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Changes to beige - Last call


Prefontaine
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For the first bullet point, if there's no loot or infra damage, is this mechanism strictly for giving beige just to the defender if they lose?  

Assume no beige given for offensive wars still?  It's not clarified in this list above.

Do nations still go to gray when they come out of beige or can they default back to the color they were before?  It's a hassle to continually get people to remember to switch back, as most AAs could attest to.  Gray should be for true inactives only.

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This looks like a much better version of Beige. Good work.

 

edit for the edit: Aggressors should get beige. The logic that you can "slot fill for beige" can be done both aggressively and defensively. A loss is a loss either way. I'd also vote in favor of removing auto-accepting peace.

Edited by Roberts
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2 minutes ago, Lord Tyrion said:

For the first bullet point, if there's no loot or infra damage, is this mechanism strictly for giving beige just to the defender if they lose?  

Assume no beige given for offensive wars still?  It's not clarified in this list above.

Do nations still go to gray when they come out of beige or can they default back to the color they were before?  It's a hassle to continually get people to remember to switch back, as most AAs could attest to.  Gray should be for true inactives only.

Correct, wars that expire will cause the defeated party to move to beige without the other aspects of defeat.
No Beige for offensive wars still, overlooked that part in the test server announcement. I'll put it into the OP after this post. Thanks.
Nations still move to grey when they come out of beige.

Always keep your foes confused. If they are never sure who you are or what you want, they cannot know what you are like to do next.
Sometimes the best way to baffle them is to make moves that have no purpose, or even seem to work against you.

scSqPGJ.gif

It's like I'm reading a book and it's a book I deeply love. I'm reading it slowly now so the words are really far apart and the spaces between the words are almost infinite. I can still feel the words of the story, but it's in this endless space between the words I find myself now It's a place that's not of the physical. It's where everything else is. This is where I am now, and who I am.

 

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Thanks Pre.  And not to be difficult, but just curious the logic to making them auto switch to gray, and maybe it's just the coding effort isn't worth the trouble right now.  I know it's always been that way, I figure there is a logical reason for it though.  Effectively all it does it cause the alliance not to tax the member and have to fight communication to get it corrected.  Not a huge deal, just wondering if there's a reason we want that to occur.

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1 minute ago, Lord Tyrion said:

Thanks Pre.  And not to be difficult, but just curious the logic to making them auto switch to gray, and maybe it's just the coding effort isn't worth the trouble right now.  I know it's always been that way, I figure there is a logical reason for it though.  Effectively all it does it cause the alliance not to tax the member and have to fight communication to get it corrected.  Not a huge deal, just wondering if there's a reason we want that to occur.

I get where you're coming from. Coming from a former alliance leaders point of view, I would want my members to know that they should be doing this themselves. Better informed members, better alliance sort of thinking. If you have members that aren't performing how you want them to, even as simple as being on the correct color, that can easily be fixed with leaders communicating with their members. If you have members that refuse to follow that basic sort of instruction, perhaps they should be considered to be removed from said alliance. Again, this is coming from a former leadership POV. Having a few small areas which require leaderships to instruct members on how they should be performing isn't a bad thing, IMO. 

All that being said, I don't feel strongly against adding such a mechanic. 

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Always keep your foes confused. If they are never sure who you are or what you want, they cannot know what you are like to do next.
Sometimes the best way to baffle them is to make moves that have no purpose, or even seem to work against you.

scSqPGJ.gif

It's like I'm reading a book and it's a book I deeply love. I'm reading it slowly now so the words are really far apart and the spaces between the words are almost infinite. I can still feel the words of the story, but it's in this endless space between the words I find myself now It's a place that's not of the physical. It's where everything else is. This is where I am now, and who I am.

 

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15 minutes ago, Theodosius said:

A well supported player simple solution/suggestion of making **all wars** end in beige upon expiry dependent on remaining resistance has been made meaningless with this, what, a cosmetic change at best? No one cares about the in game victory/loss ratio mechanic. 

None of the proposed points address fighting back from an unfavourable position and none of them address easy time of continuous cycling/sitting on people (translation: permawar easy af) that the recent changes have made possible (and the aforementioned ones do not fix this). Make the first point actually do something and make all the wars beige upon expiry, either based on resistance or some additional factors - and at least, in a way, it will patch up the main issues of the current meta that was radically broken when beige was completely removed.

Not being able to break beige until you're down to 12 turns seems like a sufficient counterweight to getting beiged, but it's meaningless if there is simply no possible scenario of a nation getting enough time on beige for respite in the first place.

 

5 minutes ago, Prefontaine said:

I get where you're coming from. Coming from a former alliance leaders point of view, I would want my members to know that they should be doing this themselves. Better informed members, better alliance sort of thinking. If you have members that aren't performing how you want them to, even as simple as being on the correct color, that can easily be fixed with leaders communicating with their members. If you have members that refuse to follow that basic sort of instruction, perhaps they should be considered to be removed from said alliance. Again, this is coming from a former leadership POV. Having a few small areas which require leaderships to instruct members on how they should be performing isn't a bad thing, IMO. 

All that being said, I don't feel strongly against adding such a mechanic. 

I think theo's response shouldnt be glossed over here. How do you plan to address those concerns? (or how does alex plan to)

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2 minutes ago, dtc justice said:

I feel like not being able to leave beige with more than 12 turns is kind of counter productive to what you're trying to achieve. If you want to make it so people can make a comeback during war...not allowing them to leave beige when they please---makes it very difficult for people to coordinate a blitz

It's supposedly designed to make beige less desirable/useful (which okay, kinda makes sense as a counterbalance?), but you can't get enough beige in the first place anyway so ayy lmao 

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3 minutes ago, dtc justice said:

I feel like not being able to leave beige with more than 12 turns is kind of counter productive to what you're trying to achieve. If you want to make it so people can make a comeback during war...not allowing them to leave beige when they please---makes it very difficult for people to coordinate a blitz

Getting defeated will make it more difficult to coordinate militarily shortly after being defeated, yes. Winning should have some advantages, one being increasing the difficulty in which the losing side can coordinate. If you only receive 1 defeat, the wait time to come out is 16 hours. It's not too strong of an advantage. 

Always keep your foes confused. If they are never sure who you are or what you want, they cannot know what you are like to do next.
Sometimes the best way to baffle them is to make moves that have no purpose, or even seem to work against you.

scSqPGJ.gif

It's like I'm reading a book and it's a book I deeply love. I'm reading it slowly now so the words are really far apart and the spaces between the words are almost infinite. I can still feel the words of the story, but it's in this endless space between the words I find myself now It's a place that's not of the physical. It's where everything else is. This is where I am now, and who I am.

 

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19 minutes ago, Theodosius said:

Make the first point actually do something and make all the wars beige upon expiry

The way I understood it this will actually be the case and only the infra damage and loot doesnt apply at expired defeat.

@Prefontaine clarify?

On a related note though, not sure if its great that beige time for one defeat is being decreased from 25 turns to 20 turns when all beige time acquired through offensive wars will also be missing going forward.

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2 minutes ago, Talus said:

Previous strategy:
Destroy an opponent's military and only attack when they build up. Make sure someone gets in a fresh declaration if it looks like you'll beige them. That new declaration is to keep their military suppressed until beige expires and others can declare to keep their military depleted. Actually engage with your members under attack and make sure they're not going to make a mistake of beiging their opponents, and thus with proper tactical response make sure the enemy has as little beige as possible. Competency matters.

New strategy:
Destroy an opponent's military and only attack when they build up. Make sure someone gets in a fresh declaration if it looks like you'll beige them or the war is going to expire. The new declaration is to keep their military suppressed until beige expires and others can declare to keep their military depleted. Don't even look at offensive wars launched at you, why even interact with your members amirite? Actually who needs good members?

mission_accomplish_1112950c.jpg

ftfy

 

1 minute ago, Dryad said:

The way I understood it this will actually be the case and only the infra damage and loot doesnt apply at expired defeat.

@Prefontaine clarify?

On a related note though, not sure if its great that beige time for one defeat is being decreased from 25 turns to 20 turns when all beige time acquired through offensive wars will also be missing going forward.

 

27 minutes ago, Prefontaine said:

Correct, wars that expire will cause the defeated party to move to beige without the other aspects of defeat.
No Beige for offensive wars still, overlooked that part in the test server announcement. I'll put it into the OP after this post. Thanks.
Nations still move to grey when they come out of beige.

 

 

 

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Just now, Dryad said:

The way I understood it this will actually be the case and only the infra damage and loot doesnt apply at expired defeat.

@Prefontaine clarify?

Correct. The exact text from the test server announcement is as follows:

 

Quote

Expired wars will not cause % infrastructure damage or loot, but will result in Beige time for the defender if they lose the war.

 

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Always keep your foes confused. If they are never sure who you are or what you want, they cannot know what you are like to do next.
Sometimes the best way to baffle them is to make moves that have no purpose, or even seem to work against you.

scSqPGJ.gif

It's like I'm reading a book and it's a book I deeply love. I'm reading it slowly now so the words are really far apart and the spaces between the words are almost infinite. I can still feel the words of the story, but it's in this endless space between the words I find myself now It's a place that's not of the physical. It's where everything else is. This is where I am now, and who I am.

 

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15 minutes ago, Prefonteen said:

 How do you plan to address those concerns? (or how does alex plan to)

Alex can answer that when he reviews the thread. I would suggest making suggestions in this thread on how to address the concerns he raised in the meantime. That's what this thread is for. 

Always keep your foes confused. If they are never sure who you are or what you want, they cannot know what you are like to do next.
Sometimes the best way to baffle them is to make moves that have no purpose, or even seem to work against you.

scSqPGJ.gif

It's like I'm reading a book and it's a book I deeply love. I'm reading it slowly now so the words are really far apart and the spaces between the words are almost infinite. I can still feel the words of the story, but it's in this endless space between the words I find myself now It's a place that's not of the physical. It's where everything else is. This is where I am now, and who I am.

 

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The apparently popular idea that an expired war should give an attacker beige while the loss at 0 resistance doesn't makes little sense to me. Any defender would just zero your resistance instead of letting a war expire and if they wanna sit on you they will do so until the turn before the war expires. On the other hand if the defender can't defeat the aggressor then imo the aggressor also shouldn't get beige. I absolutely agree that there is an issue with beige time being hard to get but the problematic issue imo is that lost defensive wars don't give enough beige time.

 

One thing about beige on expiry that imo is extremely exploitable though in the proposed state, is that you will know exactly when you get beiged and can declare offensive wars right before that moment. Any defender will never want to do any attack that brings the aggressors resistance below their own, instead you would have an aggressors military zeroed purely by means of counters and acquire beige time even if your military is completely unharmed.

Edited by Dryad
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31 minutes ago, Prefontaine said:

Alex can answer that when he reviews the thread. I would suggest making suggestions in this thread on how to address the concerns he raised in the meantime. That's what this thread is for. 

Alex's reason for not giving the aggressor beige is slot filling, right?

I think having all wars (offensive and defensive) end in beige, disincentivizes slot filling more than not having it. Why would people need to slot fill to receive beige if everyone gets it anyway? The only reason one might slot fill, is to occupy those slots and do minimal damage while the person whose slots they're filling can beat their opponents. However, I think that's a lot more detectable than slot filling for beige, and it is also still possible in the new proposed system.

Edited by Hime-sama
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1 hour ago, Theodosius said:

A well supported player simple solution/suggestion of making **all wars (edit: for clarification, make both the offensive and defensive parties in all wars be able to receive beige)** end in beige upon expiry dependent on remaining resistance has been made meaningless with this, what, a cosmetic change at best? No one cares about the in game victory/loss ratio mechanic. 

None of the proposed points address fighting back from an unfavourable position and none of them address easy time of continuous cycling/sitting on people (translation: permawar easy af) that the recent changes have made possible (and the aforementioned ones do not fix this). Make the first point actually do something and make all the wars beige upon expiry, either based on resistance or some additional factors - and at least, in a way, it will patch up the main issues of the current meta that was radically broken when beige was completely removed.

Not being able to break beige until you're down to 12 turns seems like a sufficient counterweight to getting beiged, but it's meaningless if there is simply no possible scenario of a nation getting enough time on beige for respite in the first place.

Sorry this was not made clear - but if the defender is the loser, and they have 50 or less resistance remaining, they would receive the beige time.

48 minutes ago, Blink said:

What exactly is the issue with people leaving beige when they like? Is it just to encourage a victory? 

By forcing people to stay on beige, there's more incentive to want to win wars and beige your opponent. Keeping them out of the fight and making it harder for them to coordinate a blitz removes a lot of the incentive to fight the war but not want to win it.

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I'm going to refer to Alex's reasoning in the other thread on why offensive beige should be removed:

2 hours ago, Alex said:

Allies declaring war on you just to give you beige time (not to fight a real war) is very obviously slot filling, and it's a lot harder to claim that it's something else.

And it's not true that you have to lose your military to get to beige. You could, for example, declare a bunch of offensive wars on allies, let them all beige you with ships or something, while keeping full ground and air forces.

This same scenario can very easily be reversed.

You declaring war on an ally just to give yourself beige time is also very obviously slot filling, and it's a lot harder to claim that it's something else.

There really isn't any difference between the two, and all that removing offensive beige does is sacrifice a much-needed mechanic in fighting back during a losing war in exchange for reduction in the frequency of slot-filling, which can quite simply be moderated just as it has been for the past however many years since beige has been implemented. There will always be more discrete, difficult to discern situations with slot-filling, but if people are committed enough to go that far in hiding it, removing offensive beige isn't going to stop them either. 

This change quite clearly has the potential to balance out several factors in the war system and beige, but removing offensive wars providing beige goes against several of the much needed counter-balances in the game when fighting in an uphill war.

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I like all the changes but the one where you can't leave beige early. Just the assurance of beige always being applied is enough in my opinion. This will help solve the bad meta of not winning wars.

Edited by lightside
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20 minutes ago, Alex said:

By forcing people to stay on beige, there's more incentive to want to win wars and beige your opponent. Keeping them out of the fight and making it harder for them to coordinate a blitz removes a lot of the incentive to fight the war but not want to win it.

No one said they didn't want to win a war by leaving beige unless you are discouraging raiding also. 

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