[ROH] Carthago's Guide For Dummies: Finance 101

[Hobbs]

I love how the title of this is Carthago's Guide for Dummies: Finance 101 while giving us a spreadsheet of just how terribly managed their finances were when they approached us with an offer. 

[SleepingNinja]

52 minutes ago, Hobbs said:

I love how the title of this is Carthago's Guide for Dummies: Finance 101 while giving us a spreadsheet of just how terribly managed their finances were when they approached us with an offer. 

I love how HS can't accept that human error exists when it comes to math and instead of attempting to reciprocate when informed of said human error they draw the line at the shiny 8B error figure instead then make a power point presentation of 90ish 'points' which insists they exhausted all options.. except actually talking to the current leader of CTO.🙄

[Warshackx]

Wonder how HS can justify their war now?

[Danzek]

14 hours ago, evilpiggyfoofoo said:

Guide For Dummies: Finance 101

probs right that the difference isn't significant. pretty sure its still wrong tho. must be another misclick. 

Cant copy the sheet, so I typed it out:

also seems like a bunch of the others have similar problems e.g.

5b loan and 200m loan, with 5b and 204m repaid should be $4,000,000 profit, not 0. 

 

[Starfuze]

I’d personally like to thank CTO for providing this crucial information to us. We only had to declare on them to get it.

[James II]

Just now, Starfuze said:

I’d personally like to thank CTO for providing this crucial information to us. We only had to declare on them to get it.

Listening could have worked to when they tried to talk to y'all about it. 😅

[Raphael]

14 hours ago, evilpiggyfoofoo said:

Good catch, I must have misclicked while getting this in by DC.

I want to really stress that if this were happening irl with a bank and a depositor, you guys would be on the hook so hard lol. This is starting to read a lot like the story of Enron.

Even your rebuttal to the CB is full of mistakes, misinformation, or just platitudes appealing for forgiveness citing human error.


I want to type up a longer reply but frankly I have no dog in this fight. Suffice to say, this was not the angle I would've personally gone with trying to defend myself. The people commenting that this is good are either skimming or lying.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Roberts

[Starfuze]

 

Just now, James II said:

Listening could have worked to when they tried to talk to y'all about it. 😅

You mean when we asked multiple times to provide us information and they refused to provide it? Lmfao

[James II]

2 minutes ago, Starfuze said:

 

You mean when we asked multiple times to provide us information and they refused to provide it? Lmfao

Didn't they try to give you 2.6 bil and time?

Edited June 11, 2023 by James II

[Krampus]

 

Just now, Roberts said:

I want to really stress that if this were happening irl with a bank and a depositor, you guys would be on the hook so hard lol. This is starting to read a lot like the story of Enron.

[Zei-Sakura Alsainn]

56 minutes ago, Roberts said:

I want to really stress that if this were happening irl with a bank and a depositor, you guys would be on the hook so hard lol. This is starting to read a lot like the story of Enron.

Even your rebuttal to the CB is full of mistakes, misinformation, or just platitudes appealing for forgiveness citing human error.


I want to type up a longer reply but frankly I have no dog in this fight. Suffice to say, this was not the angle I would've personally gone with trying to defend myself. The people commenting that this is good are either skimming or lying.

Yeah I was thinking this too. Plus it was over the course of nearly a year? Exam season isn't all year around and if this was supposedly an ongoing thing being handled the fact what is, as borg is increasingly showing, an incredible litany of errors, none of which were spotted over that time...?

Yeah no, honestly, this just makes HS's CB better. Im not sure why people think they need to respond. 

Here I thought people celebrated when incompetence was punished with a whacking, but it seems that only applies to micros and 'alliances' like WTF and Polaris. 

 

Even if 8b is still an off figure, well, I guess I'll just consider it the fee for royally fricking up, because those exist in the real world to on top of the initial paddling itself. 

 

Good to see an actual CB used for once, thanks for that HS. And props to CTO for trying what I assume was their best for a response, even though I don't think it was very good, public opinion seems to disagree with me right now lol.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Zei-Sakura Alsainn

[Pascal]

 

22 minutes ago, Zei-Sakura Alsainn said:

Even if 8b is still an off figure, well, I guess I'll just consider it the fee for royally fricking up, because those exist in the real world to on top of the initial paddling itself. 

Worry not, HS was only 5.5 billions off figure

Edited June 11, 2023 by Pascal

[evilpiggyfoofoo]

1 hour ago, Roberts said:

I want to really stress that if this were happening irl with a bank and a depositor, you guys would be on the hook so hard lol.

Yes, I admit that this sheet is not perfect to the decimal, the point was to show that HS's number is absurd. I had Krampus's loan data and a few hours to summarize everything and post a ROH. I am not 30 professional accountants working for Goldman Sachs with a quarter to grind out a 10Q, if you want to apply SEC standards to it, sure lol. But as Borg mentioned, even with the errors accounted for, it makes a minimal difference and far bridges the $8B gap. If we add in other costs and less conservative bond interest rate expense assumptions as detailed in tab 2, HS might have even less.

1 hour ago, Roberts said:

Suffice to say, this was not the angle I would've personally gone with trying to defend myself.

To keep my ROH concise I focused on HS's CB. But as others have pointed out, there is obviously a lot of problems with dogpile and ROI etc etc. So I will quote you:

[Darth Ataxia]

Before I make a few points, allow me to stress that @Darth Revanwill be offering our primary response to this otherwise laughable attempt to justify lying and reneging on your word. Kudos on being willing to post an RoH and attempt to argue back against the claims brought against Carthago. I would hope more alliances take note and follow your lead, albeit with more accuracy. 

You deserve a second kudos in addition to the first for this appears to be the first RoH that I'm aware of that supports the case of the attacking party rather than disparaging or weakening it.

22 hours ago, evilpiggyfoofoo said:

Relying their entire CB essentially on this one spit ball number threw out during exam season is a very weak claim

This would be a strong argument had Daveth not followed up two days later to assure us that payments would begin. Additionally the eight billion over eight months offer was the second offer amounting to eight billion. Please see our Statement of Facts points, 45 and 41 respectively. Krampus being in exam season is irrelevant given that he engaged in a meaningful manner and made an offer amounting to eight billion, twice. Exam season does not meet the bar for offer invalidation when these offers occur and then another Carthago member follows up to let us know payments would begin "asap". Thank you for assisting us in proving our first claim against you! "CTO knowingly backed out on the agreement between CTO and HS regarding the 8 billion paid over 8 months that was agreed to on February 8, 2023...."

 

Secondly, this post, in and of itself supports our fourth and fifth claims against you. This is the first time we are seeing any of this information despite asking about it a number of times and certainly the first time we are seeing it since you backed out on the deal that was made. Additionally, as you graciously point out, the bank was mismanaged to such an extent that it apparently lost a ton of capital, all without a peep from the CEO. Assuming that the numbers provided are accurate, this information was also never provided to HS upon request and clearly shows mismanagement at the least. "CTO, through Krampus, has mismanaged The Foundation generally through lack of staff, not updating documents, policies, or channels, not providing systems for Stakeholders to safely and adequately withdraw their investments...." and "CTO has refused to allow other Stakeholders to view bank documents that they have a right to access or would show that CTO has been conducting business in a foul fashion under the excuse that HS was looking to divest from the bank, ignoring the fact that HS had not yet divested from the bank....." Again, thank you for further justifying some of our claims!

 

22 hours ago, evilpiggyfoofoo said:

HS claims their 33% shares + half of defunct OWR shares gives them $8 billion

We claimed our 2.6 mil shares at the last reported share price by the CEO. Krampus made clear in his statements that OWR's shares were not split to HS and CTO but added to the bank capital. Of course, this is just an excuse for CTO to pocket OWR's money and gains. This is claim is just a lie, plain and simple. Please refer to the Statement of Facts.

 

22 hours ago, evilpiggyfoofoo said:

Last DM communication asking to talk about payment, one of many outreaches

Based on this date, I was with my wife while she was in labor. Apologies on not having Krampus' business acumen to make business deals while otherwise occupied. Had I made a business deal though, I understand that I would be held to it.  

 

That brings my limited response here to a close. As mentioned at the beginning, Revan will be responding to the bulk of this OP. Thank you guys again for helping confirm some of our CBs and leaving the remainder unaddressed. 

[SleepingNinja]

Just now, Darth Ataxia said:

Before I make a few points, allow me to stress that @Darth Revanwill be offering our primary response to this otherwise laughable attempt to justify lying and reneging on your word. Kudos on being willing to post an RoH and attempt to argue back against the claims brought against Carthago. I would hope more alliances take note and follow your lead, albeit with more accuracy. 

You deserve a second kudos in addition to the first for this appears to be the first RoH that I'm aware of that supports the case of the attacking party rather than disparaging or weakening it.

That's not entirely true at all. We have offered you the proper amount, you rejected that offer and while I understand where your frustration stems it's clear you jumped the gun and weren't interested in getting the full story as of the most recent discussions.

Quote

This would be a strong argument had Daveth not followed up two days later to assure us that payments would begin. Additionally the eight billion over eight months offer was the second offer amounting to eight billion. Please see our Statement of Facts points, 45 and 41 respectively. Krampus being in exam season is irrelevant given that he engaged in a meaningful manner and made an offer amounting to eight billion, twice. Exam season does not meet the bar for offer invalidation when these offers occur and then another Carthago member follows up to let us know payments would begin "asap". Thank you for assisting us in proving our first claim against you! "CTO knowingly backed out on the agreement between CTO and HS regarding the 8 billion paid over 8 months that was agreed to on February 8, 2023...."

The problem here is Krampus didn't take the time to do the math and his communication with you was somewhat poor that's definitely the biggest issue here. What he should have told you is that he may not have the time currently to look over the documents and to please get back to him after his Exam season was done. I'd also point out that it's frustrating your not understanding of how important education is and the value that these students pay large sums of money to be in school so they can get a good job or in a field they'll enjoy working in. We should all be on the same page when it comes to prioritizing aspects of real life. Let's also not forget that you conveniently forgot about this bank for 3 months after Nexus disbanded and I'd also question how, what and why the bank became what it was in the first place.

From my understanding OWR, HS, and CTO all contributed to opening this exclusively for their own members so my question here is why was the CEO position not a joint venture and everything left in Krampus' hands. I find it somewhat irresponsible of you to not have had your own representative as part of the venture to help keep track of these documents as well, Krampus does bear some blame but so do you and this response after 11 months from you is like your trying to say your blameless. As Roberts said 'disjointed attempts at collection/resolution' You bear at least 50% of the responsibility as communication is a 2-way street.

Quote

Secondly, this post, in and of itself supports our fourth and fifth claims against you. This is the first time we are seeing any of this information despite asking about it a number of times and certainly the first time we are seeing it since you backed out on the deal that was made. Additionally, as you graciously point out, the bank was mismanaged to such an extent that it apparently lost a ton of capital, all without a peep from the CEO. Assuming that the numbers provided are accurate, this information was also never provided to HS upon request and clearly shows mismanagement at the least. "CTO, through Krampus, has mismanaged The Foundation generally through lack of staff, not updating documents, policies, or channels, not providing systems for Stakeholders to safely and adequately withdraw their investments...." and "CTO has refused to allow other Stakeholders to view bank documents that they have a right to access or would show that CTO has been conducting business in a foul fashion under the excuse that HS was looking to divest from the bank, ignoring the fact that HS had not yet divested from the bank....." Again, thank you for further justifying some of our claims!

It's true that Krampus should have been more forthright with giving you the necessary info assuming your telling the truth and this isn't just another attempt of you covering up your lack of communication from your end as well so I'll give you that but this also leads back into my second point above. Again why was there no HS/OWR representatives as part of said joint venture with access to said documents. I feel like it's only right for 3 parties with 30% ownership to have someone with a hand in what's going on instead of relying entirely on Krampus and then putting 100% of the blame on him. I really don't understand why you believe someone that runs RON, this bank, is high gov in CTO and goes to university has the time to do everything everyday like this, there's a finite amount of time within a day and splitting the load only makes sense. This is all 3 alliances fault for placing everything on the shoulders of 1 player.

Quote

We claimed our 2.6 mil shares at the last reported share price by the CEO. Krampus made clear in his statements that OWR's shares were not split to HS and CTO but added to the bank capital. Of course, this is just an excuse for CTO to pocket OWR's money and gains. This is claim is just a lie, plain and simple. Please refer to the Statement of Facts.

 

This entire statement reeks of "We want our 2.6B and we want half of OWR's money as well" I don't need to say anything else about it as this entire statement reeks of greed. 

Quote

Based on this date, I was with my wife while she was in labor. Apologies on not having Krampus' business acumen to make business deals while otherwise occupied. Had I made a business deal though, I understand that I would be held to it.  

That's interesting. So it's okay when real life obstructs you but not okay when it does Krampus. Do I really need to point out how hypocritical that is? Congrats on the baby though but if it's not a good enough excuse for Krampus neither should it be for you by your own admission and needless to say that's disappointing going by your logic.

 

The bottom line is it's disingenuous of you to put all of the blame on CTO for this 11 month slog where

1. You forgot about it after Nexus broke up for a full 3 months.

2. Both sides clearly communicated within those next 8 months poorly.

3. Refused the 2.6B payment and left us on read because you didn't like that it wasn't the initial 8B which was a gross miscalculation & again poor communication from both sides.

4. From the creation of said 'bank' you didn't have anyone from your alliance involved with documentation. Very irresponsible of you frankly.

5. Decided not to bother ever bringing this to Piggies attention and just assumed she knew everything about the on goings of this private venture between HS-CTO-OWR. And before you say "we were told to talk to Krampus/Jax" your an independent leader of an independent alliance, stop acting like a puppet listening to what A and B say if nothing is happening and actually try option C first.

6. The constant flip-flopping for 8 months between interest and disinterest. You had enough interest that you wanted your money but not enough to be apart of it sounds pretty sus from where I'm standing. Also demanding part of OWR's share when you didn't put any of the work in from your end? No, your not entitled to OWR's shares at all. Imagine having a job, not showing up for a week and expecting to get paid for the work you didn't do. 

[darkblade]

26 minutes ago, SleepingNinja said:

The problem here is Krampus didn't take the time to do the math and his communication with you was somewhat poor that's definitely the biggest issue here. What he should have told you is that he may not have the time currently to look over the documents and to please get back to him after his Exam season was done. I'd also point out that it's frustrating your not understanding of how important education is and the value that these students pay large sums of money to be in school so they can get a good job or in a field they'll enjoy working in. We should all be on the same page when it comes to prioritizing aspects of real life. Let's also not forget that you conveniently forgot about this bank for 3 months after Nexus disbanded and I'd also question how, what and why the bank became what it was in the first place.

Trying to use Krampus's education as an excuse for why he failed to do his job and then trying to guilt trip House Stark over it is such a joke lmao. If Krampus didn't have time to do his job as the CEO of TF, then he should have stepped down and have someone else who had the time and dedication do it. Making that 8 billion dollar offer even if he was busy with exams is still on CTO. And before you try to tell me I have no idea what it's like to be a college student, I'm about to be a junior in college myself, so I know what's it's like having to multi-task different things and having to give up on certain projects in the pursuit of my education. So you should be ashamed of yourself for trying to play the guilt card.

Edited June 12, 2023 by darkblade

[SleepingNinja]

Just now, darkblade said:

Trying to use Krampus's education as an excuse for why he failed to do his job and then trying to guilt trip House Stark over it is such a joke lmao. If Krampus didn't have time to do his job as the CEO of TF, then he should have stepped down and have someone else who had the time and dedication do it. Making that 8 billion dollar offer even if he was busy with exams is still on CTO. And before you try to tell me I have no idea what it's like to be a college student, I'm about to be a junior in college myself, so I know what's it's like having to multi-task different things and having to give up on certain projects in the pursuit of my education. So you should be ashamed of yourself for trying to play the guilt card.

It's hilarious the point went completely over your head. Ataxia said in the same post that Krampus' education wasn't a good enough excuse and then proceeded to say he was busy with his own IRL stuff. I was pointing out hypocrisy of him saying it isn't okay when Krampus does it but it's okay for him. Maybe read the full post before replying with this type of nonsense lmao. 

[darkblade]

Just now, SleepingNinja said:

It's hilarious the point went completely over your head. Ataxia said in the same post that Krampus' education wasn't a good enough excuse and then proceeded to say he was busy with his own IRL stuff. I was pointing out hypocrisy of him saying it isn't okay when Krampus does it but it's okay for him. Maybe read the full post before replying with this type of nonsense lmao. 

You clearly can't read lmao. When Darth mentioned why he went inactive, he actually focused on IRL instead of trying to make a half-assed deal without knowing what the stock value was worth or how much money the bank actually had. Maybe you need to go back to school and learn how to read again.

Edited June 12, 2023 by darkblade

[Daveth]

23 minutes ago, darkblade said:

Snip

I generally think of you as a reasonable person, but the notion someone shouldn't let their IRL impede with the game is utterly out of bounds. Throughout this entire process, we have tried to adequately provide a solution throughout our busy lives (I'm a Law student working as a paralegal at a law firm).

Despite the utterly unacceptable comment, in so far as replacing Krampus, I questioned House Stark on the possibility and that conversation with regards to Revan (their Econ head) went nowhere - because the standards clearly only go one way.

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Daveth

[SleepingNinja]

Just now, darkblade said:

You clearly can't read lmao. When Darth mentioned why he went inactive, he actually focused on IRL instead of trying to make a deal without knowing what the stock value was worth. Maybe you need to go back to school and learn how to read again.

If that's the only point in the entire post you can dispute go ahead and move along as it's not indictive to the good forum discussions we've been having here. I'm simply helping to provide orbis with the entertainment that players keep pointing out is lacking. "You should be ashamed of yourself" for discouraging this kind of constructive discussion. 

[Daveth]

2 hours ago, Darth Ataxia said:

Snip

With regard to my attempt at assuring House Stark we'd handle the Foundation issue as soon as possible, I'm frankly starting to think I should stop treating people with the courtesy of letting them know I share their concerns and want to see the dispute resolved - which is what I'd think all my messages here amount to.

I was not imminently aware of what had been discussed beyond the fact they spoke, because I was in the middle of midterms and honestly couldn't help in financial matters I have no depth in while I was conducting merger talks, which is what I was working on, in case y'all didn't connect the dots with the timing.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Daveth

[darkblade]

Just now, SleepingNinja said:

If that's the only point in the entire post you can dispute go ahead and move along as it's not indictive to the good forum discussions we've been having here. I'm simply helping to provide orbis with the entertainment that players keep pointing out is lacking. "You should be ashamed of yourself" for discouraging this kind of constructive discussion. 

House Stark has already done a great job of destroying your RoH. So there's no reason for me to go and out of my way to defend them. However, I find it hilarious that you consider emotional manipulation "good forum discussions". I bet Krampus has a lot on his plate and I wish him luck and hope he get's the big fat degree he deserves, but I also feel sorry for him that his own members are trying to use his IRL situation as a college student to try and push an agenda in a nation simulator.

[SleepingNinja]

Just now, darkblade said:

House Stark has already done a great job of destroying your RoH. So there's no reason for me to go and out of my way to defend them. However, I find it hilarious that you consider emotional manipulation "good forum discussions". I bet Krampus has a lot on his plate and I wish him luck and hope he get's the big fat degree he deserves, but I also feel sorry for him that his own members are trying to use his IRL situation as a college student to try and push an agenda in a nation simulator.

I think you've had enough internet for one day. This is not even close to emotional manipulation. Leave it to a gen Z SJW to go full well SJW. I told you that I was pointing out a double standard, which is true. The focus on that part of the post was moreso asking why at the creation of said bank there wasn't an active participant from HS and OWR present or if there even was one at some point. You went full emotional posting accusing me of emotional manipulation and attacking my ability to read after I accused you of not fully reading my own post(contextually different), which at this point you've still failed to comprehend the point of what I brought up. I think it's better for you if you go take a break before replying again when your in a more calm place in your mind. I would be much happier to engage you in meaningful discussion on the rest of my post rather than you trying to take the focus off of the actual in game points I made. 

[darkblade]

6 minutes ago, Daveth said:

I generally think of you as a reasonable person, but the notion someone shouldn't let their IRL impede with the game is utterly out of bounds. Throughout this entire process, we have tried to adequately provide a solution throughout our busy lives (I'm a Law student working as a paralegal at a law firm).

Despite the utterly unacceptable comment, in so far as replacing Krampus, I questioned House Stark on the possibility and that conversation with regards to Revan (their Econ head) went nowhere - because the standards clearly only go one way.

Thank you Daveth, not many people say that about me lmao. But IRL can impede with the game and so can the opposite. And it's clear via the evidence that House Stark provided and the evidence that y'all provided that TF has been neglected. I don't know what that screenshot is supposed to mean lol. It seems you wanted to make some moves after replacing Krampus with this "other guy", but neither ever happened despite House Stark offering to have one of their low gov econ help out.

[Daveth]

Just now, darkblade said:

 

The screenshot proves what we're claiming, that Krampus was busy (we all lead busy lives) but was trying to make it work. That being the case, I explored the possibility of either putting someone else after asking if the head of Econ of House Stark, Revan would be willing to take on that responsibility - not sure how a low gov Econ can be trusted to manage billions like that, but they didn't follow up on that idea anyway.

In all, I think they're only interested when raking in the profit of large sums of money is involved, not really in the operational details or keeping up with the healthcare of the business we are supposedly in a partnership on. Throughout this post and their Statement of Facts I think that their desire for more money than we were willing to reasonably provide is fairly clear, per that document, which it seems few people read in interim.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Daveth