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Do Not Fear Jaz

[MULTIPLE] GOONS On Vacation

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26 minutes ago, Cypher said:

When did Roq start to get a sense of humour?

It was part of the surrender terms.

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Guest Curufinwe
9 hours ago, Buorhann said:

There's quite a difference between an "alliance theme" and "members who follow Nazi dumb shit".

 

And uh, what was it, @Archibald?  Care to enlighten me on the history of Knights Templar and how they're Nazi's?

Okay, I'll bite.  Perhaps you're unaware, but Knights Templar imagery has actually been used by far right extremists in recent years, mostly due to the pro-Christian/anti-Islam connotations it possesses.  For example, Anders Breivik, the Norwegian right wing terrorist that killed 77 people (mostly teens) in 2011 claimed to be a 'Justiciar Knight Commander for Knights Templar Europe' in his 1500 page manifesto justifying his murders.  A few years later, Brenton Tarrant, the far right shooter that murdered 50 people in Christchurch, stated he was inspired by Breivik and, in his manifesto, claimed to have the 'blessing' of the 'reborn Knights Templar' for his actions, although it's debatable whether this group actually exists or is a white nationalist fantasy dreamed up by a mass murderer.  Other fairly recent examples include the English Defence League...

200px-EDL_LOG_Aug_2011.jpg

...an anti-immigrant/anti-Muslim group in the UK whose leadership had fascist ties.  Another Templar-themed far right group is the Knights Templar International...

Unnamed.png

...a group the seeks to halt Muslim immigration to Europe, has been banned from Facebook for hate speech and has (allegedly) supported Bulgarian militias targeting Muslim refugees and Serbian extremists in the Balkans.  They also participated in a 2018 conference in Tennessee attended by a number of far right groups and individuals, including David Duke (a prominent and unapologetic member of the KKK).

In keeping with the Charlottesville image I posted earlier, some of the far right demonstrators that attended the rally also used Templar imagery...

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTvDu1530iarAiMUrPPgi1

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTqyKNToirkIJDqA3r8LAY

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ6GW2-h1pyqYTLwlsEBGx

...which again underscores the link between the use of Templar imagery by far right (including neo-Nazi) groups in recent years.

So, to answer your original question, the historical Knights Templar are not Nazis (that comparison is meaningless by the way, since Nazi ideology was based on a doctrine of nationalism and racial purity that wouldn't gain popularity until the 19th century in Europe), but some contemporary hate groups have coopted Templar imagery, mostly because of the anti-Muslim/pro-Christian themes it represents (since a big theme of modern white nationalism is hostility to non white, non Christian immigration). 

Now, with all that said, not every Templar wannabe is necessarily a far right racist nutjob. These nerds...

Knights+Templar+and+Freemasonry.jpg

...are part of the Templar Masonic order and most likely just like playing dressup. Same deal with this guy...

julaug2018_a04_prologue.jpg

...who is affiliated with a Templar themed charitable organisation based in the US that doesn't have any white nationalist links I'm aware of. 

These guys, on the other hand, fall on the other end of the spectrum...

5020_8637.jpg...since their playing dress up has taken a markedly different form more in keeping with the far right's use of Templar symbolism.   

So yeah, not every Templar enthusiast is necessarily a far right nutjob, but a good number definitely are and there is a fair amount of crossover with contemporary far right extremism.   I have my own opinions on the matter (based on the type of people KT seems to attract as members), but other people are free to decide where PW Knights 'We have a permanent casus belli against Islamic-themed alliances' Templar fall on that particular spectrum.  Still, claiming that far right groups haven't been using Templar imagery in recent years is pretty out there, since there's a ton of evidence to the contrary that even a cursory Google search would turn up. 

But yeah, I'll just leave this here...

ZFsoKxm.gif

..and we can go back to talking about how problematic it is to be associated with AAs that prominently feature symbolism that is also used by far right groups.

 

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Fellas, fellas! Why nitpick over who's worse? Can't we just agree that all fascist alliances are less than desirable, and hope that they collectively come to a slow and painful end on Orbis? 

Edited by Of The Flies
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6 hours ago, Buorhann said:

Didn't you just sign a NAP with some?

Nope 

Edited by kosmokenny
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Man I hope these far right guys don't start using planes and crowns and stars on flags and symbols or shit you know how awkward it would be to wake up one day and BAM now you're a Nazi and you're the last person to know.

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42 minutes ago, Akuryo said:

Man I hope these far right guys don't start using planes and crowns and stars on flags and symbols or shit you know how awkward it would be to wake up one day and BAM now you're a Nazi and you're the last person to know.

Eh. I think this is kind of missing the point. Thalmor was going for a certain thing when he made the alliance and it was bound to attract people more radical than he may be. The post-Thalmor leaders like Keegoz who don't traditionally imbue their alliances with RL poliitcal views have had the challenge of balancing the fact that it will get them negative attention and alienating their memberbase by going too "PC". I don't know what their own personal views are ultimately, but the imagery curu cites is the most prominent with regards to the KT theme. By contrast there was a knights templar themed alliance in CN, and it never had these political associations because it was a much different political climate at the time it was made and it didn't try to attract people based on their RL political views.

To give some examples, there was a person with a British Union of Fascists flag with Tsumugi from K-On on it. There's also a hyperborea theme nation which comes with all the associated issues the alliance had since you know Hyperborea is supposed to be the mythical homeland of the Aryan race.  I was very disgruntled with the Hyperborea theme and BK's association with it for a long time. There's also that guy who did the lynching reference and his ruler name and nation name was specifically mocking of blacks/muslims to begin with. There's also Rhodesia forever nation as well and you know it means it's someone who sees white minority rule as ideal.

Edited by Roquentin
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Guest Curufinwe
1 hour ago, Akuryo said:

Man I hope these far right guys don't start using planes and crowns and stars on flags and symbols or shit you know how awkward it would be to wake up one day and BAM now you're a Nazi and you're the last person to know.

Yeah, the idea that it's not the symbol's fault that awful people decide to co-opt it is a fairly common response to this sort of thing, but it's kind of irrelevant at the end of the day.  For example, it's completely true to point out that the swastika was used in Hindu and Buddhist iconography for millennia before it was adopted by the Nazis, but if you go around with a swastika tattooed on your arm people aren't going to associate it (or you) with ancient Eurasian religions.  Same deal with the Odal rune, which dates back to 3rd century Germanic runic script but was used by SS units in the 1940s and white supremacist groups today as a substitute for the swastika, which is the primary association most people are going to have when they see it.  Due to its use by the KKK and other white supremacist groups, the confederate naval jack (what we think of as the 'confederate flag') is often associated with a particular kind of racism as well.  And, given its recent prominence among the anti Islamic extremists on the far right, Templar imagery arguably has similar baggage due to its popularity among people susceptible to white nationalist  propaganda.  So yeah, we can say that symbols are just symbols all we like but it's impossible to ignore the meaning attached to them in modern culture when we're discussing the people and groups who use them.

Edited by Curufinwe

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frick me running, I just liked two Curu posts and a Roq post. The transcendent power of a unified front.

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16 minutes ago, durmij said:

frick me running, I just liked two Curu posts and a Roq post. The transcendent power of a unified front.

the call is coming from INSIDE THE HOUSE

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Oof.  That's one hell of a post there, Curu.

Somehow you stretched out a blatantly 12th century theme into a 20th century hate party, then later go on to establish that it's not the symbol's fault that hate parties adopt them.

When in comparison, the Afrika Korp was...  uh...  literally a Nazi division force.

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it's not really a stretch. Thalmor and the other creators at the very least seemingly felt Western values were being undermined by Islamization in Europe. Then the sort of box was opened and all kinds of far right people went in just because that sweetener was there. Once you starting get the helicopter meme people( see Colonia Dignidad), then it's not a big leap to Hitler. You do know what the remove kebab meme is from right?

Afrika Korps on the other hand, I go in and first thing I see is:

X76to1Vx.JPG

It's totally possible they could all be closet case nazis and it's just hidden, but it's just seemed to be  a very misguided theme. The Migraine guy has pushed the limits though. Alex has been inconsistent in terms of what German themes are appropriate and not.

 

Edited by Roquentin

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1 hour ago, Roquentin said:

it's not really a stretch. Thalmor and the other creators at the very least seemingly felt Western values were being undermined by Islamization in Europe. Then the sort of box was opened and all kinds of far right people went in just because that sweetener was there. Once you starting get the helicopter meme people( see Colonia Dignidad), then it's not a big leap to Hitler. You do know what the remove kebab meme is from right?

Afrika Korps on the other hand, I go in and first thing I see is:

X76to1Vx.JPG

It's totally possible they could all be closet case nazis and it's just hidden, but it's just seemed to be  a very misguided theme. The Migraine guy has pushed the limits though. Alex has been inconsistent in terms of what German themes are appropriate and not.

 

The way I explained it to someone on my discord was like, AK is a bunch of dorks cosplaying nazis. Which is p reprehensible but... Not the absolute worst thing ever. KT on the other hand is like... oof.

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Guest Curufinwe
3 hours ago, Buorhann said:

Oof.  That's one hell of a post there, Curu.

Somehow you stretched out a blatantly 12th century theme into a 20th century hate party, then later go on to establish that it's not the symbol's fault that hate parties adopt them.

When in comparison, the Afrika Korp was...  uh...  literally a Nazi division force.

You asked to be educated on the link between Templar imagery and the contemporary far right (including Neo-Nazism); I'm not sure it's my fault that you failed to absorb the lesson. 

The point that I actually communicated is that a number of right wing extremist groups (not to mention mass murderers like Breivik and Tarrant) have adopted Templar imagery as a symbol of anti immigrant/anti Islamic sentiment, in a similar way that (despite unrelated origins) use of the swastika or the Odal rune are now symbolic of support for the genocidal racial policies of the Third Reich.  I also pointed out that it's irrelevant in this context that the Templars started out as a medieval military order or that the swastika began as a Eurasian religious symbol, since it's not really possible to ignore the connotations these symbols have gained in modern culture following their co-option by hate groups (so literally the opposite of what you appear to think I said).  Now, I did provide some counter examples of Templar themed organizations that aren't affiliated with white nationalism, but given that Templar imagery is being used by a number of far right groups, at least two right wing extremists that carried out mass murders and the white nationalist Charlotteville demonstrators, a reasonable person is going to raise an eyebrow at the use of Templar symbolism in general.  As I said, not every Templar wannabe is a far right nutjob but enough of them are that it definitely carries some cultural baggage. 

I'll also point out that the logical extension of the view that it's the origins of symbols that matter, rather than their usage in modern culture (which appears to be the basis of your defense of the Templars as a historical organization) is that, for example, use of the swastika is fine because it originated as a Eurasian religious symbol, its later co-option by the Nazis notwithstanding.  If that is your position, that's fine I guess, but if you ever find yourself explaining that to someone in person please take some video so we can see their facial expressions while you do so.  

So I'll just leave this here...

the-point-you-head-27319162.png

...and we'll return to the discussion of how the AA that draws symbolism from this...

 ?imw=1024&imh=760&ima=fit&impolicy=Lette

...and this...

6XMPcEl.jpg

...is so much more problematic than the AA that shares symbolism with this...

Anders_Behring_Breivik_mani.jpg

...and this...

Bethea-KKK.jpg

 

Edited by Curufinwe

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Guest PhantomThiefB
6 hours ago, Buorhann said:

Oof.  That's one hell of a post there, Curu.

Somehow you stretched out a blatantly 12th century theme into a 20th century hate party, then later go on to establish that it's not the symbol's fault that hate parties adopt them.

When in comparison, the Afrika Korp was...  uh...  literally a Nazi division force.

Okay, even assuming that what @Curufinwe posted wasn't true (it probably is true) that doesn't change the fact they named their alliance after an order that was responsible for the Crusades. That's mass murder too, with rape and pillaging to boot! All in the name of a phoney religion led by a Pope, Bishops and Priests that have consistently been caught molesting little boys even in the 20th century. Congratulations, you played yourself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades

I even left you links, since you clearly need them.

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@Curufinwe They also share imagery with this: https://www.google.com/search?q=afrika+korps&oq=afrika+ko&aqs=chrome.0.0j69i57j69i60l2j69i61.5078j0j7&client=ms-android-tmus-us-revc&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

Sorry but no matter how much your point benefits from it, an anime does not magically scrub away the dark marks of history. Especially when you consider Japan's continued love for Germany and the notable historical revisionist movement in Japan as well. The power of anime girl thighs simply isn't going to change what that name actually means, and is connected to, no matter where they claim the source is from.

Nice try at dodging that truth for your ally though.

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1 hour ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

Okay, even assuming that what @Curufinwe posted wasn't true (it probably is true) that doesn't change the fact they named their alliance after an order that was responsible for the Crusades. That's mass murder too, with rape and pillaging to boot! All in the name of a phoney religion led by a Pope, Bishops and Priests that have consistently been caught molesting little boys even in the 20th century. Congratulations, you played yourself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades

I even left you links, since you clearly need them.

image.png.799e313c2da1f2848c8cab60595e37ab.png

One can find negative connotations everywhere if one wants. Great White North. Sounds like a Nazi plan as well. 

 

And some here are right, Afrika Korps is of course a product of the Third Reich, and some of our artworks are based on it. In that context AK could be conflicting with the "No Nazi related" names rule. But the Afrika Korps wasn't a political SS Unit, but a branch of the Army. See Wikipedia

image.png.29df6e88e82ced28640e60b106ffb48a.png

That name isn't forbidden anywhere. We're not using a Swastika or any other forbidden symbol as well. Using here german laws, which are the hardest anti-nazi laws world wide. 

By the standard of treating the word "Afrika Korps" as a political name of the NSDAP, we can as well treat the word "Luftwaffe" the same. Both have their origin in the time between 1933 and 1945. Luftwaffe was re-used and is still the name of the current german air force. 

Let the tears in your eyes for a moment. Africa and Corps, those word combines can't be the reason some here are unable to sleep in peace right? If so, please DM me, and we can talk about it, even about a rename. We're very tolerant in that regard and will find a solution together.

 

I for one find the Mongol theme extremely offending. They offensively attacked the Knights Templar first, and no one complains about that, because... uh... 

Because it doesn't matter. As i wrote in the beginning. You can find everywhere offensive things if you want or if it's you hobby as Internet Warrior. 

image.thumb.png.76c8799ccb25f677474e49fcc8aa97ee.png

 

And the child slave thing that Migraine wrote... It was stupid bullshit, written by 1 member of an alliance. Even tho it serves to enhance the bad reputation of an already super evil organisation, i'd prefer to treat people as individuums, no generalizing everyone ;)

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6 hours ago, Curufinwe said:

draws symbolism from this...

image0.jpg
 

meet the afrika korps.

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1 minute ago, Odin said:

I for one find the Mongol theme extremely offending. They offensively attacked the Knights Templar first, and no one complains about that, because... uh... 

I say the same thing about BK and the Twin Towers and have the same impact you guys have had right now.

After all, Islamic imagery has been used by terrorists, no? Or are you saying that it’s not Islams fault that they were used by terrorists. In that case you can’t say the same about the templars. 

Or the CoS and offending my sense of not-idiocy.

Or the communist nations who, in their real life forms, slaughtered millions their own civilians.

 

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Guest PhantomThiefB

@Odin Fair point. Though for the record I only meant it as a Canadian thing. In hindsight I should have went with something else.

Edit As for your history lesson, I'm well aware of Rommel and the rather blurred lines behind him. I have no personal opinion concerning AK, and honestly could care less for the record. It has nothing to do with me personally. I just find it funny how people try to push the 1-way street. So I played along, wanted to find out what's so fun and exciting about it, y'know?

Edited by PhantomThiefB

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Guest Curufinwe
1 hour ago, Akuryo said:

@Curufinwe They also share imagery with this: https://www.google.com/search?q=afrika+korps&oq=afrika+ko&aqs=chrome.0.0j69i57j69i60l2j69i61.5078j0j7&client=ms-android-tmus-us-revc&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

Sorry but no matter how much your point benefits from it, an anime does not magically scrub away the dark marks of history. Especially when you consider Japan's continued love for Germany and the notable historical revisionist movement in Japan as well. The power of anime girl thighs simply isn't going to change what that name actually means, and is connected to, no matter where they claim the source is from.

Nice try at dodging that truth for your ally though.

Sure and if there are people showing up at far right rallies cosplaying as anime girls from that series, then you may have a point (if there are people doing that, please share images, since that would be amusing).  If you think there is a moral equivalency between someone murdering 77 people in Norway, or 50 in New Zealand, and openly stating that they are inspired by/affiliated with Templar ideals (which in this context represents anti immigrant/anti Islamic sentiment) and an anime about girls who drive German tanks then it says more about you than anything else.  I mean the whole Panzer girl thing isn't my cup of tea, but if you're going to be in a coalition for months (or sign an MDP for a year and a half) with people who use the same symbolism as hate groups, you have lost any moral leverage to complain about the WWII anime nerds.

1 hour ago, CandyShi said:

image0.jpg
 

meet the afrika korps.

A KT member posting a swastika? Weird.  I made a point of not using images with swastikas because I didn't think it was appropriate (even though there is a surprising amount of imagery that combines the Templar cross and swastikas among far right supporters), but you be you I guess.

1 hour ago, CandyShi said:

I say the same thing about BK and the Twin Towers and have the same impact you guys have had right now.

BK and the twin towers? You realize that we're based on an anime as well, right?  As far as I know, Code Geass was not responsible for 9/11.  

Edited by Curufinwe

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36 minutes ago, Curufinwe said:

A KT member posting a swastika? Weird.  I made a point of not using images with swastikas because I didn't think it was appropriate (even though there is a surprising amount of imagery that combines the Templar cross and swastikas among far right supporters), but you be you I gues

Read the text below it.

 

I think if you can post a Templar symbol despite saying its a symbol of white supremacy and then criticize when I post a swastika  (which is the Afrika Korps symbol) to show the Afrika Korps imagery that leads to white supremacy that says a lot about your actual view, no?

 

Edit:

And before you default to “hurr KT white supremacist”... I’m Asian. 

Edited by CandyShi

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47 minutes ago, Curufinwe said:

BK and the twin towers? You realize that we're based on an anime as well, right?  As far as I know, Code Geass was not responsible for 9/11.  

You realize we’re based on a 12th century military as well right? As far as I know, the Knights Templar was not responsible for racism in the modern era.

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Guest Curufinwe
1 hour ago, CandyShi said:

Read the text below it.

 

I think if you can post a Templar symbol despite saying its a symbol of white supremacy and then criticize when I post a swastika (which is the Afrika Korps symbol) that says a lot about your actual view, no?

Actually if you check in-game, you'd see that this...

220?cb=20190327212735

...is the flag of the Afrika Korps we're discussing.   I haven't watched it but, flipping through relevant images, the source anime doesn't appear to prominently feature swastikas either.  Maybe try to avoid them if you're trying to dispute the problematic baggage of the whole Templar theme that have been raised.

1 hour ago, CandyShi said:

You realize we’re based on a 12th century military as well right? As far as I know, the Knights Templar was not responsible for racism in the modern era.

That point was already addressed; read the earlier posts about the use of Templar imagery in modern far right groups and how the meaning of symbols can change over time if you missed that earlier.

1 hour ago, CandyShi said:

Edit:

And before you default to “hurr KT white supremacist”... I’m Asian. 

I'm starting to suspect that you're not actually reading previous posts but, as was pointed out, the popularity of Templar imagery among far right groups is due to its anti Islamic/pro Christian connotations, which is certainly popular among people who also fall into the traditional category of 'white supremacists (like the Christchurch shooter, for example) but isn't confined exclusively to any particular ethnic group. So yeah, your ethnicity isn't really relevant to the conversation.

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11 minutes ago, Curufinwe said:

is the flag of the Afrika Korps we're discussing.   I

I think removing the swatstika below the palm tree doesn’t change the fact that it’s the source material. 
 

15 minutes ago, Curufinwe said:

That point was already addressed; read the earlier posts about the use of Templar imagery in modern far right groups and how the meaning of symbols can change over time if you missed that earlier.

And I think you missed the point where we specifically point to the more commonly known 12th century military order.

 

the fact is that if you google Afrika Korps you get a swatsika, but if you google Knights Templar you get a wikipedia page on the 12 century denotation

 

18 minutes ago, Curufinwe said:

 

I'm starting to suspect that you're not actually reading previous posts but, as was pointed out, the popularity of Templar imagery among far right groups is due to its anti Islamic/pro Christian connotations, which is certainly popular among people who also fall into the traditional category of 'white supremacists (like the Christchurch shooter, for example) but isn't confined exclusively to any particular ethnic group. So yeah, your ethnicity isn't really relevant to the conversation.

I’m starting to suspect that you’re not actually reading previous posts but, as was pointed out, the popularity of Islamic imagery among far (?) groups is due to its anti Christian/pro Islamic connotations, which is certainly popular among people who also fall into the traditional category of ‘terrorists’ (Like Al Queda for example) but isn’t confined to a specific ethnic group.


Is my religious viewpoint (or lack thereof) relevant then? I’m an atheist and I don’t see any problems either, I’ve associated the Templar theme with bravery, courage, and the determination to fail 9 times and try again. 

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