Religion

[Doktor Avalanche]

What? No Asatru on the list?

[Denver_old]

Why the heck atheism is voted? It should not be there because it is not a religion!?

[Lan]

Why the heck atheism is voted? It should not be there because it is not a religion!?

*Whips out the dictionary*

 

There are many atheist religions. Atheism is not defined as a lack of religion. It is specifically defined as a lack of belief in Gods, whereas the definition of religion is not synonymous with a belief in God. Lavey Satanism is a good example of atheist religion. 

[Livius Clades]

Taoism and Confucianism are more like philosophies.  

[Kadin]

Proud anti-theist.

[Lan]

Taoism and Confucianism are more like philosophies.  

They are religions. I am looking at the definition of the word right now. 

"Let us pray all do the same before talking ignorance."

 

1. A religion is an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to an order of existence. Many religions have narratives, symbols, and sacred histories that aim to explain the meaning of life, the origin of life, or the Universe.

    

Source: Wikipedia

 

Physics, by definition, is a religion. So there.......

[SythKingdom]

can you prove god doesn't exist and bible isn't real?

 

oh no, you can't. so you can see it's a message and you ignore it.

 

yes. the capitalist have corrupted. but come revolution, we will destroy the capitalist system and make one world gov under maoist state

 

Just telling you. As to what I have read about "Bible", it is a holy book that is created not by God but by mortal man.

Jesus Christ is actually a mortal man. Nothing more than that. 

 

I can't prove God doesn't exist. Perhaps, I can't prove Bible is real because as to what I have heard about Bible, it has been "changed", "revised" for quite so many times. Correct me if I am mistake at this point. But this is what I heard.

[Thalmor]

Just telling you. As to what I have read about "Bible", it is a holy book that is created not by God but by mortal man.

 

It was physically written by man, yes, but God authored it and told them what to put. This is known as the Doctrine of Inspiration:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_inspiration

 

 

Jesus Christ is actually a mortal man. Nothing more than that.

 

If that's so, then why did, say, Paul the Apostle go out and establish churches? What would encourage a simple fisherman to throw away his entire life and pick up the teachings of a possible rambling mad man (who was hated by his own religious figures [The Pharisees]) and travel to foreign places hundreds of miles away from home with no certainty that people would even accept what he was saying?

 

It is written in Scripture that Jesus states he will rise again on the third day. If he didn't, then what would've convince Paul the Apostle to do all that?

 

 

I can't prove God doesn't exist.

 

Exactly, I can't prove that he exists either. That's why faith in such a huge part of Christianity. You have to abandon the idea that ''If I can't see it, then it probably isn't real'' and accept that things both happen outside human understanding and outside human comprehension.

 

 

Perhaps, I can't prove Bible is real because as to what I have heard about Bible, it has been "changed", "revised" for quite so many times. Correct me if I am mistake at this point. But this is what I heard.

 

No, there's a lot of different ''kinds'' of Scripture. Although the differences between them are arguable at worst. The only really dividing thing to consider with the Bible is what constitutes a Book that's Inspired (see above) and what's not.

 

I'm a Baptist, so I consider the King James Version to be the best. Down here where I am, there are some people/churches that hold the K.J.V. Bible to be the only ''real'' Bible and that everything else is literally Satan. Whereas the more normal churches consider other Bibles (as long as they're within Anglican canon) to be alright.

 

See, early on in between the time when the church first was established and to the time where it was only a few hundred years old, they met a bunch of times to decide what ''Books'' were canonical (and is, inspired, which I already covered) and which were not. That's also where the Apocrypha comes from. The Eastern Orthodox denominations also hold a few more books to be canonical.

Edited July 26, 2015 by Thalmor

[Solomon]

...

You have to abandon the idea that ''If I can't see it, then it probably isn't real'' and accept that things both happen outside human understanding and outside human comprehension.

...

When you consider that, whatever the origin of the message, it came to you via other people (either through what they wrote or what they told you), accepting that the message they gave you is either inexorably outside your understanding or your comprehension is an invitation to charlatans.

[Thalmor]

When you consider that, whatever the origin of the message, it came to you via other people (either through what they wrote or what they told you), accepting that the message they gave you is either inexorably outside your understanding or your comprehension is an invitation to charlatans.

 

Yes, it is. I'm not saying that the scientific method must give way to rampant superstition in order for the Gospel to proceed. But in order to be a Christian, you must believe, on it's face, that a deity came to Earth partially has a human, died, came back to life, loves you (a fallible, stupid, insignificant-to-the-universe person*) unconditionally, and created a series of laws not governed by humans that was at one time broken by you. All that is a little hard to believe by 21st century academic standards.

 

*Not actually insulting you personally, but there are some people in society who hold to the idea that all humans are just plain awful.

[martiy]

Yes, it is. I'm not saying that the scientific method must give way to rampant superstition in order for the Gospel to proceed. But in order to be a Christian, you must believe, on it's face, that a deity came to Earth partially has a human, died, came back to life, loves you (a fallible, stupid, insignificant-to-the-universe person*) unconditionally, and created a series of laws not governed by humans that was at one time broken by you. All that is a little hard to believe by 21st century academic standards.

 

*Not actually insulting you personally, but there are some people in society who hold to the idea that all humans are just plain awful.

 

 

I think you did a good job of summing it up. While I agree that a lot of people may find it hard to believe, the alternative of there being no creator is just as hard to believe as well. The 'Big Bang': That there was nothing, and nothing happened to nothing which caused nothing to explode for no reason creating everything. 

 

For those that remain skeptical about God and about Jesus, ask yourself this question:

 

What would it take for you to believe?

 

While many people are quick to deny anything that could serve as 'proof' of a God, they never once stop to ask themselves, well what kind of 'proof' would it take?

 

Maybe something dramatic, like seeing God? Because that's what God did when he sent Jesus, God in a humanly body to earth to give the blind sight, raise the dead, and walk upon water so that all would believe. And it worked - a great deal of people saw and believed. And they recorded it the only way they could at the time, by writing what they had seen happen. And these recordings were later compiled to form great portions of the Bible.

 

Many people back then, just like now, were in great disbelief there could be a greater power. They needed a miracle. God gave them one. But that was a long time ago. Time passes, people forget. They become skeptical of the written recordings of what happened. They begin to deny it ever happened and try to search for a new meaning, going back to square one, wondering if a God exists?

 

 

So I guess my question for everyone here is, what would it take for you to believe? If it is something as dramatic as seeing God, or if you need a sign that puts your mind to ease....well why not ask with a prayer? Can't hurt to try.  God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. He remains the same. If he was willing to show great signs and miracles thousands of years ago so people would believe, he's still more than willing to do it for you. Just ask

Edited July 26, 2015 by martiy

[Joshua Granger]

I believe in science and logic myself, however,i will not sit here and say any one religion is right or wrong. Everyone should believe what they want and not tell anyone else how to think on the matter. 

 

On another note, humans are always looking for answers. why was the earth created, why are we here?! all good questions, humans want to know these things because knowing why brings comfort, henceforth every religion ever. There is absolutely no way we can ever know without a shadow of a doubt if god is real or not, so just believe what makes you feel comfortable. 

[Big Brother]

So I guess my question for everyone here is, what would it take for you to believe? If it is something as dramatic as seeing God, or if you need a sign that puts your mind to ease....well why not ask with a prayer? Can't hurt to try.  God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. He remains the same. If he was willing to show great signs and miracles thousands of years ago so people would believe, he's still more than willing to do it for you. Just ask

 

Even if there was a god or some kind of godlike entity that proved itself to be real beyond all reasonable doubt, why should I live my life for it? Why should I believe in its ways and not my own, why follow it instead of making my own way? Why should I care if it created everyone and everything and is the ultimate being? None of those things matter to me and I have no interesting in dedicating my life to someone or something else, regardless of what this being is or what it has accomplished. As long as I have free will, I have better things to do.

 

And if this god of yours is the Christian god and what your Bible says about him is true, then he's a total douchebag and doesn't deserve to have anyone following him or worshiping him. Seriously, he's just the worst.

[Thalmor]

 

''Even if there was a god or some kind of godlike entity that proved itself to be real beyond all reasonable doubt...''

 

God doesn't step out of the light and show himself to mankind because then we couldn't make the decision to follow him on our own. He wants his creation to follow him willingly and on their own. He isn't going to make you follow him, he isn't going to force you to obey him.

 

 

''...why should I live my life for it? Why should I believe in its ways and not my own, why follow it instead of making my own way?''

 

Do you know how to get 100% out of every single moment of your life? Do you know the best way to help the people around you right now? You don't, you couldn't possibly know. To be able to get more out of life, it would only be natural to cling to the person - and his teachings - who do know.

 

 

Why should I care if it created everyone and everything and is the ultimate being?

 

You literally just said ''I don't care if you hold all power in the universe and all of it's secrets.'' - Think about that.

 

 

None of those things matter to me and I have no interesting in dedicating my life to someone or something else, regardless of what this being is or what it has accomplished.

 

Christ's orders in the New Testament is basically ''Love God, love your fellow man, be honest, work hard, and don't act like an idiot.''

 

Christianity doesn't require anything to follow. You don't have to do anything but be a good person.

 

 

 

As long as I have free will, I have better things to do.

 

That is exactly the same mindset Adam had in the Garden of Eden. That is exactly the same mindset that dooms so many people to a fate worse than death because they don't stop for even a moment to think of something other than themselves in the grand scheme of things.

 

 

And if this god of yours is the Christian god and what your Bible says about him is true, then he's a total douchebag and doesn't deserve to have anyone following him or worshiping him. Seriously, he's just the worst.

 

God gave humans everything, and man still screwed up. They kept screwing up for thousands of years afterwards, and God finally sends his son to come save us so that we don't have to suffer eternal pain and torment. His son, by the way, preached nothing but love and tolerance, and yet despite this, you still call him a douchebag and ''the worst''. Nevermind Islam, which in the past century is just killing people left and right. Nevermind Scientology, which advocates the harassment of people who criticize them (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_%28Scientology%29). No, it's the Christian God that's evil.

 

I also think it's interesting how you responded to a rather polite message by directly insulting the deity that that person believes in, that's classless.

 

[martiy]

Even if there was a god or some kind of godlike entity that proved itself to be real beyond all reasonable doubt, why should I live my life for it? Why should I believe in its ways and not my own, why follow it instead of making my own way? Why should I care if it created everyone and everything and is the ultimate being? None of those things matter to me and I have no interesting in dedicating my life to someone or something else, regardless of what this being is or what it has accomplished. As long as I have free will, I have better things to do.

 

And if this god of yours is the Christian god and what your Bible says about him is true, then he's a total douchebag and doesn't deserve to have anyone following him or worshiping him. Seriously, he's just the worst.

 

 

When the Roman soldiers were crucifying Jesus and torturing him for hours on end, Jesus didn't curse them. He didn't speak harshly towards them. With all the power invested in him, He didn't promise revenge.

 

No, he looked up at the sky and said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." He didn't die just for his friends, but for his enemies as well, so their sins, no matter what they were (even if it was murdering him), could be forgiven. That was how deep his love and compassion was. And this was just one of many of the kindest acts you will ever hear anyone do.

 

 

I can kind of understand where you're coming from though, many times before I've felt mad at God for whatever's happened in my life, but once I got to know Him more, my perspective changed completely. 

Edited July 26, 2015 by martiy

[Big Brother]

When the Roman soldiers were crucifying Jesus and torturing him for hours on end, Jesus didn't curse them. He didn't speak harshly towards them. With all the power invested in him, He didn't promise revenge.

 

No, he looked up at the sky and said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." He didn't die just for his friends, but for his enemies as well, so their sins, no matter what they were (even if it was murdering him), could be forgiven. That was how deep his love and compassion was. And this was just one of many of the kindest acts you will ever hear anyone do.

 

 

I can kind of understand where you're coming from though, many times before I've felt mad at God for whatever's happened in my life, but once I got to know Him more, my perspective changed completely. 

 

None of that means anything to me, the very existence of Jesus Christ is ambiguous. I'm not mad at god, because I don't believe in the existence of something like that. If I'm mad at anything or anyone, it's people who try to dupe people into believing age old superstitions and lunacy.

 

Do you know how to get 100% out of every single moment of your life? Do you know the best way to help the people around you right now? You don't, you couldn't possibly know. To be able to get more out of life, it would only be natural to cling to the person - and his teachings - who do know.

 

What makes you think I want to get 100% out of every single moment of my life or that I want to help the people around me? And even so, no one needs a god or gods to get more out of life or to help anyone, least of all me. If anyone holds the answer to what you want to do in life, it's yourself.

 

You literally just said ''I don't care if you hold all power in the universe and all of it's secrets.'' - Think about that.

 

Those secrets wouldn't necessarily have much of an impact on anything and anyone. I don't believe that anything any deity could tell us is something we couldn't figure out on our own. As for the power, unless I can get that power for myself, I'm not interested, and I'm certainly not going to worship anyone for it.

 

Christ's orders in the New Testament is basically ''Love God, love your fellow man, be honest, work hard, and don't act like an idiot.''

 

Christianity doesn't require anything to follow. You don't have to do anything but be a good person.

 

Wonderful, so we can get rid of all these superstitions, the papacy, special tax statuses, bombing abortion clinics, enforcing Christian morality upon others and trying to convert people. Oh joy.

 

That is exactly the same mindset Adam had in the Garden of Eden. That is exactly the same mindset that dooms so many people to a fate worse than death because they don't stop for even a moment to think of something other than themselves in the grand scheme of things.

 

I'm very concerned with the grand scheme of things, and I believe in things and ideals that are far larger than myself.

 

If you had thought about the big picture yourself, then you would know humanity, our entire history, culture, every philosophy and idea we've ever had, is insignificant on the cosmic scale. Nothing any human being has done or ever will do will have any lasting impact, and the thought that any deity would pay the slightest attention to us, is just funny. Let me share something with you:

 

"Once upon a time, in some out of the way corner of that universe which is dispersed into numberless twinkling solar systems, there was a star upon which clever beasts invented knowing. That was the most arrogant and mendacious minute of "world history," but nevertheless, it was only a minute. After nature had drawn a few breaths, the star cooled and congealed, and the clever beasts had to die. One might invent such a fable, and yet he still would not have adequately illustrated how miserable, how shadowy and transient, how aimless and arbitrary the human intellect looks within nature. There were eternities during which it did not exist. And when it is all over with the human intellect, nothing will have happened." - Friedrich Nietzsche, On Truth and Lie in an Extra-Moral Sense (1873)

 

“We all know that any emotional bias -- irrespective of truth or falsity -- can be implanted by suggestion in the emotions of the young, hence the inherited traditions of an orthodox community are absolutely without evidential value.... If religion were true, its followers would not try to bludgeon their young into an artificial conformity; but would merely insist on their unbending quest for truth, irrespective of artificial backgrounds or practical consequences. With such an honest and inflexible openness to evidence, they could not fail to receive any real truth which might be manifesting itself around them. The fact that religionists do not follow this honourable course, but cheat at their game by invoking juvenile quasi-hypnosis, is enough to destroy their pretensions in my eyes even if their absurdity were not manifest in every other direction.†- H.P. Lovecraft, Against Religion: The Atheist Writings of H.P. Lovecraft (2010)

 

"The very fact that religions are not content to stand on their own feet, but insist on crippling or warping the flexible minds of children in their favour, forms a sufficient proof that there is no truth in them. If there were any truth in religion, it would be even more acceptable to a mature mind than to an infant mind—yet no mature mind ever accepts religion unless it has been crippled in infancy. … The whole basis of religion is a symbolic emotionalism which modern knowledge has rendered meaningless & even unhealthy. Today we know that the cosmos is simply a flux of purposeless rearrangement amidst which man is a wholly negligible incident or accident. There is no reason why it should be otherwise, or why we should wish it otherwise. All the florid romancing about man's "dignity", "immortality", &c. &c. is simply egotistical delusions plus primitive ignorance. So, too, are the infantile concepts of "sin" or cosmic "right" & "wrong". Actually, organic life on our planet is simply a momentary spark of no importance or meaning whatsoever. Man matters to nobody except himself. Nor are his "noble" imaginative concepts any proof of the objective reality of the things they visualise. Psychologists understand how these concepts are built up out of fragments of experience, instinct, & misapprehension. Man is essentially a machine of a very complex sort, as La Mettrie recognised nearly 2 centuries ago. He arises through certain typical chemical & physical reactions, & his members gradually break down into their constituent parts & vanish from existence. The idea of personal "immortality" is merely the dream of a child or savage. However, there is nothing anti-ethical or anti-social in such a realistic view of things. Although meaning nothing in the cosmos as a whole, mankind obviously means a good deal to itself. Therefore it must be regulated by customs which shall ensure, for its own benefit, the full development of its various accidental potentialities. It has a fortuitous jumble of reactions, some of which it instinctively seeks to heighten & prolong, & some of which it instinctively seeks to shorten or lessen. Also, we see that certain courses of action tend to increase its radius of comprehension & degree of specialised organisation (things usually promoting the wished-for reactions, & in general removing the species from a clod-like, unorganised state), while other courses of action tend to exert an opposite effect. Now since man means nothing to the cosmos, it is plan that his only logical goal (a goal whose sole reference is to himself) is simply the achievement of a reasonable equilibrium which shall enhance his likelihood of experiencing the sort of reactions he wishes, & which shall help along his natural impulse to increase his differentiation from unorganised force & matter." - H.P. Lovecraft, Letter to Natalie H. Wooley (2 May 1936), in Selected Letters V, 1934-1937 edited by August Derleth and Donald Wandrei, pp. 240-241.

 

 

God gave humans everything, and man still screwed up. They kept screwing up for thousands of years afterwards, and God finally sends his son to come save us so that we don't have to suffer eternal pain and torment. His son, by the way, preached nothing but love and tolerance, and yet despite this, you still call him a douchebag and ''the worst''. Nevermind Islam, which in the past century is just killing people left and right. Nevermind Scientology, which advocates the harassment of people who criticize them (https://en.wikipedia...e_(Scientology)). No, it's the Christian God that's evil.

 

I also think it's interesting how you responded to a rather polite message by directly insulting the deity that that person believes in, that's classless.

 

Let's assume what you've written is true.

We didn't ask to be created, or given anything. If man screwed up, it's because god made us this way. We didn't ask to be saved, and why would we need saving if the almighty god is looking after us? And yeah, your dead god is a douchebag (don't worry, the other ones are too), let's have Mark Twain explain you why:

 

"A God who could make good children as easily as bad, yet preferred to make bad ones; who could have made every one of them happy, yet never made a single happy one; who made them prize their bitter life, yet stingily cut it short; who gave his angels eternal happiness unearned, yet required his other children to earn it; who gave his angels painless lives, yet cursed his other children with biting miseries and maladies of mind and body; who mouths justice and invented hell--mouths mercy and invented hell--mouths Golden Rules, and forgiveness multiplied by seventy times seven, and invented hell; who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man's acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him!..." - Mark Twain, The Mysterious Stranger (1916)

 

Such a douchebag.

 

You can be as polite as you want towards me about religion, I'm still going to spit on it. It means nothing to me, it has no value, I don't respect it and if it was up to me, it wouldn't exist at all. I'm not sorry for insulting your imaginary friend. To spread lies and deceive so many people about the nature of the universe, of humanity and morality, is disgusting and I have no tolerance for it.

[WISD0MTREE]

I don't respect it

And this is why I stayed out of this thread. 

[Livius Clades]

To be honest I'm not religious. But if I was to state my religion it would be Weeaboism. I put Shinto as this was the closest to the true faith. lol  Or would saying I'm an Otaku put it better. Hmmmm this deserves thought provoking discussion. 

Edited July 27, 2015 by Livius Clades

[Spite]

Big Brother, I understand you get worked up about this stuff but I hope you didn't just try to use the problem of evil as a valid argument about God

 

More importantly... DIO VULT!

[Big Brother]

If I did it was not deliberate, but surely the problem of evil is something to consider, at least when discussing the notion of an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent Abrahamic god.

[Arthur James]

I don't respect this topic since the answer are both negative.

Edited July 27, 2015 by Arthur James

[Hysteria]

Religion is fking stupid

 

/endthread

[Wayne]

Wiki arguments involving religion is a internet highlight for me...

[Spite]

If I did it was not deliberate, but surely the problem of evil is something to consider, at least when discussing the notion of an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent Abrahamic god.

 

Not really, it's sophistry and the ancient greeks demolished the argument long before Jesus appeared on the scene. An omnipotent being and sentient life can co-exist, but only with the existence of evil. That's pretty much the end of the argument. By taking away our ability to choose evil, an omnipotent God would also cut away the part of us which makes us human, sentient, however you want to call it. Similarly if God appeared in the sky to poke his finger into every erupting volcano or put down ever disease, our world would be nothing more than a giant doll house full of toys, and we wouldn't be people we'd be possessions. If we were sentient that would be an even crueller fate.

 

Pointing at children dying of AIDS and saying "God must be evil" is just an appeal to emotion, argumentum ad passiones and is a logical fallacy.

[Lan]

Not really, it's sophistry and the ancient greeks demolished the argument long before Jesus appeared on the scene. An omnipotent being and sentient life can co-exist, but only with the existence of evil. That's pretty much the end of the argument. By taking away our ability to choose evil, an omnipotent God would also cut away the part of us which makes us human, sentient, however you want to call it. Similarly if God appeared in the sky to poke his finger into every erupting volcano or put down ever disease, our world would be nothing more than a giant doll house full of toys, and we wouldn't be people we'd be possessions. If we were sentient that would be an even crueller fate.

 

Pointing at children dying of AIDS and saying "God must be evil" is just an appeal to emotion, argumentum ad passiones and is a logical fallacy.

Terms like Evil and Good are irrelevant social constructs that do not exist outside your own mind. 

Assuming there is a God, assuming the Abrahamic God is real, then said God created both good and evil and being all knowing, had already made this distinction before there was anything to distinguish. 

So how is calling God evil or good, based on natural events, a logical fallacy? What if I call Satan evil because some Satanic cult in Italy murdered some kids? Would that be a logical fallacy?