Return to the OWF, fellow Orbisans

[katashimon13]

rawr

[Sval]

I'm all for making the forums the centre of Orbis again.

But if we're going to make it work people need to stop crapping on everything new.

If we want the depth back to this place, we need to stop filling every DoE with "Disband". We need to encourage every alliance to speak here, to share their culture, to add that colour and meaning that spurs discussion and debate. We need rivalries to be good-natured and entirely IC, instead of the OOC venom that almost always rears its head.

If we want the passion we need to stop stamping on one-another's enthusiasm.

It's a noble goal.
And I honestly don't think we're capable of it.

Edited January 30, 2022 by Sval
typo

[katashimon13]

2 hours ago, Sval said:

And I honestly don't think we're capable of it.

reband ;3

rawr

Edited January 30, 2022 by katashimon13
rawr

[Thalmor]

12 hours ago, Sval said:

And I honestly don't think we're capable of it.

Why do you think the community is not capable of it? 

[Bezzers]

On 1/29/2022 at 1:43 AM, Thalmor said:

I think 'Orbisans' is the Demonym for residents of Orbis. Those with more knowledge in etymology are free to correct me. I asked Alex and he said he had never thought about it, so he didn't have an answer for me. Rip.

In between making appeals and writing love letters, there has been a sudden return to high-level, passionate, long-form discourse on the forums. Perhaps my brain is fried from 5G cell towers, but I haven't really seen this kind of stuff since - and may Allah forgive me for uttering these words - New Pacific Order's Last Time.

In response to how destructive that war was, both in the rhetoric and its effects on the player base, the meta quickly did a one-eighty. We currently play a game where decision makers are constantly acting in good faith within a principled framework. Wars end without terms- sometimes suddenly. The community regulates itself to ensure no one or two spheres can overpower the others. Yes, there are exceptions to all these themes, but there's almost two years of data to look over and I believe that's been the trend. The current meta is a strong disgust response to what we had to deal with in that one war with those people.

Interestingly, alongside the meta's shift to being as non-toxic as possible, spirited debate has also disappeared. If you go to the wiki, and browse the forum threads linked in the various globals of 2016-2018, you will find plenty of discourse among the decision makers of the time. Some threads, if I remember correctly, would even reach 50 pages long (in a time where the active play base was less than half the size it is now, mind you). These threads would have plenty of walls of text, and tons of passion behind them. Unfortunately, these kinds of discussions don't happen anymore. It's probably the only change in the meta these past two years that I miss. Presently, it appears as if most wars and their motivations are cut and dry enough that there isn't much room for spirited discussion. If I had to guess, that's the price paid for everyone operating in the same frame of trying to act in good faith (I'm not sure if that should change though; it will inevitably happen as the years go on anyways so there's no need to hasten our collective return to hell).

I do miss the discussions of the past, though. I miss the intellectual melees that happened. I miss the passion. I welcome the changes that have occurred in the mindsets of people since NPOLT's ended, but to me, the lack of enthusiastic debate on the forums is missed. I think a lot of it has shifted to Discord, but a lot of that is hidden away in embassies, DMs, group chats, and in servers I am not a part of. There are times for talks to be hidden, but I think a lot of discourse can happen out in the open here on the forums, and it would be nice if that returned. 

I am not the only one who feels this way. I've seen plenty of people saying that they enjoy Horsecock's OP. Killzbob made a video recording of him reading that post, and it sits with 135 views; making it the 5th most viewed video on the Thalmor Radio archive- a channel with over 100 videos. In that thread, others jumped in and wrote long posts of their own. Reading these walles de textos are fun and the energy behind them is somewhat intoxicating. Now, in that thread, recent posts are encouraging people to return to the forums (comments made by Shiho and Adam are my inspiration for making this thread myself). I think that is something that should happen.

The forums have been a big part of the game. It is a place where communities make announcements, and others post their memes or valuable information (such as a tier or sphere analysis). While these things are all great, the complex political discussions that use to be commonplace are as every much a part of the game's experience and collective inheritance of the community as every meme or serious review of something that gets made. While the forums were probably used more in the early years because IRC is, like, from the 90's and Discord is much more convenient and fluid, I do think the community is missing out on entertaining and informative discussions by our political leaders in our alliances and spheres.

So, that is my request, fellow players of the game (especially those who are as decrypted and wrinkled as I am). Return to the forums. Return home. Discord has it uses, but during a time of war - or some other crisis - take it to the forums. Hash out those issues in the DoW or RoH. Someone screws you over? make a call out thread instead of yelling in the embassy. The community stands to benefit from seeing these things discussed more in the open when they happen. I enjoy seeing it, and I know others do too. It's a part of the game that I miss, and it's an old pastime that our newer companions can derive important information and fresh entertainment from.

TL:DR - Use the forums more because people are getting value (information and entertainment) out of the walls of text that come with passionate and energetic political discussion.

This was so powerful that it brought me out of retirement, so I can once again make pointless remarks that a minority find witty

[Sval]

2 hours ago, Thalmor said:

Why do you think the community is not capable of it? 

Generally, it's the toxicity that permeates this place.

Specifically, a few things we see happen time and again. Take newbie AA DoE threads, for example. How often they end in ridicule. How often over the years I've seen newer AAs post about what they feel are their significant goijngs-on, only to be shat on by parts of the wider community because "That's not the sort of stuff we post in Alliance Affairs".

Or the fact so few seem able to keep IC and OOC apart. How often the IC/OOC line of attack has been blurred or outright crossed.

Or the fact that HC's insightful thread had to be moderated for racism within only a handful of replies.

I really can't see things changing. I think people will keep behaving the same way they always have. Why wouldn't they? What reason do they have to change?

I'd like to see things improve, going forwards. I'd like to see more content and more positive engagement from all across Orbis. I'll certainly cross my fingers.
But I won't hold my breath.

[Jacob Knox]

17 hours ago, Sval said:

I'm all for making the forums the centre of Orbis again.

But if we're going to make it work people need to stop crapping on everything new.

If we want the depth back to this place, we need to stop filling every DoE with "Disband". We need to encourage every alliance to speak here, to share their culture, to add that colour and meaning that spurs discussion and debate. We need rivalries to be good-natured and entirely IC, instead of the OOC venom that almost always rears its head.

If we want the passion we need to stop stamping on one-another's enthusiasm.

It's a noble goal.
And I honestly don't think we're capable of it.

Well said, Sval, and I completely agree. It has always been disheartening, in my opinion, to see micros/nanos met with absolute toxicity when they dare post their DoE or new treaty. While I can see the point that if every micro/nano did this--especially for every random treaty they make--this subforum would be filled with DoEs of alliances that don't last past a month and pointless treaties, I still think that we need to be more encouraging of new players and support them in whatever endeavors they choose. I personally strive to provide constructive criticism any time I encounter such a case as I want to help all players grow. Perhaps that's because I ended up learning many things "the hard way" in this game and in this community, but still.

 

Perhaps, as a nice middle ground, we could convince the mods to create a subforum dedicated to micro affairs for those of us who care to hear them out. That way this one can be free of "clutter" for those who don't. (Though lord knows some would follow that thread JUST to bully them smh.)

[Adrienne]

18 hours ago, Sval said:

I'm all for making the forums the centre of Orbis again.

But if we're going to make it work people need to stop crapping on everything new.

If we want the depth back to this place, we need to stop filling every DoE with "Disband". We need to encourage every alliance to speak here, to share their culture, to add that colour and meaning that spurs discussion and debate. We need rivalries to be good-natured and entirely IC, instead of the OOC venom that almost always rears its head.

If we want the passion we need to stop stamping on one-another's enthusiasm.

It's a noble goal.
And I honestly don't think we're capable of it.

So what can we do to make it happen and make things better?

One thing I used to do before I got too busy and spent less time on the forums was try to act as a positive voice on those DoE threads or really any new player/alliance thread. I still have the new player intros as pings on my account here. Work to drown out the negativity by telling them to ignore the haters and congratulate them. I can devote more effort to that again where possible and ask TKR to help too when I see it happening. I know this is merely one example but the broader idea still applies.

When OOC/IC things cross a line, call it out, don't let it slide. Similarly, don't create witch hunts when you see things you don't agree with or think is wrong - talk to the person, it may well not be what you think, particularly if it seems out of character for that person generally. Going too far in either direction can be equally harmful. When things are becoming unnecessarily negative, try to be the person that is positive or at least kind. When it comes to things such as these, we should all be on the same side, regardless of alliance rivalries or sides in a war. It affects us all as this is all of our community. There are plenty of ways to express yourself and get your point across without being an !@#$.

This doesn't just apply to the forums either. This can - and should - apply to discord as well. Be decent people. Don't hate on others. Keep things IC and when you see things crossing a line, don't let IC politics get in the way of standing up for others and making this community a better place. It only takes a few active folks to make a difference.

[Etat]

7 hours ago, Sval said:

...I really can't see things changing. I think people will keep behaving the same way they always have. Why wouldn't they? What reason do they have to change?

I agree with your first post, and with parts of your second.  We live in a time where fairness in all things is seen as a right, and people are extraordinarily hypersensitive to any perceived slight, with the basis for these potential slights innumerable.  Consequently people will jump into any opportunity to rant and rave about a slur, whether it's aimed to them or not.  The subsequent degradation of threads is a disincentive to engage for the many, and an incentive to engage for the toxic few.

We only have to influence Orbis though, not the whole world.  Also, given that it is a relatively smaller number of players that actually post on the OWF, we only need their buy-in to alter the tone in a positive way.  Adrienne's ideas are a great start, and Alex might consider some structural changes to promote a healthy OWF such as posts that have been reported for moderation being visibly flagged with people encouraged to refrain from commenting on them until the issues are resolved.

[katashimon13]

18 hours ago, Sval said:

it's the paradorks that permeates this place.

fixed it for u xP

15 hours ago, Adrienne said:

One thing I used to do before I got too busy and spent less time on the forums was try to act as a positive voice

10 hours ago, Etat said:

We only have to influence Orbis though, not the whole world.

frankly... its easier irl than here... similar to what i said in the charity thread... using energy to do good here is just so inefficient (probably doesnt help that i joined this game jaded af from prior ones) but i appreciate yall trying

rawr

[Evlar Ball]

"Use the forums more because people are getting value (information and entertainment) out of the walls of text that come with passionate and energetic political discussion."

To have a passionate and energetic political discussion you need to hear each other out. A lot of recent threads have been ruined by idiots refusing to engage with the discussion points and harping on about reputation or just being toxic/rude

Edited January 31, 2022 by Evlar Ball

[Zed]

My guess is that the instant conversational access of Discord has really driven the active player base there. Discord has several advantages over IRC in a rapid online environment. It is much easier to monitor multiple servers and rooms, there are integrated voice options and emojis, and a whole host of other benefits. Most alliances worth any salt require the use of Discord for members (or an alternative, like TKR with Slack). The downside, seemingly, is that because the game “gets played on Discord” as much as it does in the actual site itself, people have more of an incentive to hash everything out there.

The news servers contribute to this as well. It strikes me as extremely curious that the PnW Discord is not the watercooler for most of the banter and posting among people from different alliances. Instead, on Discord, there are a host of other servers that fill this role. RON is probably the best known example, but radio show servers like Thalmoria and Morf Radio contribute as well. The socialization of people in game does not happen on the official sanctioned channels. Should it? The OWF really used to serve that town square role that is now not even on the PnW Sanctioned Discord so much as it is on a litany of other servers run by individuals. I am not arguing that this is good or bad, but it is not something that contributes to having public discussions on forums.

Over the holidays I was watching the original Home Alone with some younger (grade school aged) family members. One of them asked me what the strange black box was that the main character was using to watch the TV. It was a VCR. I had to explain to them what VHS was. They just had no idea. In fairness, except for hipsters with fixie bikes and overpriced lattes, most people today are not choosing a vinyl record player over a streaming platform - the same is true for VHS and streaming. I use this as an analogy here too. The people who remember forums and IRC are winding their careers down and leaving, and people who do not remember what this was like are coming. They will use the tools and technologies they are familiar with to drive discourse.

This is not some boomer yells at cloud judgement on the shift. It is just a part of what is happening with the cultures of this game. We do not have to trawl dozens of individual forums to do embassy politics, which is fine with me. I liked IRC, but I also like Discord and think that is has opened some new avenues for us too (and I use it in my professional life too, so take that Slack fans).

I will also admit that I personally am fairly elitist about new player micros and the like. I think this has been documented a lot here, and I probably am not changing my opinion that most micros without experienced players really should not do that, and instead join a more established alliance (and there are several acceptable choices) to learn the game for awhile before making their venture. But I also probably would not post in those threads now telling those people to give up the ghost, because I feel it is not worth it. I would rather save my more limited posting energy to other threads, where some actual half-decent politics are happening. I know that runs counter to some of the narrative here about embracing the new, but I suppose there are ways to pick and choose where one expends their efforts.

[Insert Name Here]

Horsecock's was bigger.

[Wendell]

Thank you wall of text. Very cool! 

[Prefonteen]

I have a radical idea to make things better!

Be interesting.

One of the things I harped on since the onset of the decline of forum posting, is the necessity for flavor. that is to say:

- Take on a persona and disconnect your OOC from that persona to some degree. This both helps solidify the IC-OOC divide (which is needed to reduce toxicity) and it allows for the creation of drama and narratives.
- Take (political) risks and have an actual agenda *at all times*. Having an agenda is not bad: Just be consistent and clear with it (unless you are roleplaying something that isn't, but that does mean you deal with more adversity in other forms. It can be fun, like a *game*.
- Don't all try to play the hurr durr honorable good guy. Be righteous. Be self serving. Be egotistic. Be bullheaded or any other controversial characteristic you can think of. *that* is how you create narratives.
- Your alliance culture is 90% chance cookie cutter. That makes you flavorless and boring. Go build an actual culture. Mold it. Alliance variety drives the game's flavor.
- Don't base everything you do on who you like OOC. I've been signed to every rival i've had at one point or another and most of my rivals have been allies eventually. Come to think of it, only UPN does not make that list. !@#$ you UPN.
- post actually interesting stuff. Hurr durring about needing more WoTs is a good start. I applaud you. Now go actually be interesting in game-related things.

[Mars]

8 hours ago, Prefonteen said:

Be interesting.

please...

Edited February 3, 2022 by Mars