[ROH] Carthago's Guide For Dummies: Finance 101

[darkblade]

12 minutes ago, SleepingNinja said:

I think you've had enough internet for one day. This is not even close to emotional manipulation. Leave it to a gen Z SJW to go full well SJW. I told you that I was pointing out a double standard, which is true. The focus on that part of the post was moreso asking why at the creation of said bank there wasn't an active participant from HS and OWR present or if there even was one at some point. You went full emotional posting accusing me of emotional manipulation and attacking my ability to read after I accused you of not fully reading my own post(contextually different), which at this point you've still failed to comprehend the point of what I brought up. I think it's better for you if you go take a break before replying again when your in a more calm place in your mind. I would be much happier to engage you in meaningful discussion on the rest of my post rather than you trying to take the focus off of the actual in game points I made. 

 Uh oh, looks like a millennial is getting triggered because I called them out. I'm so scared. According to Daveth's post, he was looking for House Stark to send someone to help out TF, and they offered to send a low gov Econ to help out. And when your argument is that Krampus was busy with college and then go on a rant about how House Stark doesn't understand how much time and money people spend to go to college as your argument, that is emotional manipulation 101, and I'm not even a psychologist. And when you try to call Darth out for using IRL, the difference between him and Krampus is that he focused on IRL, not that hard to understand. I find it funny that you're saying I should calm down when you're malding pretty hard. Maybe you should calm down, play some Trounced, maybe make some memes, and then come back to me when you're ready.

Edited June 12, 2023 by darkblade

[SleepingNinja]

2 hours ago, darkblade said:

 Uh oh, looks like a millennial is getting triggered because I called them out. I'm so scared. According to Daveth's post, he was looking for House Stark to send someone to help out TF, and they offered to send a low gov Econ to help out. And when your argument is that Krampus was busy with college and then go on a rant about how House Stark doesn't understand how much time and money people spend to go to college as your argument, that is emotional manipulation 101, and I'm not even a psychologist. And when you try to call Darth out for using IRL, the difference between him and Krampus is that he focused on IRL, not that hard to understand. I find it funny that you're saying I should calm down when you're malding pretty hard. Maybe you should calm down, play some Trounced, maybe make some memes, and then come back to me when you're ready.

Ataxia posted a reply to the ROH, I debated his points. Your hyper focusing on 2 sentences of the middle of my post and making this discussion into an OOC thing. That was not even close to the main part of my post. Also despite Daveth sharing an image showing WE approached THEM about getting HS econ involved less then a few minute's later your publicly lying to everyone that reads this thread that it was somehow the other way around. Edit: this no longer applies as darkblade corrected himself with his own edit.

Also if I wanted a parrot I'd buy one and teach it to mimic myself in a much more amusing manner, not that this isn't amusing. Since clearly you have no intention to actually contribute to the discussion and are more interested in tarnishing myself with accusations of OOC I don't believe there's any reason to engage any further. I didn't say those things about taking a break to be condescending nor was it meant to be insulting, I was giving genuine advice as it's obvious those 2 sentences you've taken issue with hit a nerve which clearly was not my intention as I was never replying to you in the first place. 

Finally as I mentioned before I decided to engage to make things more interesting and because I don't believe in HS's CB but I think there's good discussion to be had. Telling me I'm malding because I decided to engage on the forums and help bring some life to the game is just not correct. And since you started replying I've only defended myself from your frankly disgusting claims. I'd also point out that you just agreed with Daveth after about crossing a line and now your back peddling with me a post later? You know what, keep going please I suppose this is one way of entertainment for the forums too although I won't be engaging any further unless you can keep it IC.

Edited June 12, 2023 by SleepingNinja

[Uriah 'the Fox']

1 hour ago, SleepingNinja said:

I think you've had enough internet for one day. This is not even close to emotional manipulation. Leave it to a gen Z SJW to go full well SJW.

Ah yes, Darkblade, famously an SJW

[Darth Revan]

 

House Stark's Guide for Dummies: Foreign Affairs 101 "How not to get rolled"

 

1. Don't renege on deals made with parties outside of your alliance is a fairly simple one to start.  
 

On 6/10/2023 at 8:09 PM, evilpiggyfoofoo said:

Now, I know when HS reads this post, they're going to say "Ok even though the math checks out, Krampus said he would pay $8B over 8 months". A couple things on the screenshot:

You made not one, but two offers to us for similar amounts of money (points 41, 43, and 45).  This sum did not magically spawn into existence by us.   You turned it into reality.  If all of this information was available to you maybe, you know... don't make promises you can't keep or throw out, in your opinions, absurd valuations? 

2. If you go back on a deal, be consistent with your reasons or just give actual reasons for doing so. 

After going back on a deal your official alliance representatives proposed to us, you gave no reasonable explanations for doing so (points 49 and 80).  No, restating that we would only get our IPO price is not a reason.   There was not one offer to open up the books, explain the state of the business, or show us that the offer you previously made was not feasible.  You gave us no reasons to trust you, and we're just supposed to accept at face value a simple statement with no goodwill? 

3. Put exactly what you mean in writing and not leave things to be inferred.

On 6/10/2023 at 8:09 PM, evilpiggyfoofoo said:

Krampus said "I will get back to you" as in ok he will double check the math, talk to the rest of govt, and finalize the offer when he's free 

Wow, that is a lot there that he didn't say!  I'm sure it would have been so difficult to just actually say that.  

4. Release documents at the source of a dispute before there is escalation. 

 

On 6/10/2023 at 8:09 PM, evilpiggyfoofoo said:

• Latest stock prices are never a reflection of the true value of an investment
• Let's look to basic finance in the real world: If a company fire sales 50% of their stocks today, the stock market would crash and the individual would get much less than the price they expect:
  • For example, when Tesla’s intrinsic value was low but stock price was stupidly high at $1,200; if Elon wanted to cash out for 50% of Tesla’s stock, he wouldn’t get the price of $1,200 per share, he would end up with a lot less
  • If Elon was forced to liquidate Tesla which had like barely any assets compared to the market cap, he would end up with $12 per share.
• Now back to PnW, The Foundation itself doesn’t have a valuation of $16 billion (HS claims their 33% shares + half of defunct OWR shares gives them $8 billion)
  • Look at the spreadsheet, when accounting for all gains and losses and excluding outstanding loans, there is currently $4,571,483,510.89 in available equity (much less than $16B) to stakeholders. If HS was to sell their equity rather than accept CTO's offer of $2.6B, they would only get $2,285,741,755.45.
• So House Stark wants to go down the liquidation route? Ok, the bank has ~$4.5B in available liquidity and $4.4B in outstanding loans
  • In the bull case: Assuming all loans are sold at market value and no one defaults, HS would get half of the amount ($4,523,976,611.26) they feel entitled to
  • In the base case: Loans are sold for cents on the dollar and defaults happen because debtors see a closing bank and make a run, HS would be getting likely ~3B

I am glad you finally got around to releasing this information!  You preferred to stonewall us and refused to share any relevant data with us (point 71).  Pretty impossible to arrive at any realistic figure when there is no relevant information available.  If Krampus was straight with us from the start, this would not have come to this point and the actual negotiated sum would be based in reality. You had access to the data this entire time and we didn't, we went by what your official alliance representatives shared with us.  

5. Don't delete servers (evidence) to restart negotiations

On 6/10/2023 at 8:09 PM, evilpiggyfoofoo said:

Krampus and Jax then made a few different offers to HS which fell apart, followed by months of ghosting. Multiple attempts to reach out and reconnect on a fairer price were reached (check section on "CTO attempts at reaching a settlement")

Didn't work out the way you intended huh?  Deleting a server is such an olive branch! 

6.  Negotiations are defined as discussion aimed at reaching an agreement. 

You and I must have a very different definition from "fairer prices" and "absurd valuations".  If there is a chasm between 8B and 2.6B the only fair result is the one you proposed from the beginning?  We both understood each other's positions towards the end of the discussions.  Even after Krampus made a deal and you went back on it, I attempted outreach for a potential solution and no progress was made (point 78).

7.  Don't perform cruel and unusual punishment

On 6/9/2023 at 8:04 PM, Darth Revan said:

The fact that I had to dig up my forum account is a far worse CB. 

Winter is here. 

[evilpiggyfoofoo]

I honestly don't see anything new posted by @Darth Ataxia or @Darth Revan that haven't been repeated a dozen times but I will rehash:

We had a deal, he said she said, etc. etc.:

• So funnily enough, your document is littered with screenshots in our favor. Your silver bullet is this spitball number of $8B that you kept asking us for based on the latest stock price, and you kept saying "you didn't tell us it wasn't the final offer and it was a rough estimate until he had more time". Well, Krampus said in your screenshot that it was just an idea not an agreement. He repeated that the valuation isn't fair again in your own screenshot.
• When you quote Daveth saying "we will repay" it was in relation to the debt in general. CTO had every intention to repay a fair and just amount, just not the absurd $8B that is 3x investment. See this and this.
• Besides your ONE instance of Krampus saying "maybe $8B, I will get back to you" in the middle of exam season, there are multiple screenshots dating from September 2022 to now claiming that $8B is an unfair valuation. 
  • Once again I will acknowledge that Krampus should have communicated more clearly, but I will not admit fault when you cling onto one offhand comment when there are a dozen of official responses stating that $8B is too high and bank is worth far less.

 

You claim that HS was trying to negotiate fairly and in good faith:

• Y'all have clung on to the $8B number since last year based on a stock price that was before OWR collapse (and again, stock price is a poor measure of intrinsic value especially in liquidation scenarios). Even now you repeat one screenshot to build your entire case. You claim you were willing to settle but ghosted us from March to June. If that is fair negotiation, I guess I need to learn.
  • Your claims that no documents were given until now is pretty moot if you chose to ignore all of our outreaches for months. Should I have tracked HS down irl and sent a carrier pigeon to your house with the loan documents?
• I hear multiple claims of "we were busy so we didn't respond to your dozens of DMs until we decided to organize a blitz". First of all, congrats Ataxia on the child (genuinely mean this OOC). But second, come on, you can't eat your cake and have it lol. CTO can't respond adequately when busy and has to get back to you is problematic, but HS can ghost for 3 months an organize a war? Pick.

 

CTO has been willing to pay HS for TFnd. But we are unwilling to pay for an absurd valuation as outlined by the spreadsheet. I am personally frustrated because all of this could have been resolved if HS bothered to actually respond to us over the past few months instead of playing hide and seek. But hey, feel free to hide behind Guardian's skirts and claim that a dogpile against a newly rebuilt and demilitarized target is justice.

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by evilpiggyfoofoo

[iAlrea]

We need to do this more often.

[Kurdanak]

37 minutes ago, iAlrea said:

We need to do this more often.

In moderation, perhaps - I'm not sure if all the old and decrepit forum nerds can handle such a sudden ramp up in forum discourse. The thrill from going cold turkey to main line IV is going to put Roberts six feet under.

[darkblade]

On 6/11/2023 at 9:20 PM, SleepingNinja said:

Ataxia posted a reply to the ROH, I debated his points. Your hyper focusing on 2 sentences of the middle of my post and making this discussion into an OOC thing. That was not even close to the main part of my post. Also despite Daveth sharing an image showing WE approached THEM about getting HS econ involved less then a few minute's later your publicly lying to everyone that reads this thread that it was somehow the other way around. Edit: this no longer applies as darkblade corrected himself with his own edit.

First of all, if you post on something on the forums, expect people to respond to that post whether it's the whole thing or a specific part of it. Second, you used OOC as an excuse for why Krampus failed to do his job as the CEO of The Foundation, so you left the door open for this this to become an OOC discussion. Third, I don't know how reaching out to House Stark about replacing Krampus solves anything when Krampus never ended up getting replaced. I understand that you wanted House Stark to help out considering their position as a share holder, but it's not a good idea to make someone CEO if they don't want to be because they will do a shit job at it. And at least they offered someone to help out with the business whether you didn't want them or not. So crying over House Stark over House Stark not helping when Daveth PROVIDED screenshots proving they were willing to help out is ridiculous.

 

On 6/11/2023 at 9:20 PM, SleepingNinja said:

Also if I wanted a parrot I'd buy one and teach it to mimic myself in a much more amusing manner, not that this isn't amusing. Since clearly you have no intention to actually contribute to the discussion and are more interested in tarnishing myself with accusations of OOC I don't believe there's any reason to engage any further. I didn't say those things about taking a break to be condescending nor was it meant to be insulting, I was giving genuine advice as it's obvious those 2 sentences you've taken issue with hit a nerve which clearly was not my intention as I was never replying to you in the first place.

Maybe the parrot could do a better job at coming up with arguments. My intention has been pretty clear to call you out for trying to guilt trip people into siding with you by using OOC. Unless the situation IRL is egregious, using IRL as a excuse shows that you have no proper argument on why TF was neglected, and it shows what type of person you are IC. If you can't come up with a proper argument other than using OOC as an excuse, then you should keep your mouth shut and let the adults talk.

 

On 6/11/2023 at 9:20 PM, SleepingNinja said:

Finally as I mentioned before I decided to engage to make things more interesting and because I don't believe in HS's CB but I think there's good discussion to be had. Telling me I'm malding because I decided to engage on the forums and help bring some life to the game is just not correct. And since you started replying I've only defended myself from your frankly disgusting claims. I'd also point out that you just agreed with Daveth after about crossing a line and now your back peddling with me a post later? You know what, keep going please I suppose this is one way of entertainment for the forums too although I won't be engaging any further unless you can keep it IC.

No one uses the forums to discuss anymore, all people do is argue with each other over who is right and who is wrong, and to tell Prefontaine that his proposals suck. The reason I said you were malding is because you decided to go on a rant about how I'm a Social Justice Warrior and that Gen Z is entitled or whatever, which is different than, "engage on the forums and help bring some life to the game". You can defend yourself from my "disgusting claims", but it's a valid point to mention and people agree with me on it based on the reactions of my original post. I also have no idea what you're on about me agreeing with Daveth about crossing the line, but I told him that IRL and The Game can impede on each other, still doesn't mean you can use it as an excuse. Imagine that presentation you were supposed to have ready was never finished and you told your boss that you were busy with PNW, they would fire your ass for using a dumb excuse. I find it funny that you're trying to act like the big man in this situation when in reality you've been acting like a 12 year old with anger issues. But if you're willing to not use OOC as an argument or an excuse, then perhaps we could have a discussion like proper adults.

Edited June 13, 2023 by darkblade

[Zukran]

As an outsider looking in, my god this is such a poorly run bank.

19 hours ago, evilpiggyfoofoo said:

I admit that this sheet is not perfect to the decimal,

 

Not perfect to the decimal? Borg is pointing out errors after errors for hundreds of millions. Don't you think it's important to have an accurate assets/liabilities statement? Have there ever been any audits? 

More issues:

Tamasith took out $1.5 bil and repaid it with interest but its not logged. Where is that money?

I also don't see where that $30 mill payment came from?

Repaid as can be seen here: 

Also this should be an easy one to get the $2mil. Why has this not been paid?

 

Like seriously, this took literally 5 minutes to find these 2 glaring issues and I found a couple more but decided not to continue down the rabbit hole. Where is the money that was declared a loss but which was actually paid back?

Has there been any attempt to go through the books, cleaning them up and checking in with people(who are still active) in regards to outstanding payments?

---

If Krampus has too much going on IRL, he should have passed the reins to someone else. For instance I don't start shady poorly run bank because I know I don't have time. It's really that simple. Hard to believe, but everyone knows at the end of a school semester there are exams. Its easy to plan ahead and be responsible especially when others are reliant on you. 

---

Quote

• Latest stock prices are never a reflection of the true value of an investment

Stock market prices are the value of the company as determined by the markets/investors. Which takes into account many factors including revenue/profit growth, earnings per share, assets/liabilities etc. Who determined the stock price of $16 billion and how was that determined? Did HoS come up with that valuation?

 

So many questions and so much malpractice.

[Sri Lanka 001]

It's alright krampus can just scam other people for his rebuild, this doesn't affect him anyways, poor carthago members. Although I do want to know what does HS want for this war to end. 

[Anarchist Empire]

While your explanation seems reasonable at face value, two sides to every story. Could pretend I care more, but think the Aurora - Stark ODP is the only way this might effect me. Not going to be to be the war monger side, but guess we retain that option to defend Stark if they suddenly get attacked and that's about it. (Maybe negotiation can fix this? However feel I should have our allies backs, so won't say Stark is wrong or anything of the table defending them. I wouldn't mind a global war if this had the possibility to turn into one, feel I missed the last one. lol)

Basically you could have also just made it out like they invested in a dead investment bank when it wasn't. I won't claim to know. (Can see why they'd expect their investment to be going up in value, when the bank is somehow valued at $18b & seems like they're making money.) Good luck getting it sorted if a clerical error.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Anarchist Empire

[James II]

1 hour ago, Zukran said:

As an outsider looking in, my god this is such a poorly run bank.

You're in Guardian. That being said, it was poorly run. They also don't owe your ally 8 billion. Not even close.

[Zukran]

1 hour ago, James II said:

You're in Guardian. That being said, it was poorly run. They also don't owe your ally 8 billion. Not even close.

Yes I am in Guardian, actually wait let me double check... yup.

You and I are not in any position to make any claims to how much one side is owed. So you and I saying anything about that is not relevant especially with the limited information we have including the obviously questionable assets/liabilities. I also personally never said one side is owed $8 billion, but House Of Stark believes they are owed $8 billion.

If you read what I said above, I purely wanted to shed light about inaccurate, shady, incomplete financing in the documents linked by The Foundation and asked questions related to that and how their stock price was decided. 

If you are able to answer any of the above questions or determine the true asset/liability from the information provided by The Foundation let me know. But if we just want to throw our personal opinions around with nothing to back it up, I personally think Alex owes me $8 billion.

[James II]

6 hours ago, Zukran said:

Yes I am in Guardian, actually wait let me double check... yup.

You and I are not in any position to make any claims to how much one side is owed. So you and I saying anything about that is not relevant especially with the limited information we have including the obviously questionable assets/liabilities. I also personally never said one side is owed $8 billion, but House Of Stark believes they are owed $8 billion.

If you read what I said above, I purely wanted to shed light about inaccurate, shady, incomplete financing in the documents linked by The Foundation and asked questions related to that and how their stock price was decided. 

If you are able to answer any of the above questions or determine the true asset/liability from the information provided by The Foundation let me know. But if we just want to throw our personal opinions around with nothing to back it up, I personally think Alex owes me $8 billion.

My point was, you're not exactly a "third party" like you're trying to portray. Your alliance is at war and have a stake in it.

I'm not arguing the bank was run well.

My argument would be HS and Guardian were overzealous, demanded an absurd amount for what they were owed, and had no intention of negotiating. They were offered 2.6 billion or something? Would have been reasonable to negotiate from there instead of demanding 8 billion without having any documentation to back that amount. HS didn't even keep records and y'all are criticizing CTO for having bad records. 

[Shiho Nishizumi]

10 hours ago, James II said:

My argument would be HS and Guardian were overzealous, demanded an absurd amount for what they were owed, and had no intention of negotiating. They were offered 2.6 billion or something? Would have been reasonable to negotiate from there instead of demanding 8 billion without having any documentation to back that amount. HS didn't even keep records and y'all are criticizing CTO for having bad records. 

Part of the CB is being denied access to those records. Krampus was, as it seems, the only person running the bank; I don't think that anyone else could've produced them. 

The proposal for settling down for less as offered by Darth, alongside the protracted nature of the talks and the alternatives explored during it makes it quite obvious that they did try to negotiate first. It's hard to call a war borne out of a year-long issue as being overzealous in nature. I'd sooner argue that they bided their time.

They did get fed up and not bother discussing the matter further towards the latter months. It's not hard to guess why, based on the last screenshot linked in their document. They got the same offer for 2.6b over and over again. Logic dictates that this was Carthago's final offer, which had already been deemed as unacceptable.

Simply put, no further discussions took place because, from their standpoint, there was nothing else to be discussed. And I have zero doubts that this stance was validated when Krampus offered them 2.6b again during May.

I find it unlikely that they'd be able to get 8 billion if the bank was to be liquidated today and split. On the other hand, 2.6b does seem to be like a lowball offer. Regardless; while it's a bit sad to see something like this happen, it's yet another example on how it's infinitely better to sort out bank issues right at the start, instead of letting it fester. It's also another example, as I see it, of how poor communications and a breach of trust can spoil the whole thing. Especially if interests are involved.

Hopefully this will serve as cautionary tale for other people, on top of serving as an admittedly good piece of political drama that's enriching what's an otherwise lacking political landscape.

[Krampus]

16 minutes ago, Shiho Nishizumi said:

The proposal for settling down for less as offered by Darth, alongside the protracted nature of the talks and the alternatives explored during it makes it quite obvious that they did try to negotiate first

Logic dictates that this was Carthago's final offer, which had already been deemed as unacceptable.

Please, before commenting, read HS's "statement of facts". Even it clearly says we offered 3-4bn and they deemed it "unacceptable". They wanted 8bn and were unwilling to bulge on that. Their "obvious" negotiations were only insofar as them wanting to get an extortionate amount.  

 

 

20 hours ago, Zukran said:

If Krampus has too much going on IRL, he should have passed the reins to someone else. For instance I don't start shady poorly run bank because I know I don't have time. It's really that simple. Hard to believe, but everyone knows at the end of a school semester there are exams. Its easy to plan ahead and be responsible especially when others are reliant on you. 

Again, even your allies document shows screenshots of us saying i was looking to retire and offering them the ceo position (revan speecifically - their econ head). and them suggesting a low gov. The point is to show that we did try. 

>For instance I don't start shady poorly run bank because I know I don't have time

I didn't start the bank. The bank was started 3 years ago by bendi (OWR), i simply took it over after he left. His book keeping was even worse than this. I tried my best to reorganize it, but fell to neglect after OWR mass deleted. It was just not worth the time and effort

All in all this response can be summed up as "krampus man bad", lol

Edited June 13, 2023 by Krampus

[Marshall Tucker]

20 hours ago, Zukran said:

As an outsider looking in, my god this is such a poorly run bank.

 

Not perfect to the decimal? Borg is pointing out errors after errors for hundreds of millions. Don't you think it's important to have an accurate assets/liabilities statement? Have there ever been any audits? 

More issues:

Tamasith took out $1.5 bil and repaid it with interest but its not logged. Where is that money?

I also don't see where that $30 mill payment came from?

Repaid as can be seen here: 

Also this should be an easy one to get the $2mil. Why has this not been paid?

 

Like seriously, this took literally 5 minutes to find these 2 glaring issues and I found a couple more but decided not to continue down the rabbit hole. Where is the money that was declared a loss but which was actually paid back?

Has there been any attempt to go through the books, cleaning them up and checking in with people(who are still active) in regards to outstanding payments?

---

If Krampus has too much going on IRL, he should have passed the reins to someone else. For instance I don't start shady poorly run bank because I know I don't have time. It's really that simple. Hard to believe, but everyone knows at the end of a school semester there are exams. Its easy to plan ahead and be responsible especially when others are reliant on you. 

---

Stock market prices are the value of the company as determined by the markets/investors. Which takes into account many factors including revenue/profit growth, earnings per share, assets/liabilities etc. Who determined the stock price of $16 billion and how was that determined? Did HoS come up with that valuation?

 

So many questions and so much malpractice.

Uhum looks like it

[Shiho Nishizumi]

Just now, Krampus said:

Please, before commenting, read HS's "statement of facts". Even it clearly says we offered 3-4bn and they deemed it "unacceptable". They wanted 8bn and were unwilling to bulge on that. Their "obvious" negotiations were only insofar as them wanting to get an extortionate amount.  

 

 

Again, even your allies document shows screenshots of us offering them the ceo position (revan speecifically - their econ head). and them suggesting a low gov. The point is to show that we did try. 

>For instance I don't start shady poorly run bank because I know I don't have time

I didn't start the bank. The bank was started 3 years ago by bendi (OWR), i simply took it over after he left. His book keeping was even worse than this. I tried my best to reorganize it, but fell to neglect after OWR mass deleted. It was just not worth the time and effort

All in all this response can be summed up as "krampus man bad", lol

I've read that document three times over by now. Daveth's offer was something that I deliberated including, but ultimately didn't because it was superceded by the 2.6b offers that followed. In other words, it was no longer the standing offer.

By contrast, Darth's proposal was the most recent one, prior to the breakdown of negotiations. I imagine that his proposal might have netted House Stark something in between 4b and 8b.

Suffice to say that if HS wasn't willing to accept 4b, then it was obviously not going to accept 2.6b. To me, continuing to suggest it simply comes across as being tone deaf.

[Krampus]

11 minutes ago, Shiho Nishizumi said:

Suffice to say that if HS wasn't willing to accept 4b, then it was obviously not going to accept 2.6b

That's my point. They showed a clear unwillingness to negotiate, and just insisting on out of date figures. In response to your comment:

 "makes it quite obvious that they did try to negotiate first. ", which is demonstrably false. 

If they tried to negotiate for a reasonable sum they'd have already met us in the 4bn figure, and not blindly insisted on 8bn. 

[Shiho Nishizumi]

3 hours ago, Krampus said:

That's my point. They showed a clear unwillingness to negotiate, and just insisting on out of date figures. In response to your comment:

 "makes it quite obvious that they did try to negotiate first. ", which is demonstrably false. 

If they tried to negotiate for a reasonable sum they'd have already met us in the 4bn figure, and not blindly insisted on 8bn. 

I'm not sure how you can argue that with a straight face when Darth's offer, and the response to it, was made and is logged for everyone to see.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Shiho Nishizumi

[Danzek]

On 6/12/2023 at 6:37 AM, evilpiggyfoofoo said:

But as Borg mentioned, even with the errors accounted for, it makes a minimal difference and far bridges the $8B gap.

I said it probably doesn't. You haven't accounted for the errors, you just spent a brief time "fixing" it but still having incorrect values and then brushed aside their relevance. It is not worth anyone's time to state further errors.

I do not agree with the conclusions you are trying to draw from my statement.

Please know that I wish the best for CTO and for an amicable resolution to this conflict.

Your sheet does a poor job at showing company value:

1. All defaulted loans with repayments were incorrect, with the first one I looked at being off by a factor of 3x
2. Loans that were repaid were not recorded
3. You had to guess what was paid to bond holders

This is the sheet you scrambled to fix up because the previous one was even worse. 

I do not know why it took two years to realize the 6B swing losses in the books. 

Or why it was decided to merge TFB into the CTO offshore with this kind of record keeping. 

Or how one can justify nuking records by deleting the TFB server in a "Finance 101 for dummies" post.

Maybe if the records weren't so poor Krampus wouldn't have stated at separate occasions an incorrect ESV, an incorrect book value, nor would Krampus, Daveth initially agree to an 8b repayment. 

To restate what was discussed in RON:

Is false. OWR had defaults, yes, but they also had 33% shares which were split to the remaining shareholders (CTO/HS).

OWR would need to default for 7.26B for shareholder value to remain the same. The sheet doesn't seem to show that. For HS shares to then be worth 2.6B OWR would have needed to default for $16.8B.

The company probably never had a book value of 22B.

You have no idea how much money the company actually has.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Borg

[Darth Revan]

House Stark's Guide for Super Dummies: Foreign Affairs 101 "How not to get rolled" Bonus Lecture

1.  Keep records

On 6/12/2023 at 12:34 AM, evilpiggyfoofoo said:

Y'all have clung on to the $8B number since last year based on a stock price that was before OWR collapse (and again, stock price is a poor measure of intrinsic value especially in liquidation scenarios).

Huh that's new.  It's almost like there were two different attempts in March that did not primarily revolve around the 8B figure (points 78-81).  It was you guys that clung onto your 2.6B figure throughout the whole ordeal like a broken record (points 23, 27,80,82,83,85).  

2.  Repeat topic due to lack of understanding: Negotiations

On 6/12/2023 at 12:34 AM, evilpiggyfoofoo said:

Even now you repeat one screenshot to build your entire case. You claim you were willing to settle but ghosted us from March to June. If that is fair negotiation, I guess I need to learn.

• Your claims that no documents were given until now is pretty moot if you chose to ignore all of our outreaches for months. Should I have tracked HS down irl and sent a carrier pigeon to your house with the loan documents?

 

Please do tell me how much time I was supposed to waste continuing to talk to you when any attempt at compromise was rejected by your side (points 78-81).  Sorry for using a word CTO doesn't understand.  Compromise: an agreement or a settlement of a dispute that is reached by each side making concessions.  Your "outreach" simply reiterated your original position (points 82,83,85) in May which indicated nothing changed.  The 2.6B sum by that point, was clear it was not acceptable to us and using it in your outreach was frankly insulting by that point. 

3. Other actors have agency and are not bound by your timeline

On 6/12/2023 at 12:34 AM, evilpiggyfoofoo said:

But second, come on, you can't eat your cake and have it lol. CTO can't respond adequately when busy and has to get back to you is problematic, but HS can ghost for 3 months an organize a war? Pick.

I'll let you in on a little secret, this war wasn't planned in June.  When the nature of your outreach is just reiterating the same things and deleting the server, I don't warrant that worthy of any response and it just solidified and hardened our resolve to go another more entertaining route. 

On 6/12/2023 at 12:34 AM, evilpiggyfoofoo said:

claim that a dogpile against a newly rebuilt and demilitarized target is justice.

Nobody deserves this. 

[Pascal]

Let's hope Roberts never sees this

[Darth Ataxia]

1 hour ago, Pascal said:

Let's hope Roberts never sees this

He’s taking a cold shower as we speak.