Popular Post Prefontaine Posted July 10, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted July 10, 2020 (edited) After reviewing feedback from Azaghul's thread Alex is considering removing the auto-accepting peace mechanic. That mechanic being that when a nation has been defeated and is beige, that nation auto-accepts peace offers sent to them in other existing wars. The main changes to the mechanic as a whole are as follows: All wars will end in a victory or defeat when they expire determined by remaining resistance levels. In the case of a tie, the defender is victorious. Wars that end through expiration will not cause infrastructure damage or give loot. Nations who are placed into beige from losing a war cannot leave beige early if they have more than 12 turns of beige time remaining. Newly created nations can still leave beige early. Losing a war adds 20 turns of beige with a maximum of 5 days of beige. Aggressors will no longer receive beige if they lose their war. Last call for input before the changes are finalized on the test server, tested, then moved live. Edited July 10, 2020 by Prefontaine 2 1 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Tyrion Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 For the first bullet point, if there's no loot or infra damage, is this mechanism strictly for giving beige just to the defender if they lose? Assume no beige given for offensive wars still? It's not clarified in this list above. Do nations still go to gray when they come out of beige or can they default back to the color they were before? It's a hassle to continually get people to remember to switch back, as most AAs could attest to. Gray should be for true inactives only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alastor Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 (edited) This looks like a much better version of Beige. Good work. edit for the edit: Aggressors should get beige. The logic that you can "slot fill for beige" can be done both aggressively and defensively. A loss is a loss either way. I'd also vote in favor of removing auto-accepting peace. Edited July 13, 2020 by Roberts 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prefontaine Posted July 10, 2020 Author Share Posted July 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, Lord Tyrion said: For the first bullet point, if there's no loot or infra damage, is this mechanism strictly for giving beige just to the defender if they lose? Assume no beige given for offensive wars still? It's not clarified in this list above. Do nations still go to gray when they come out of beige or can they default back to the color they were before? It's a hassle to continually get people to remember to switch back, as most AAs could attest to. Gray should be for true inactives only. Correct, wars that expire will cause the defeated party to move to beige without the other aspects of defeat. No Beige for offensive wars still, overlooked that part in the test server announcement. I'll put it into the OP after this post. Thanks. Nations still move to grey when they come out of beige. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Theodosius Posted July 10, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted July 10, 2020 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Prefontaine said: All wars will end in a victory or defeat when they expire determined remaining resistance levels. In the case of a tie, the defender is victorious. Was that end through expiration will not cause infrastructure damage or give loot. A well supported player simple solution/suggestion of making **all wars (edit: for clarification, make both the offensive and defensive parties in all wars be able to receive beige)** end in beige upon expiry dependent on remaining resistance has been made meaningless with this, what, a cosmetic change at best? No one cares about the in game victory/loss ratio mechanic. None of the proposed points address fighting back from an unfavourable position and none of them address easy time of continuous cycling/sitting on people (translation: permawar easy af) that the recent changes have made possible (and the aforementioned ones do not fix this). Make the first point actually do something and make all the wars beige upon expiry, either based on resistance or some additional factors - and at least, in a way, it will patch up the main issues of the current meta that was radically broken when beige was completely removed. Not being able to break beige until you're down to 12 turns seems like a sufficient counterweight to getting beiged, but it's meaningless if there is simply no possible scenario of a nation getting enough time on beige for respite in the first place. Edited July 10, 2020 by Theodosius 1 16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Tyrion Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 Thanks Pre. And not to be difficult, but just curious the logic to making them auto switch to gray, and maybe it's just the coding effort isn't worth the trouble right now. I know it's always been that way, I figure there is a logical reason for it though. Effectively all it does it cause the alliance not to tax the member and have to fight communication to get it corrected. Not a huge deal, just wondering if there's a reason we want that to occur. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prefontaine Posted July 10, 2020 Author Share Posted July 10, 2020 1 minute ago, Lord Tyrion said: Thanks Pre. And not to be difficult, but just curious the logic to making them auto switch to gray, and maybe it's just the coding effort isn't worth the trouble right now. I know it's always been that way, I figure there is a logical reason for it though. Effectively all it does it cause the alliance not to tax the member and have to fight communication to get it corrected. Not a huge deal, just wondering if there's a reason we want that to occur. I get where you're coming from. Coming from a former alliance leaders point of view, I would want my members to know that they should be doing this themselves. Better informed members, better alliance sort of thinking. If you have members that aren't performing how you want them to, even as simple as being on the correct color, that can easily be fixed with leaders communicating with their members. If you have members that refuse to follow that basic sort of instruction, perhaps they should be considered to be removed from said alliance. Again, this is coming from a former leadership POV. Having a few small areas which require leaderships to instruct members on how they should be performing isn't a bad thing, IMO. All that being said, I don't feel strongly against adding such a mechanic. 2 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post dtc justice Posted July 10, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted July 10, 2020 I feel like not being able to leave beige with more than 12 turns is kind of counter productive to what you're trying to achieve. If you want to make it so people can make a comeback during war...not allowing them to leave beige when they please---makes it very difficult for people to coordinate a blitz 14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blink Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 What exactly is the issue with people leaving beige when they like? Is it just to encourage a victory? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prefonteen Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 15 minutes ago, Theodosius said: A well supported player simple solution/suggestion of making **all wars** end in beige upon expiry dependent on remaining resistance has been made meaningless with this, what, a cosmetic change at best? No one cares about the in game victory/loss ratio mechanic. None of the proposed points address fighting back from an unfavourable position and none of them address easy time of continuous cycling/sitting on people (translation: permawar easy af) that the recent changes have made possible (and the aforementioned ones do not fix this). Make the first point actually do something and make all the wars beige upon expiry, either based on resistance or some additional factors - and at least, in a way, it will patch up the main issues of the current meta that was radically broken when beige was completely removed. Not being able to break beige until you're down to 12 turns seems like a sufficient counterweight to getting beiged, but it's meaningless if there is simply no possible scenario of a nation getting enough time on beige for respite in the first place. 5 minutes ago, Prefontaine said: I get where you're coming from. Coming from a former alliance leaders point of view, I would want my members to know that they should be doing this themselves. Better informed members, better alliance sort of thinking. If you have members that aren't performing how you want them to, even as simple as being on the correct color, that can easily be fixed with leaders communicating with their members. If you have members that refuse to follow that basic sort of instruction, perhaps they should be considered to be removed from said alliance. Again, this is coming from a former leadership POV. Having a few small areas which require leaderships to instruct members on how they should be performing isn't a bad thing, IMO. All that being said, I don't feel strongly against adding such a mechanic. I think theo's response shouldnt be glossed over here. How do you plan to address those concerns? (or how does alex plan to) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theodosius Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, dtc justice said: I feel like not being able to leave beige with more than 12 turns is kind of counter productive to what you're trying to achieve. If you want to make it so people can make a comeback during war...not allowing them to leave beige when they please---makes it very difficult for people to coordinate a blitz It's supposedly designed to make beige less desirable/useful (which okay, kinda makes sense as a counterbalance?), but you can't get enough beige in the first place anyway so ayy lmao 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Talus Posted July 10, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted July 10, 2020 Previous strategy: Destroy an opponent's military and only attack when they build up. Make sure someone gets in a fresh declaration if it looks like you'll beige them. That new declaration is to keep their military suppressed until beige expires and others can declare to keep their military depleted. New strategy: Destroy an opponent's military and only attack when they build up. Make sure someone gets in a fresh declaration if it looks like you'll beige them or the war is going to expire. The new declaration is to keep their military suppressed until beige expires and others can declare to keep their military depleted. 13 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katashimon13 Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 did we go thru all the old topics' discussions that azgul pulled the ideas from? also yes plz leave the grey no tax mechanic in so pplz have to engage with thiier members 😐 rawr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prefontaine Posted July 10, 2020 Author Share Posted July 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, dtc justice said: I feel like not being able to leave beige with more than 12 turns is kind of counter productive to what you're trying to achieve. If you want to make it so people can make a comeback during war...not allowing them to leave beige when they please---makes it very difficult for people to coordinate a blitz Getting defeated will make it more difficult to coordinate militarily shortly after being defeated, yes. Winning should have some advantages, one being increasing the difficulty in which the losing side can coordinate. If you only receive 1 defeat, the wait time to come out is 16 hours. It's not too strong of an advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dryad Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 19 minutes ago, Theodosius said: Make the first point actually do something and make all the wars beige upon expiry The way I understood it this will actually be the case and only the infra damage and loot doesnt apply at expired defeat. @Prefontaine clarify? On a related note though, not sure if its great that beige time for one defeat is being decreased from 25 turns to 20 turns when all beige time acquired through offensive wars will also be missing going forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiho Nishizumi Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 7 minutes ago, Prefonteen said: I think theo's response shouldnt be glossed over here. How do you plan to address those concerns? (or how does alex plan to) It's evident they do not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theodosius Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, Talus said: Previous strategy: Destroy an opponent's military and only attack when they build up. Make sure someone gets in a fresh declaration if it looks like you'll beige them. That new declaration is to keep their military suppressed until beige expires and others can declare to keep their military depleted. Actually engage with your members under attack and make sure they're not going to make a mistake of beiging their opponents, and thus with proper tactical response make sure the enemy has as little beige as possible. Competency matters. New strategy: Destroy an opponent's military and only attack when they build up. Make sure someone gets in a fresh declaration if it looks like you'll beige them or the war is going to expire. The new declaration is to keep their military suppressed until beige expires and others can declare to keep their military depleted. Don't even look at offensive wars launched at you, why even interact with your members amirite? Actually who needs good members? ftfy 1 minute ago, Dryad said: The way I understood it this will actually be the case and only the infra damage and loot doesnt apply at expired defeat. @Prefontaine clarify? On a related note though, not sure if its great that beige time for one defeat is being decreased from 25 turns to 20 turns when all beige time acquired through offensive wars will also be missing going forward. 27 minutes ago, Prefontaine said: Correct, wars that expire will cause the defeated party to move to beige without the other aspects of defeat.No Beige for offensive wars still, overlooked that part in the test server announcement. I'll put it into the OP after this post. Thanks. Nations still move to grey when they come out of beige. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prefontaine Posted July 10, 2020 Author Share Posted July 10, 2020 Just now, Dryad said: The way I understood it this will actually be the case and only the infra damage and loot doesnt apply at expired defeat. @Prefontaine clarify? Correct. The exact text from the test server announcement is as follows: Quote Expired wars will not cause % infrastructure damage or loot, but will result in Beige time for the defender if they lose the war. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prefontaine Posted July 10, 2020 Author Share Posted July 10, 2020 15 minutes ago, Prefonteen said: How do you plan to address those concerns? (or how does alex plan to) Alex can answer that when he reviews the thread. I would suggest making suggestions in this thread on how to address the concerns he raised in the meantime. That's what this thread is for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dryad Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 (edited) The apparently popular idea that an expired war should give an attacker beige while the loss at 0 resistance doesn't makes little sense to me. Any defender would just zero your resistance instead of letting a war expire and if they wanna sit on you they will do so until the turn before the war expires. On the other hand if the defender can't defeat the aggressor then imo the aggressor also shouldn't get beige. I absolutely agree that there is an issue with beige time being hard to get but the problematic issue imo is that lost defensive wars don't give enough beige time. One thing about beige on expiry that imo is extremely exploitable though in the proposed state, is that you will know exactly when you get beiged and can declare offensive wars right before that moment. Any defender will never want to do any attack that brings the aggressors resistance below their own, instead you would have an aggressors military zeroed purely by means of counters and acquire beige time even if your military is completely unharmed. Edited July 10, 2020 by Dryad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arawra Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Prefontaine said: Alex can answer that when he reviews the thread. I would suggest making suggestions in this thread on how to address the concerns he raised in the meantime. That's what this thread is for. Alex's reason for not giving the aggressor beige is slot filling, right? I think having all wars (offensive and defensive) end in beige, disincentivizes slot filling more than not having it. Why would people need to slot fill to receive beige if everyone gets it anyway? The only reason one might slot fill, is to occupy those slots and do minimal damage while the person whose slots they're filling can beat their opponents. However, I think that's a lot more detectable than slot filling for beige, and it is also still possible in the new proposed system. Edited July 10, 2020 by Hime-sama 2 Quote Look up to the sky above~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Alex Posted July 10, 2020 Administrators Share Posted July 10, 2020 1 hour ago, Theodosius said: A well supported player simple solution/suggestion of making **all wars (edit: for clarification, make both the offensive and defensive parties in all wars be able to receive beige)** end in beige upon expiry dependent on remaining resistance has been made meaningless with this, what, a cosmetic change at best? No one cares about the in game victory/loss ratio mechanic. None of the proposed points address fighting back from an unfavourable position and none of them address easy time of continuous cycling/sitting on people (translation: permawar easy af) that the recent changes have made possible (and the aforementioned ones do not fix this). Make the first point actually do something and make all the wars beige upon expiry, either based on resistance or some additional factors - and at least, in a way, it will patch up the main issues of the current meta that was radically broken when beige was completely removed. Not being able to break beige until you're down to 12 turns seems like a sufficient counterweight to getting beiged, but it's meaningless if there is simply no possible scenario of a nation getting enough time on beige for respite in the first place. Sorry this was not made clear - but if the defender is the loser, and they have 50 or less resistance remaining, they would receive the beige time. 48 minutes ago, Blink said: What exactly is the issue with people leaving beige when they like? Is it just to encourage a victory? By forcing people to stay on beige, there's more incentive to want to win wars and beige your opponent. Keeping them out of the fight and making it harder for them to coordinate a blitz removes a lot of the incentive to fight the war but not want to win it. 1 2 Quote Is there a bug? Report It | Not understanding game mechanics? Ask About It | Got a good idea? Suggest ItForums Rules | Game Link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vemek Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 I'm going to refer to Alex's reasoning in the other thread on why offensive beige should be removed: 2 hours ago, Alex said: Allies declaring war on you just to give you beige time (not to fight a real war) is very obviously slot filling, and it's a lot harder to claim that it's something else. And it's not true that you have to lose your military to get to beige. You could, for example, declare a bunch of offensive wars on allies, let them all beige you with ships or something, while keeping full ground and air forces. This same scenario can very easily be reversed. You declaring war on an ally just to give yourself beige time is also very obviously slot filling, and it's a lot harder to claim that it's something else. There really isn't any difference between the two, and all that removing offensive beige does is sacrifice a much-needed mechanic in fighting back during a losing war in exchange for reduction in the frequency of slot-filling, which can quite simply be moderated just as it has been for the past however many years since beige has been implemented. There will always be more discrete, difficult to discern situations with slot-filling, but if people are committed enough to go that far in hiding it, removing offensive beige isn't going to stop them either. This change quite clearly has the potential to balance out several factors in the war system and beige, but removing offensive wars providing beige goes against several of the much needed counter-balances in the game when fighting in an uphill war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lightside Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 (edited) I like all the changes but the one where you can't leave beige early. Just the assurance of beige always being applied is enough in my opinion. This will help solve the bad meta of not winning wars. Edited July 10, 2020 by lightside 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blink Posted July 10, 2020 Share Posted July 10, 2020 20 minutes ago, Alex said: By forcing people to stay on beige, there's more incentive to want to win wars and beige your opponent. Keeping them out of the fight and making it harder for them to coordinate a blitz removes a lot of the incentive to fight the war but not want to win it. No one said they didn't want to win a war by leaving beige unless you are discouraging raiding also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.