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Guilt by association?

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9 minutes ago, PDunny said:

Yeah delete the nation or anything gained from the money sent to him from NR, fine by me. I think something like that should be done to everyone who directly benefited from it. 

 

Banning was too far though. It's unreasonable to expect Blink to know everything his brother does. It's also far more plausible for his brother to not tell him so that the brother would have "bragging rights" about the rapid growth. If it was due to cheating than it would negate that portion of it. 

This bottom bit is very telling... We had equal growth until whenever this all started, yes I should of enquired about his great wealth (I had no idea about the scale) he only told me he taxed members 100% but I wrongly presumed it was from his trading network which I never got involved with and keno wins. 

Above all I wish to clear my name reseting my nation I can live with even if I feel it's unjustified but my reputation in game means more than anything else. That and war stats 😎

Edited by Blink

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I'm with you on this but every player that ends a forum post with his name while there's his profile on the left should be banned

Edited by Micchan
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Doesn't delete all cities/projects that NR gov built with the help of exploit. 

 

Bans Blink? 

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1 hour ago, Dio Brando said:

Should his nation have incurred a penalty in some manner? I'd go with yes. Banned? Probably too much. While there is a close relation between the two, and making a connection isn't all that unreasonable, the outcome of making that connection should likely not have been a complete ban. The deletion of a few cities, or resetting of his nation makes more sense. I'd hold out and see what Sheepy has to say about this, though. He didn't dish out the first deletions lightly, and I doubt he dished this one out without real cause.

I see no reason why "a few cities" should be deleted since all of his cities prior to number 19 (Edit: as far as I remember) were gained while he was in TKR and profiting from our loan programs that are based on our own bank funds. If people agree that a ban is too far and that he should just be punished in the form of removing what he gained through pooball, then that is city 19 and the NRF.

 

Another edit: I'm sure it won't make much of a difference @Alex but I have spent money on this game before as well and will cease to do so from now on.

Edited by Mitsuru
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4 hours ago, Blink said:

The ban is based on assumption, Alex knows we are separate people as he receives payment from two separate credit cards registered at two different home address's. 

 If he is unwilling to un ban my Home address then I expect a full refund for all credits and awards purchased. 

Pooball and myself are grown men who live in our own houses the only way we share an ID is when I leave work and he starts (we work opposite shifts) banning my work IP is fair but to ban my Home isn't. I'm not even asking for my nation back I'll happily reroll. 

The total nation ID 116741 Ruination received from nova was funding for a NRF and a 300m loan for City 19 as I was in arrgh at the time having a break from tkr. 

 

If this is true, I am likely going to have to hold off on any future purchases through PnW. I have two younger brothers who play the same and I would hate to be banned and lose the money I spent because of one of them, they are young and stupid and it's highly unlikely I'd be prewarned before they cheated.

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13 minutes ago, Machiavelli said:

 

If this is true, I am likely going to have to hold off on any future purchases through PnW. I have two younger brothers who play the same and I would hate to be banned and lose the money I spent because of one of them, they are young and stupid and it's highly unlikely I'd be prewarned before they cheated.

Or you could just tell them not to be stupid. I support Blink's unban, and will contribute to his rebuilding fund if he needs one, but part of the point of this is that sharing IPs and verifying them means you need to make sure you know and trust who else is on the IP.


Making explicit policy for collateral punishment due to IP overlap is a good idea, but there was no policy statement to date that Blink would have to suffer for his brother's sins.

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2 minutes ago, Inst said:

Or you could just tell them not to be stupid. I support Blink's unban, and will contribute to his rebuilding fund if he needs one, but part of the point of this is that sharing IPs and verifying them means you need to make sure you know and trust who else is on the IP.


Making explicit policy for collateral punishment due to IP overlap is a good idea, but there was no policy statement to date that Blink would have to suffer for his brother's sins.

I could tell them not to be stupid, but how many 14 and 18 year olds do you know who aren't stupid as frick? They're gonna do what they're gonna do, I'm lucky I guess that our IP only overlaps at some periods when I go home for holidays.

Edited by Machiavelli

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1 minute ago, Machiavelli said:

I could tell them not to be stupid, but how many 14 and 18 year olds do you know who aren't stupid as frick? They're gonna do what they're gonna do, I'm lucky I guess that our IP only overlaps at some periods when I go home for holidays.

Maybe don't take loans off someone you share an IP with

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1 minute ago, Machiavelli said:

I could tell them not to be stupid, but how many 14 and 18 year olds do you know who aren't stupid as frick? They're gonna do what they're gonna do, I'm lucky I guess that our IP only overlaps at some periods when I go home for holidays.

Ours overlapped when I would leave work and he come in, that's it. Once I was home we were both on different UID's. 

 

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1 minute ago, Blink said:

Ours overlapped when I would leave work and he come in, that's it. Once I was home we were both on different UID's. 

 

That's fricked up, definitely not going to do anything where I give money to PnW until I get a concrete statement regarding this

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4 minutes ago, Carter Burke said:

Maybe don't take loans off someone you share an IP with

This was an oversight on my part, but with extensive banking records in pnw I didn't think it would be a problem nor suspected it to be, as I did not know about the exploit at the time of borrowing. 

Edited by Blink

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No matter what, whatever any user finds out is that cheating is still wrong and action has to be taken upon. Poohball or Blink had something to do with it either way.

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Just now, Carter Burke said:

Maybe don't take loans off someone you share an IP with

Trading with people you share an IP with is already banned, and going through alliance banks is already grey area. Maybe it's just people who are more familiar with Nazi mods whose senior staff gets called Schutzstaffel (the Nazi SS), but there have been worse administrative abuses.

 

PnW, because of its fluid economic system, is extremely vulnerable to infinite resource abuses. In other games, the most you can do is operate multis to save you the trouble of working the game economy, but in this game 200 bn worth of RSS can be routed in seconds.

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1 minute ago, Blink said:

This was an oversight on my part, but with extensive banking records in pnw I didn't think it would be a problem nor suspected it to be, as I did not know about the expoilt at the time of borrowing. 

My point was that it's that which likely made him decide to ban, so in answer to the other dudes issue with sharing IP's with his family, try to have as little direct interaction as possible.

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Just now, Carter Burke said:

My point was that it's that which likely made him decide to ban, so in answer to the other dudes issue with sharing IP's with his family, try to have as little direct interaction as possible.

That was technically an indirect interaction. Blink received funds through the NR bank as a loan, which wasn't the same as direct trading. It's very onerous to avoid entire alliances because of IP overlap; alliances can have family in the same alliance.

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2 minutes ago, Inst said:

Trading with people you share an IP with is already banned, and going through alliance banks is already grey area. Maybe it's just people who are more familiar with Nazi mods whose senior staff gets called Schutzstaffel (the Nazi SS), but there have been worse administrative abuses.

 

PnW, because of its fluid economic system, is extremely vulnerable to infinite resource abuses. In other games, the most you can do is operate multis to save you the trouble of working the game economy, but in this game 200 bn worth of RSS can be routed in seconds.

We both know I don't play for my nations economy. 

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Just now, Blink said:

We both know I don't play for my nations economy. 

I'm sorry to say I couldn't get a Discord server up tasked specifically to countering you!

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Maybe I am missing something here

Blink who had gotten money unknowing how that money was made (like anyone who takes a loan) gets banned by Alex,  due to Alex thinking Blink knew, yet no punishment for Akuryo who we know for a fact knew well before hand and instead of reporting it, tries to blackmail Poo to boost his own alliance.

Personally if Blink cheated he should be banned, however if he did not cheat and got banned for knowing it and not reporting, i look forward to see many more banned.

Edited by Elijah Mikaelson
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There is a lot to unpack here. 

2 hours ago, Hariff said:

hats the point of getting verified if something like this is going to happen; not exactly reassuring - would suggest the whole verification system needs a complete overhaul as you have completely undermined your own methods.

The point of verification was never to deal with issues like these. It was meant to deal with rule breaking like multi'ing, shuffling resources for one player, declaring on the same target, etc. Doing things like timed actions aren't covered by verification. To say that the system has been undermined by @Alex doing something that isn't related to the area of jurisdiction the system possesses is a bit ridiculous.

2 hours ago, Hariff said:

While its obviously fair that Blink is investigated deletion is ridiculous especially since  it took so long for you to ban the actual offenders with much protest from the community  yet Blink is banned in one go with not a single person asking for him to be banned.

It is exactly because this was how this played out that I'm holding out further. He was reluctant to ban nations until he uncovered more evidence even when there was community pressure (a heck of a lot, at that) to do so; why would he suddenly ban someone that no one was asking for a ban of? It is because Sheepy has historically been known to be slow with administering bans and the lenient punishment that came before that makes me believe there is something more.

2 hours ago, HannaH said:

Banning someone on an assumption and no evidence whatsoever is a dangerous precedent. Where does it end? Can anyone now be banned because admin thinks we did something wrong? Watch out for the Thought Police! No evidence needed now. Just a good assumption.

Okay, I get where this is coming from, but the fatalistic attitude is a bit much. For one, saying there was 'no evidence' is a pretty big stretch. If you argued there was less evidence than one should require to ban a player, I absolutely would agree.

Two things,

  1. Pooball's nation had an IP collision (apparently at work) with Blink's nation. In a world where you assume nothing of one's character, two people sharing a blood relation would be seen as something that trumps playing a browser based nation sim. Expecting that some flow of information regarding this would occur from Pooball to Blink isn't unreasonable at all, either initiated by Pooball because of bragging rights (if I had the ability to spawn in x amount of the resources available to me at basically 0 cost, I would sure as frick brag about it at some point in time). Normally I agree that this does not constitute evidence enough to ban anyone, but it definitely would be enough to lock or at the very least delete cities;
  2. Blink received a sum of money from Pooball's nation. I don't know how substantial this was, but clearly it was enough for Sheepy to get involved;

Given that this is an anomalous action, I don't see where the 'where does it end' is coming from. Yes, literally anyone's access to the site can be terminated at any given point. But that doesn't happen, because Sheepy isn't totally nuts. Everytime someone is banned, it was because Sheepy thought they did something wrong lol. Let's not pretend people have been getting banned willy nilly for no reason.

Also, thought police? Jesus.

2 hours ago, HannaH said:

Banning Blink feels like handing him over to appease the angry mob rather than actually ruling fairly on the case.

What angry mob? Before Sheepy made the announcement, literally no one mentioned him even once here. For an angry mob to exist, it must be vocal. It was on other matters, I'm the last person who's going to contend that. 

Believing actions were unfair is expected. Telling moderation their course of action is wrong is valid. Defending someone is not objectionable. Issuing ultimatums is not

Hell,  currently think the ban should be reversed. I just don't get the fatalistic attitude surrounding this.

Edited by Dio Brando
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