Braunsberg Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 I'm actually starting to think Sheepy should lock this thread, haha - it's turned from a debate into a cage match. Dropping the "hahas", the way this is headed, someone is going to get his or her feelings hurt soon, if it hasn't already happened. It's one thing when the debate is strictly opinion versus opinion, but this has just become entirely personal. That may not be grounds to lock a thread, but this is really not headed in a good direction. Quote "Bibant, quoniam edere nolunt." ~ "Let them drink, since they do not wish to eat." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sailor Jerry Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Only in America is it cool to be a stupid bastard. ....and you live where exactly? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sailor Jerry Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Grow up and accept people for who they are. That can be the hardest part. Learning not to be a jackass Some food for thought you might too follow as well. Everyone has their own personal belief system....whatever it may be. Me personally....I'm against it, but I'm not going to go throw it around into everyone face. The main problem I have with issues like this one, is the fact that if folks are on opposite sides of the issue, then they think each other is being irrational, narrow minded and all that crap. One side gets mad and butt-hurt at the other side for not bending to their way of thinking which results into name calling and no one benefits from it. I know this is a debate thread/forum, but a little decorum and respectfulness will go a lot further then just acting like an ass and trying to brow beat the opposition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hysteria Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) To answer your first question I am a American bud. My family has been here since the early 1800's and fought in ever war from The civil war, Spanish American war, to the big ones WWI & II, and Vietnam. This doesn't make me any better than you just point it out. Some food for thought you might too follow as well. Everyone has their own personal belief system....whatever it may be. Me personally....I'm against it, but I'm not going to go throw it around into everyone face. The main problem I have with issues like this one, is the fact that if folks are on opposite sides of the issue, then they think each other is being irrational, narrow minded and all that crap. One side gets mad and butt-hurt at the other side for not bending to their way of thinking which results into name calling and no one benefits from it. I know this is a debate thread/forum, but a little decorum and respectfulness will go a lot further then just acting like an ass and trying to brow beat the opposition. I understand your view but frankly I'm tired of encountering people with you line of 1950's white guy thought. Do you ever think about why you think this way? Why it comes naturally to you to shit on a group of people just because they want to enjoy the same right as you and me do as heterosexual people. It's probably because you #1 have some sort of religious views #2 your parents/ family indoctrinated you with some bullshit when you were younger. Which leads me to my next points. You mistake my passion for butthurted ness. This is neither true or offends me so let's move . Because my side of the movement doesn't get butthurt. We get enraged when people don't want to educate themselves on the facts. The fact that you took time to address my posts in this thread show how truly misguided you are. You have ZERO RESPECT FOR YOU FELLOW HUMAN BEING I AM NOT GOING TO RESPECT YOU. It's time to grow the hell up. God/Jesus have been on vacation for 2000 years I doubt they will notice you giving some rights to gays. Again though I have nothing against you personally. I just want to show you you are wrong on this one. People will look back in their history books and wonder what the hell was wrong with us. Just like we do at the pro-slavery movement that lead to the south succeeding and the civil war. Nothing personal just want you to educate yourself, englighten your mind with some new ideas, question everything. This is America and I welcome any debate with my fellow citizens as this is what the USA is all about. Edited June 30, 2015 by Hysteria Quote ☾☆ Priest of Dio º¤ø„¤¤º°¨ ø„¸¸„¨ ø„¸¸„ø¤º°¨¨°º¤ø„¸¸„ø¤º°¨¨°º¤ø„¸¨°º¤ø„¸ GOD EMPEROR DIO BRANDO¨°º¤ø„¸¨°º¤ø„¸ DIO BRANDO GOD EMPEROR¨°º¤ø„¸¨°º¤ø„¤¤º°¨ ø„¸¸„¨ ø„¸¸„ø¤º°¨¨°º¤ø„¸¸„ø¤º°¨¨°º¤ø„¸ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odin Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 blablabla Read your text again. True it's the internet, but thats not the way to talk to people. And as far as i followed Coach's statements they were overall more on the liberal side. And my opinion of gays is... they can do whatever they want, as long as they remain out of the media since i prefer tits and beer before prosecco and willies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braunsberg Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) Read your text again. True it's the internet, but thats not the way to talk to people. And as far as i followed Coach's statements they were overall more on the liberal side. Liberal, not quite. Open-minded, yes. Therefore I applaud Coach for being moderate about things with his opinion. About that not being the way to talk to people, heck, you're a little late. There's more war here in this thread than on P&W right now. Edited June 30, 2015 by Roma Quote "Bibant, quoniam edere nolunt." ~ "Let them drink, since they do not wish to eat." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarke Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 But a homosexual one isn't because the genders don't work for babies? That's the thing here. Marriage isn't about making babies - it's about the relationship. Even throwing aside the numerous studies that have linked homosexuality to hormone levels (a "gay" gene has not yet been established or proven, but such hormone levels ARE linked directly to genes), the fact that many animal species exhibit homosexual behavior is yet another piece of information supporting the point that homosexuality is not a choice, but biological. And therefore it's as natural as any straight relationship, just not as common. Yes, the whole point of society is to breed and then die. What you just told us is that being gay is not adaptive. Which is true, for the same reason that you've stated. But if we go by your logic, I'm unnatural because I wear glasses, because that's a negative trait and without human technology my genes would hardly make it to the next generation, if at all. Things that are "natural" don't have to be suitable, logical, beneficial, or anything like that. They just have to be produced out of natural processes. Down syndrome and other unfortunate disabilities would effectively render the gene line of a human dead - so does that mean you would call people suffering from those disabilities unnatural? Just the same, being homosexual is perfectly natural because it results from biological processes. Adaptable or not, "moral" or not, gay people, near-sighted people, Down syndrome people, autistic people... they are all as natural as anyone else for that reason. By natural I mean as nature intended, everything you mention is merely a defect in the gene pool that doesn't advance the human species in any shape or form. It has no impact on marriage since marriage is merely a tradition created by humans and as you said those things aren't natural anyway so it makes no real difference if two gay people marry each other or if two straight people marry each other. The only argument against gays marrying is that it is breaking tradition which isn't necessarily a bad thing since keeping to traditions isn't always a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braunsberg Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) By natural I mean as nature intended, everything you mention is merely a defect in the gene pool that doesn't advance the human species in any shape or form. It has no impact on marriage since marriage is merely a tradition created by humans and as you said those things aren't natural anyway so it makes no real difference if two gay people marry each other or if two straight people marry each other. The only argument against gays marrying is that it is breaking tradition which isn't necessarily a bad thing since keeping to traditions isn't always a good thing. In nature, unless you are referring to "nature" as basically the same thing as God, nothing is "intended." It just happens. Genetic mutations, for example, are not "intended" - but some can be quite beneficial, while others dreadfully harmful. If everything proceeded as nature "intended," nothing would ever change because every generation would be a perfect copy of the last - no mutations, no mistakes. Perfect. That's not what the term "natural" means. With regards to your second statement, yes - marriage is not something you would consider "natural," since it is simply a man-made custom. My earlier arguments were simply to clarify that nothing about gay people is unnatural. And lastly, when it comes to breaking tradition, precisely: it isn't necessarily a bad thing. When a tradition becomes obsolete, other ideas and beliefs will come in its place to match the knowledge and culture which brings the change. If traditions were so rigidly adhered to, we would have no problem with public floggings, stoning, and basically murdering our own people because they make moral mistakes in their lives (not mistakes like serial killing (which really does warrant some harsh punishment), more like adultery and divorce). If you went back a couple thousand years to the Middle East and proclaimed that women should have equal rights to men and that everyone should be tolerant of other races and beliefs, you would have been ridiculed (if not just killed) and the same idea of our friend SeverusRyan's "slippery slope." But in a society that has no progressed beyond that point, such obsolete practices are now seen as horrid, inhumane and unfair - and much the same perspective (perhaps not so horrified) will arise when our culture has moved beyond the debate over gays' rights. ^And a nod, Clarke, to your being calm and collected with what you have to say. Unlike some people on this thread. Edited June 30, 2015 by Roma Quote "Bibant, quoniam edere nolunt." ~ "Let them drink, since they do not wish to eat." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarke Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 In nature, unless you are referring to "nature" as basically the same thing as God, nothing is "intended." It just happens. Genetic mutations, for example, are not "intended" - but some can be quite beneficial, while others dreadfully harmful. If everything proceeded as nature "intended," nothing would ever change because every generation would be a perfect copy of the last - no mutations, no mistakes. Perfect. That's not what the term "natural" means. No I don't mean God, but rather the path to final stage of our evolution as things that are intended as they're all things that will define our species. Sorry for the confusion, naturally occurring things that don't benefit the species wasn't what I was talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sailor Jerry Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 To answer your first question I am a American bud. My family has been here since the early 1800's and fought in ever war from The civil war, Spanish American war, to the big ones WWI & II, and Vietnam. This doesn't make me any better than you just point it out. I understand your view but frankly I'm tired of encountering people with you line of 1950's white guy thought. Do you ever think about why you think this way? Why it comes naturally to you to !@#$ on a group of people just because they want to enjoy the same right as you and me do as heterosexual people. It's probably because you #1 have some sort of religious views #2 your parents/ family indoctrinated you with some !@#$ when you were younger. Which leads me to my next points. You mistake my passion for butthurted ness. This is neither true or offends me so let's move . Because my side of the movement doesn't get butthurt. We get enraged when people don't want to educate themselves on the facts. The fact that you took time to address my posts in this thread show how truly misguided you are. You have ZERO RESPECT FOR YOU FELLOW HUMAN BEING I AM NOT GOING TO RESPECT YOU. It's time to grow the hell up. God/Jesus have been on vacation for 2000 years I doubt they will notice you giving some rights to gays. Again though I have nothing against you personally. I just want to show you you are wrong on this one. People will look back in their history books and wonder what the hell was wrong with us. Just like we do at the pro-slavery movement that lead to the south succeeding and the civil war. Nothing personal just want you to educate yourself, englighten your mind with some new ideas, question everything. This is America and I welcome any debate with my fellow citizens as this is what the USA is all about. First off, you know nothing about me, but you feel you need to jump to conclusions because once again, you just proved my point in regards to folks not agreeing with you. You make your assumptions, about how people are and this is my biggest hang-up. You say I'm of a 1950's mentality, or of a religious background or indoctrinated by my parents to think the way I do.....and then you have the audacity to say I have zero respect for my fellow human being. I'm doing my best to remain calm here but let me school you up on your few points. I'll give you possibly close to the 1950's mentality, I was born in '71, so in the grand scheme of things 12-20 years isn't that much of a stretch. Let me address the parents indoctrinating me....my parents were divorced when I was 4 and I lived with my mom until the summer before my senior at which point I moved to my dad's. During the time I was with my mom, she was usually working 2....sometimes 3 different jobs at one time, so there wasn't a lot of together time. When there was, I can assure you, we didn't sit around talking about this stuff. Has to me being religious, I only went to church on a few occasions while I was growing because, like I stated before, my mom was working here butt off just to put food on the table. The extent of my religiousness is a few of my friends and I decided it would be funny to get ourselves ordained by the online Universal Life Church so we could go around and call ourselves Reverend! To your last point about me having zero respect for my fellow human being.....this is where I draw the line. Granted it wasn't on the international stage, I served this great country that is called the United States of America for 20 years on active duty in the Navy. I've served at a forward deployed base (Yokosuka, Japan) for just over 3 years while assigned to a guided missile cruiser, 4 years out of Pearl Harbor, HI on a guided missile destroyer, 3 years on shore duty with NATO (SACLANT....Supreme Allied Commander of the Atlantic) out of Norfolk, VA followed by 3 more years in Norfolk on another guided missile destroyer. The other 7 years were spent at various training/repair facility commands. So basically is what I'm saying with all this is, I've spent 20 of my life....devoted to the service of our country so folks like you can say and do and live their lives as they see fit. So no, I guess I really do have zero respect for human beings....just out of curiosity, WTF have you done to make this country, or the world for that matter, a better place? So before you get all pissy with people for not agreeing with your train of thought.......F U C K Y O U! Everyone has the right to what they think and how they feel about things. Yes I agree, people will always disagree with each other....that's not the issue, its when people like you say people like me are misguided and close minded and not in a modern way of thinking.....let me tell you something, not everything that is modern is good or better than the way things used to be....and I'm not talking about this topic, I'm talking in generalities. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiber Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 No I don't mean God, but rather the path to final stage of our evolution as things that are intended as they're all things that will define our species. Sorry for the confusion, naturally occurring things that don't benefit the species wasn't what I was talking about. I really can't tell which side you are for here based on your comments. I just wanted to say that if you are in fact arguing against homosexuality, it makes your Legend of Korra sig extremely ironic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordRahl2 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Coach, why do you feel your time in the service gives you 'respect for human beings'? Seems generally irrelevant. Quote -signature removed for rules violation- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buorhann Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 This is priceless. Some good debates, but wow - those gems in the rough... priceless. 1 Quote Warrior of Dio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfPCFQfOnLg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sailor Jerry Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) Coach, why do you feel your time in the service gives you 'respect for human beings'? Seems generally irrelevant. Like I said earlier, it might not be on an international scale for ALL human beings, but for the human beings that live in the U.S., I spent 20 years of my life defending the freedoms that we love so much in this country. If folks like me didn't standup for those who couldn't or wouldn't, then this country would be singing an entirely different tune. We could very possibly be under British rule, French, Spanish, Mexican, Japanese, German or any other of the various nations who have wanted to rule over us for the past few centuries. Would we have been any better off if we had stayed under British rule or any of the other ones....who knows. What I do know, is the laws that govern us now, I spent 20 years defending them in different and varying capacities. Yes, I volunteered to do it and that was my decision. I feel great about myself for what I believe was standing up for the human beings in the U.S. to help defend their rights as well, so they can have their 1st amendment, their 2nd amendment, etc., etc. Now, if I was 18 again, right now and in the exact same life situation as I was in coming out of high school, even with all the changes that have happened since 1989 (when I first entered the military) I would do it all over again. I would go in, take the oath of enlistment (well, this time I'd probably go NROTC and go in as an officer......retire with a better pension that way) and do my 20 years all over again. Why....because I feel it was the right thing to do and I and proud to call myself a "Retired Navy Veteran" My time in the service didn't "give" me respect for human beings, I had (and still do)respect for human beings and that is why I joined the Navy. Just because I disagree with a persons point of view, or their way of life, doesn't mean I disrespect them. It's when their believes and way of life start getting thrown in my face is when I start having a problem. Sure folks have the right to do it, but they shouldn't get all !@#$y and offended if I fire back with my believes and my way of life.....to get respect, you have give respect.....it's not just something you can put a quarter in gum-ball machine, turn the knob and.....oh look, a little plastic container with some respect! EDIT: 500th post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yeah Me!!!!! Edited June 30, 2015 by Coach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordRahl2 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Yeah...honestly get over yourself a bit. Being in the service does not really say that much about you or anyone. There are plenty of bigots, racists, and general retards in the service. I am not saying you are any of those but service does not imply relevance in this discussion in any way. Honestly, although this is off topic a bit, people who shove their service in other peoples' faces to try to gain some sort of moral high ground annoy me. It feels like you are doing that here. I am glad you are proud of it and you should hold on to that. Here, talking about it in the manner you have is out of place in my opinion. Quote -signature removed for rules violation- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buorhann Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Yeah...honestly get over yourself a bit. Being in the service does not really say that much about you or anyone. There are plenty of bigots, racists, and general retards in the service. I am not saying you are any of those but service does not imply relevance in this discussion in any way. Honestly, although this is off topic a bit, people who shove their service in other peoples' faces to try to gain some sort of moral high ground annoy me. It feels like you are doing that here. I am glad you are proud of it and you should hold on to that. Here, talking about it in the manner you have is out of place in my opinion. To be fair, I think Hysteria brought up the whole family in the service bit first which is probably what caused him to reply as such. Just speculation though. 1 Quote Warrior of Dio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfPCFQfOnLg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordRahl2 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 I must have missed that. In that case my comment includes Hysteria. Quote -signature removed for rules violation- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sailor Jerry Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Yeah...honestly get over yourself a bit. Being in the service does not really say that much about you or anyone. There are plenty of bigots, racists, and general retards in the service. I am not saying you are any of those but service does not imply relevance in this discussion in any way. Honestly, although this is off topic a bit, people who shove their service in other peoples' faces to try to gain some sort of moral high ground annoy me. It feels like you are doing that here. I am glad you are proud of it and you should hold on to that. Here, talking about it in the manner you have is out of place in my opinion. Once again my point is proven. Nobody likes it if something they don't believe in or like is thrown in their face. I wasn't trying to gain any sort of moral high ground and would have never brought it up in this thread unless you and others hadn't tried calling me out on it. The description of my naval service was in direct response to the question you asked me. You are entitled to your opinions and that's fine, that's what the U.S. is all about, being able to display and act on your opinions and feelings on pretty much whatever topic you wish. Your acting as if, since I'm not of your train of thought then I'm in the wrong. Its thinking like this that makes me laugh. "Look at me, I'm so wonderful for being so open minded and loving everything and blah, blah, blah. Wait, you believe in different ways and do different things than I do....well screw you....I look down my nose at you....you are lower than the dirt on my shoes for believing the way I do!!!" Also I'm assuming that by your second sentence that you have never served in the armed forces? If not, that's ok....its not for everyone weather not being medically able to or just your own personal believes, either way, I don't take issue with any of them. I was trying to explain how I was showing my respect for human beings. Which was to do 20 years of service, putting my life on the line (rarely, but has happened) so folks back here can (I'm going to steal a movie line here) "live under the blanket of freedom that I have helped to provide". (If you didn't know......A Few Good Men) What have you done to show respect for human beings? Just curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WISD0MTREE Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 The only thing you did was make yourself look more like an imbecile. Please try again later Your IQ is under 70. Please come back when your head is not up your own a$$ All you did was say that I was wrong and didn't prove anything. TIME FOR SOME EDUCATION [citation needed intensifies] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordRahl2 Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Maybe I am a little hazy on how time stamps work in this forum. However, this: "I served this great country that is called the United States of America for 20 years on active duty in the Navy. I've served at a forward deployed base (Yokosuka, Japan) for just over 3 years while assigned to a guided missile cruiser, 4 years out of Pearl Harbor, HI on a guided missile destroyer, 3 years on shore duty with NATO (SACLANT....Supreme Allied Commander of the Atlantic) out of Norfolk, VA followed by 3 more years in Norfolk on another guided missile destroyer. The other 7 years were spent at various training/repair facility commands. So basically is what I'm saying with all this is, I've spent 20 of my life....devoted to the service of our country so folks like you can say and do and live their lives as they see fit. So no, I guess I really do have zero respect for human beings....just out of curiosity, WTF have you done to make this country, or the world for that matter, a better place?" Looks like it was posted before I asked you my question. So no, it was not in response to my question. And, yeah, that reads precisely like you are trying to gain a moral high ground. Maybe that was not your intention but it absolutely comes across that way. Lastly, Coach said: "I'm assuming". You should avoid that. You will end end up looking like an ass. Quote -signature removed for rules violation- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sailor Jerry Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) Damn double posts from my tablet....I like the second one better......disregard this one! Edited July 1, 2015 by Coach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sailor Jerry Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Maybe I am a little hazy on how time stamps work in this forum. However, this: "I served this great country that is called the United States of America for 20 years on active duty in the Navy. I've served at a forward deployed base (Yokosuka, Japan) for just over 3 years while assigned to a guided missile cruiser, 4 years out of Pearl Harbor, HI on a guided missile destroyer, 3 years on shore duty with NATO (SACLANT....Supreme Allied Commander of the Atlantic) out of Norfolk, VA followed by 3 more years in Norfolk on another guided missile destroyer. The other 7 years were spent at various training/repair facility commands. So basically is what I'm saying with all this is, I've spent 20 of my life....devoted to the service of our country so folks like you can say and do and live their lives as they see fit. So no, I guess I really do have zero respect for human beings....just out of curiosity, WTF have you done to make this country, or the world for that matter, a better place?" Looks like it was posted before I asked you my question. So no, it was not in response to my question. And, yeah, that reads precisely like you are trying to gain a moral high ground. Maybe that was not your intention but it absolutely comes across that way. Lastly, Coach said: "I'm assuming". You should avoid that. You will end end up looking like an ass. Lets talk about looking like an ass. Your post posing the question was number 137, my response was number 139....almost 38 minutes later, whats so had to figure out? Also the fact that you didn't do an actual quote of my post which would have shown my timestamp is a little weird. So not only are your basic math skills....and your ability to tell the difference between two different times, is seems that you are also trying to be decietfull. So looking like an ass.....the ball is in your court! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sailor Jerry Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Crap.....I know I'll be too late to delete my last post.....I just realized I was looking at the wrong set of posts......my bad! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordRahl2 Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 (edited) I served this great country that is called the United States of America for 20 years on active duty in the Navy. I've served at a forward deployed base (Yokosuka, Japan) for just over 3 years while assigned to a guided missile cruiser, 4 years out of Pearl Harbor, HI on a guided missile destroyer, 3 years on shore duty with NATO (SACLANT....Supreme Allied Commander of the Atlantic) out of Norfolk, VA followed by 3 more years in Norfolk on another guided missile destroyer. The other 7 years were spent at various training/repair facility commands. So basically is what I'm saying with all this is, I've spent 20 of my life....devoted to the service of our country so folks like you can say and do and live their lives as they see fit. So no, I guess I really do have zero respect for human beings....just out of curiosity, WTF have you done to make this country, or the world for that matter, a better place? Coach, why do you feel your time in the service gives you 'respect for human beings'? Seems generally irrelevant. I will give you time to edit. Edited July 1, 2015 by LordRahl2 1 Quote -signature removed for rules violation- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tali Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 I will give you time to edit. Ayyy lmao. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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