs 8 at best.
The traits sound like an RNG nightmare, since only like 1 in 4 actually help combat (and even then with very small bonuses), not to mention the proposed small general lifespan and the chance of kicking the bucket even earlier.
Superiorities aren't really all-or-nothing, you can get at least a PV with like half the military nowadays, and having something of a 3% bonus chance to get it won't do too much to help.
Overall, as-is, this is just convoluted feature bloat.

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Honestly sounds like it could be a lot of fun, especially with the fact generals can be put into reserve.

A few questions though, if you had all 3 generals in reserve could you take them all out at once or is the 1 day cooldown universal and not general specific.

Additionally, the "Zombification" perk, how does that function if you revive a General who died/retired of old age? Will said general reset their age timer, just instantly die the next turn or just not be a valid target. (because if it only works on specifically generals who died in combat it becomes a tad less useful being tier 5)

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On 9/5/2023 at 1:59 AM, Hwan said:

10% in the scenario a guy has level 10 while the other didn't even bother to get the free one. Realistically the difference is gonna be like level 3 vs 8 at best.
The traits sound like an RNG nightmare, since only like 1 in 4 actually help combat (and even then with very small bonuses), not to mention the proposed small general lifespan and the chance of kicking the bucket even earlier.
Superiorities aren't really all-or-nothing, you can get at least a PV with like half the military nowadays, and having something of a 3% bonus chance to get it won't do too much to help.
Overall, as-is, this is just convoluted feature bloat.

That's true, but even in cases where both you and your opponent have level 10 generals, both of you will still deal more casualties compared to if you had no generals (since they're determined entirely by your rolls and not your rolls in relation to the enemy's rolls like battle results are). 150 days is fairly long all things considered: there's enough time to max out a general, then fight one to two alliance wars before retirement (depending on NAP length and other variables of course).

Sure, it's much easier to break superiorities now, but there's still an opportunity cost of using those MAPs on a PV attack, regardless of what your military level is in that theater. 

The way that traits are obtained is a little reliant on RNG, I agree, but that is in part to create a cost for people who seek those bonuses. There are still ways to mitigate that RNG, and at the end of the day, any trait is still a positive for you. 

And yes, I will admit that this was intentionally kept weaker in order to mitigate potential balancing issues. If we determine that the base bonus or the traits are too weak for their cost and Generals are being used less than expected, then we'd be happy to revisit either/both and adjust the values as necessary.

 

18 hours ago, Zevari said:

Honestly sounds like it could be a lot of fun, especially with the fact generals can be put into reserve.

A few questions though, if you had all 3 generals in reserve could you take them all out at once or is the 1 day cooldown universal and not general specific.

Additionally, the "Zombification" perk, how does that function if you revive a General who died/retired of old age? Will said general reset their age timer, just instantly die the next turn or just not be a valid target. (because if it only works on specifically generals who died in combat it becomes a tad less useful being tier 5)

Thank you for pointing this out! I actually revised what I initially had in mind, which was to make the cooldown universal rather than General specific, but after you brought it up, I realized that a more intuitive way of going about it would be to attach the cooldown to the specific army group, and to add some caveats to the cooldown restriction (so you can replace a general if they die or retire without needing to wait out a cooldown). 

As for the perk, it only works specifically for those who die in combat, since there's another perk that extends the retirement date by a month or so. Less useful, yes, but if you have a good general that dies and no backup general, it's still useful. 

 

15 hours ago, The Titan said:

Don't have level 3 general be 1 credit

Other than that, this is beautiful 

If you're concerned about this being P2W: the cost of the general being 1 credit means that a city 50 (who's level 2 general (since 1 credit gets you a level 2 general) would cost roughly $10m at current market prices) would lose about $20m in doing so while gaining a 0.7% advantage over someone who spent $10m for the level 2 general. It's fairly underwhelming, and not something I'd imagine many people would do. Though if it's too much of an issue, I wouldn't be opposed to removing it. 

 

12 hours ago, Arthur Wellington said:

Xp gaining would benefit raiders mostly, is that the intent?

To the former part: yes but actually no. Raiders will naturally use the bonus the most since they war the most, but they are the most likely to lose a general before a general reaches its retirement date. Additionally, since attacks on people with low military give only 1 XP, raiders would need to constantly be fighting high military people to grind XP through war, which again, put's them at the most risk of having their generals killed, so I'd say that's a fair tradeoff. 

 

11 hours ago, Malakai said:

If we do this, then we need to add a category under the spy ops for assassination.

I agree with what was said previously that generals being able to be assassinated by spies would make using generals very risky and likely not worthwhile since generals can cost upwards of $50m for the high city counts while spy costs remain constant regardless of city count. 

 

On 9/4/2023 at 7:59 PM, AlexiosKomnenos said:

I like the idea, but I don’t think generals should add score 

On 9/4/2023 at 8:03 PM, Horsecock said:

You had me before you said generals add score. That needs gone, then it's a great system.

I'd be fine with revising the score section if enough people think that its current score system is an issue. I agree that it could use some tweaks since each general currently adds more % score than it adds % army army value.   

Edited by KindaEpicMoah
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On 9/4/2023 at 8:34 PM, KindaEpicMoah said:

providing a +10% modifier, changing the lowest possible roll from 40% to 50%. 
 

Levels and Experience 

With each level a general has, the % of the lowest value will increase by 1%. However, as a general levels up, they will require more XP to get to the next level. To max out a general, they’ll need 3000 XP points.

Generals will become Level 1 at 100 points, Level 2 at 150 points, Level 3 at 250 points, Level 4 at 400 points, Level 5 at 600 points, Level 6 at 850 points, Level 7 at 1150 points, Level 8 at 1700 points, Level 9 at 2300 points, and Level 10 at 3000 points.

Love this idea, but my very first thought is that a 20% potential buff to all attack rolls is way too strong. On a d10 system that's +2 to every roll, or +4 in a d20 system. That's way too strong and probably needs to be cut in half. Just remove the starting 10% buff and have it be based purely on the 1% per level for a max of 10% imo.

On 9/4/2023 at 8:34 PM, KindaEpicMoah said:

Traits

The easiest way to think of traits are perks for individual generals that randomly develop after a general reaches level 8.

  • There is a 2% chance from simulated battles/3% chance from any war attack of a general developing a trait at level 8, a 4%/6% chance of a general developing a trait at level 9, and 8%/12% chance of a general developing a trait at level 10.
  • The chance of a general developing a trait is reduced to 0 for war attacks if a nation’s opponent has under half their military.

There are two tiers of traits: tier 1 traits and tier 2 traits.

  • Each tier provides an additional score modifier (see the score section).
  • Tier 2 traits also decrease the effectiveness of the general by 25% (reduced to +0.75% from each level instead of +1%).

Once a general triggers the event to obtain a trait, players will get an event that will allow them to choose whether they want to develop a trait for that general or not. The event will also tell them whether it is a tier 1 or tier 2 trait.

Traits can be rerolled once per general with a credit. Credit resets will choose any tier 1 or tier 2 perk regardless of what the previous trait is.

To prevent their generals from dying, nations can move their generals from active to reserve, though this also removes the bonus from the units they were assigned to. There is a 1 day cooldown between moving a general to reserve and moving them back to active duty.

Nations can also discharge their general if they are not active, which will get rid of that general and open up a space for a new general.

A list of traits can be found here.

Honest opinion: This piece of the idea makes it way too complex. Just cut this entire section imo or tack it on as a much later addition after playtesting of generals as a feature can occur.

 

On 9/4/2023 at 8:34 PM, KindaEpicMoah said:

At first, nations will be able to have up to 3 generals at a time, though they can increase this to 6 through a project unlock.

General suggestion to reduce these numbers to force player choice. 3 generals basically just means you constantly have generals assigned to all three pieces of your military, 6 seems superfluous especially if they add score. Maybe 1 general and projects or perks can unlock an additional general. Which will inevitably go air->ground->navy in priority anyway almost always but at least it limits you to making that choice.

 

On 9/4/2023 at 8:34 PM, KindaEpicMoah said:

A list of related projects and perks can be found here.

 

Almost all of these need to be reworked for balance and intention imo. You just spent a paragraph talking about consumption increases but have a ton of stuff on this list regarding reduced cost/upkeep on things. Pick a lane and don't worsen the problem if you've identified one.

I would also echo others that generals probably shouldn't add score, or if they do then they should add a minimal static number like projects do.

 

Overall a cool idea, needs some refinement on the hard numbers but I like the concept a lot. Cool stuff! 

Edited by Roberts
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Quote

Ship Capturing: Steal 20% of the enemy ships that are destroyed in offensive naval battles

Does limit on ships set by the number drydock apply or could this take a person over that limit? if so for how long? until the generals death?

Edited by Galerion
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On 9/7/2023 at 11:47 AM, Roberts said:

Love this idea, but my very first thought is that a 20% potential buff to all attack rolls is way too strong. On a d10 system that's +2 to every roll, or +4 in a d20 system. That's way too strong and probably needs to be cut in half. Just remove the starting 10% buff and have it be based purely on the 1% per level for a max of 10% imo.

That's how it currently is. Each general gives you 1% and at most the bonus is 10%.

 

On 9/7/2023 at 11:47 AM, Roberts said:

Honest opinion: This piece of the idea makes it way too complex. Just cut this entire section imo or tack it on as a much later addition after playtesting of generals as a feature can occur.

From my perspective, the traits give more variety and depth to a feature that initially fairly shallow. I can understand that it may seem difficult to grasp for a new player, but this content mainly geared towards the mid/late game (though it is accessible for people at every stage of the game). I can imagine that most low tier players would opt to not utilize generals since their tier is almost never the one that determines the outcome of alliance wars. It'd make more sense economically to save that money for growth in the early game, while at the mid/late game it becomes more relevant as you become more relevant.

And for non-new players who might be deterred by its complexity: it is still fairly accessible since the random nature of the development of traits takes some of the choice out of the hands of the player, making this element of the mechanic both opt-in and low effort at the entry level. However, for those players who are more knowledgeable and seek to min-max the mechanic, there are more opportunities to do so, giving players the choice in what they want to pursue.

 

On 9/7/2023 at 11:47 AM, Roberts said:

General suggestion to reduce these numbers to force player choice. 3 generals basically just means you constantly have generals assigned to all three pieces of your military, 6 seems superfluous especially if they add score. Maybe 1 general and projects or perks can unlock an additional general. Which will inevitably go air->ground->navy in priority anyway almost always but at least it limits you to making that choice.

Regarding reducing the amount of generals a player can have: while I do think that it is an interesting idea to limit players to force them to make choices, it also likely means that (as you've mentioned), most would be funneled into focusing air since air still dominates the meta. Additionally, only being able to maintain one general would greatly reduce the amount of resources consumed by the mechanic while also making it more punishing to lose a general mid-war. The point of having multiple generals is to provide a cushion in the event that you lose one in a battle. 

 

On 9/7/2023 at 11:47 AM, Roberts said:

Almost all of these need to be reworked for balance and intention imo. You just spent a paragraph talking about consumption increases but have a ton of stuff on this list regarding reduced cost/upkeep on things. Pick a lane and don't worsen the problem if you've identified one.

All of the projects and perks either don't change consumption or increase consumption, and there are two traits for each army category that decrease consumption slightly (that are largely outweighed by the cost of the projects along with the perks that increase consumption).

 

On 9/7/2023 at 11:47 AM, Roberts said:

I would also echo others that generals probably shouldn't add score, or if they do then they should add a minimal static number like projects do.

Since generals add a buff that is a % modifier to your military, it made more sense to the design team to have it dynamically scale with how much military one has to prevent them from being a burden on people with no military, but I know that the formula itself is tricky to figure out and has a lot of moving parts. I'm not sure whether a static formula that will either overweigh it when you're zeroed or underweigh it when you're maxed would be preferable though (I'm fine with either one, I'm just saying that from my point of view, it'd make more sense balancing wise to keep it dynamic). 

 

On 9/7/2023 at 11:47 AM, Roberts said:

Overall a cool idea, needs some refinement on the hard numbers but I like the concept a lot. Cool stuff

Thank you! 

 

On 9/9/2023 at 2:00 AM, Galerion said:

Does limit on ships set by the number drydock apply or could this take a person over that limit? if so for how long? until the generals death?

Because of how ship kills/losses work, it's impossible (as far as I can tell) to make this happen. Either way, you wouldn't be able to go over your limit. 

 

 

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 9/11/2023 at 10:58 PM, KindaEpicMoah said:

Because of how ship kills/losses work, it's impossible (as far as I can tell) to make this happen.

Playing with the simulator, 400 ships vs 50 would net you 2-3 ships more than your losses, so if the limit had not applied it would be feasible.

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  • 3 months later...

From what I understand, generals only modify the low end of casualties/success, they don't actually add more military power to your nation like a troop does. That's not the kind of benefit that should add score to your nation. 

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