Dubayoo Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 (edited) (I don't know if this belongs here or in National Affairs, so if it needs to be moved, feel free to move it.) The number one problem that this gameworld has is how slow it can be. It takes a ton of time to accumulate resources, and you just end up with people saving up to sit around on stockpiles. It further discourages activity from people getting bored. They leave the game, and don't look back... which makes the game more inactive and creates a vicious cycle. One of the things you can do to reinvigorate activity, though, is recycle inactive players' resources. That way, future new players can make more things happen. On the other hand, if you're temporarily inactive, you just go into vacation mode... ...which of course, Lordaeron doesn't permit, so what happens? Its players go inactive and become vulnerable. The problem here is people can't tell in advance which players are really inactive versus those that have serious real life priorities... ...so what happens? Players with serious real life priorities get targeted. They shouldn't get targeted, but they can't clarify their position, so they do. On top of that, you have other players who even if they are active, don't log in enough to regularly play the game. Frankly, these people shouldn't be in the game to begin with. They can't coordinate efficiently, so they're asking to get destroyed over the long run. Any short-run build up will ultimately be in vain since they don't have a chance... ...but of course, Lordaeron recruits these players into its ranks. Of course, these players get attacked as well, but if you'd like to offer them a peace treaty, they take forever to accept. It makes you look like a warmonger despite how you're not. The result is you need to protect these two groups which makes thing clumsy, awkward, and frustrating. Still, the right way to protect them is simple: use your words. Tell whoever's attacking what the problem is. If they stop, you don't do anything. If they keep going, you act. The problem with Lordaeron is it doesn't know how to use words. Its members counterattack without warning even after another member warns and the attacker stops, even after the attacker saves MAPs instead of attacking as much as one could... ...but it gets worse than this. When you counterattack, you shove to a point. You order members at the level of the attacker to counterattack. They engage, show their solidarity, and it convinces the attacker to back down. In fact, I've encountered this a few times, and I've backed down because of it. Just because I play a pirate doesn't mean I expect special treatment. I understand the risk of being countered. Imperial British Commonwealth and Global Communist Bloc are two alliances that did this correctly. What you DON'T do is downdeclare en masse with players barely in nation score to fill the attacker's defensive slots and obliterate the attacker. Why? 1) It makes it so you're the only one who takes damages. The attacker isn't going to find another target somewhere else. That puts your group behind the pack. This is a mass-multiplayer game, not a 1v1. 2) It's flat out cowardly in suggesting your upper-tier members don't fight enemies at their own level since they fight weaker enemies to feel good about themselves. 3) It removes combat experience from lower-tier members in your own alliance that they could grow with, and suggests your own alliance doesn't care to cultivate combat experience. 4) It creates animosity. If you shove to make a point, it suggests you understand restraint. That means the attacker has no motive to remember you. If you obliterate, you leave a lasting impact which means sometime into the distant future, the attacker will have it in for you. On top of that, it encourages the attacker to find out who your enemies are, and become a Machiavellian where the enemies of your enemies are the attacker's friends. You turn a temporary neutral attacker into a permanent hostile enemy. Remember, counters should be done in proportion. You don't want the attacker to prioritize you versus the rest of the world. If the attacker does, it puts you behind the rest of the world. The exception here is if the attacker comes back for another round AFTER countering in proportion. Then, you want to leave a lasting impression because obviously, the attacker didn't learn from experience the first time. If no first experience happened though, then you're jumping to conclusions. Of course, Lordaeron doesn't get any of this. Instead, it just gets triggerhappy. The idea of engaging the right way with the right players doesn't exist in its mind. It also treats you like you're the only other side in the world instead of realizing there's more to it. On top of this, its triggerhappiness happens without orders which suggests a lack of organized leadership. Lastly, if you make mistakes here, you own up to them. That means you pay damages. Again, Global Communist Bloc was a good example of an alliance that understood this. It realized it failed to talk before acting to counter an attack, so it knew damages were in order. If you don't own up to them, then expect to be denounced... ...don't BEIGE the attacker. That just makes things go from bad to worse. Again, you're delaying the time that the attacker can go to find another target which keeps you behind the pack. It also reinforces animosity. We need to understand that PnW is a mass multiplayer strategic competition. This isn't a simulation of real life with justice and morals. This isn't a 1v1 situation where you want to prevent a solitary opponent from engaging you in the future. This is a game that works like a race. If you block a specific racer, you're losing to all the others. Going all out to prevent one racer from getting ahead is a strategy of losers. On top of that, it discourages people from strategizing with you in the future which makes you even more of a loser. Edited May 29, 2017 by Argotitan 3 Quote My Avie: https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/senna/ Shortened versions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9qZu7h5ys0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvVqSpS65VE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micchan Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 This is a very long post 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Revan Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 Lord-A-Aron sucks and will continue to lose. My seven words accomplished the same goal as your essay. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catho Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 (edited) I agree with you Agrotitan Edited May 29, 2017 by Catho 1 Quote Anger me and my island will go boom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Thalmor Posted May 29, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted May 29, 2017 ~asshurt~ It doesn't take a whole college thesis to whine over getting countered because you attacked the wrong alliance: The Lordaeron counters were effective and now you have no air. Those 5 Lordaeron guys you're fighting will be able to easily overpower you and you're about to take a lot of damage; you know this, so you come to the forums to whine and !@#$ and write a 4,000-word, rambling, incoherent OP instead of just acting like a normal person and owning up to - and learning from - your mistake. I agree with you Agrotitan Lord-A-Aron sucks and will continue to lose. My seven words accomplished the same goal as your essay. I understand Lordaeron's meme status, but come on guys- this isn't even low-hanging fruit. There's no merit here and the criticism of Lordaeron in the OP is completely invalid. 16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catho Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 (edited) While I agree with Thalmor I think OP made some good points Edited May 29, 2017 by Catho Quote Anger me and my island will go boom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 (edited) Both of those guys live in Brazil and are going through some things...not going to let you raid our guys man. EDIT: Very long message to complain about a counter. Edited May 29, 2017 by Kastor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Britishdude Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 Lol sucks to suck. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilgore Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 (edited) Edited May 29, 2017 by Kilgore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubayoo Posted May 29, 2017 Author Share Posted May 29, 2017 Lol sucks to suck. Hence why you had to downdeclare on someone younger than you, with less cities than you, and less infrastructure per city 3 times to feel good about yourself. Maybe this is why you lost the war. You don't know how to organize against others in a fair fight or how to use diplomacy correctly. Quote My Avie: https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/senna/ Shortened versions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9qZu7h5ys0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvVqSpS65VE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 Hence why you had to downdeclare on someone younger than you, with less cities than you, and less infrastructure per city 3 times to feel good about yourself. Maybe this is why you lost the war. You don't know how to organize against others in a fair fight or how to use diplomacy correctly. You have no idea what you're talking about. You're not going to raid our members and get away with it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubayoo Posted May 29, 2017 Author Share Posted May 29, 2017 *Has tunnelvision and ignores the big picture* Mate, seeing what you want to see doesn't make you a visionary. It just makes you deluded. Quote My Avie: https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/senna/ Shortened versions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9qZu7h5ys0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvVqSpS65VE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Woot Posted May 29, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted May 29, 2017 You wrote a whole post about how aggressively Lordaeron counters pirates and you think that reflects badly on them? 16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Britishdude Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 Hence why you had to downdeclare on someone younger than you, with less cities than you, and less infrastructure per city 3 times to feel good about yourself. Maybe this is why you lost the war. You don't know how to organize against others in a fair fight or how to use diplomacy correctly. Listen bud, your nation is only a month old, and I understand that some lessons have to be learned the hard way. If you raid an alliance, they are under no obligation to warn you of impending counters. A declaration of war on anyone in Lordaeron is a declaration of war on all of Lordaeron. So after you get rolled, brush yourself off and raid to your heart's content, but recognize the inherent risk in what you're doing. You won't get any sympathy from anyone except for Kastor haters and noobs. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubayoo Posted May 29, 2017 Author Share Posted May 29, 2017 You have no idea what you're talking about. You're not going to raid our members and get away with it. You wrote a whole post about how aggressively Lordaeron counters pirates and you think that reflects badly on them? Listen bud, your nation is only a month old, and I understand that some lessons have to be learned the hard way. If you raid an alliance, they are under no obligation to warn you of impending counters. A declaration of war on anyone in Lordaeron is a declaration of war on all of Lordaeron. So after you get rolled, brush yourself off and raid to your heart's content, but recognize the inherent risk in what you're doing. You won't get any sympathy from anyone except for Kastor haters and noobs. Really not sure you guys read what I wrote, but keep trying to deflect attention from being irrational. That's what losing alliances do. Quote My Avie: https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/senna/ Shortened versions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9qZu7h5ys0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvVqSpS65VE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thalmor Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 Really not sure you guys read what I wrote, but keep trying to deflect attention from being irrational. That's what losing alliances do. If they're so wrong, then it should be easy for you to refute them (including me). Come on now, oh wise one of 32 days of existence! Enlighten us! Show us veterans of the community - such as myself, Kastor, and Woot - the errors of our ways! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubayoo Posted May 29, 2017 Author Share Posted May 29, 2017 If they're so wrong, then it should be easy... ...so what? Whether something's easy or hard has nothing to do with whether something's right or wrong. Quote My Avie: https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/senna/ Shortened versions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9qZu7h5ys0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvVqSpS65VE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thalmor Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 ...so what? Whether something's easy or hard has nothing to do with whether something's right or wrong. Alright, you're just a troll. 6/10 performance. Would've been better if you just made up shit to reinforce your points and forcing people to respond. Better luck next time. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Britishdude Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 I was going to refute you point by point, but then I thought I could watch Netflix instead. Have fun getting rolled, buddy. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bethon Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 Really not sure you guys read what I wrote, but keep trying to deflect attention from being irrational. That's what losing alliances do. I don't believe that attacking a pirate with a more than decent army is irrational when the conflict was clearly started by you. Peace was offered but you fought for your own greed, but got countered hard and can't accept the fact that it was fair play. You could think for yourself, you are a young nation but your army is plenty enough to defend and obviously not enough for you to bully alliances. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubayoo Posted May 29, 2017 Author Share Posted May 29, 2017 Would've been better if you just made up shit... Way to project for how I just called you out for not making sense. Quote My Avie: https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/senna/ Shortened versions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9qZu7h5ys0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvVqSpS65VE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubayoo Posted May 29, 2017 Author Share Posted May 29, 2017 (I'd edit, but the forum formatting here doesn't like your quoting system in edits.) I don't believe that attacking a pirate with a more than decent army is irrational when the conflict was clearly started by you. Peace was offered but you fought for your own greed, but got countered hard and can't accept the fact that it was fair play. You could think for yourself, you are a young nation but your army is plenty enough to defend and obviously not enough for you to bully alliances. In a game like this, there is no such thing as decency. If you think there is, that explains why you're in a losing alliance. Diplomatic protocol is done for rationality so you don't overcommit. Your alliance has overcommitted by a ton to take me out. Other alliances will laugh at you behind your back, and as long as you focus on me, you will continue to be laughed at. Quote My Avie: https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/senna/ Shortened versions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9qZu7h5ys0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvVqSpS65VE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Shiho Nishizumi Posted May 29, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted May 29, 2017 (edited) The number one problem that this gameworld has is how slow it can be. It takes a ton of time to accumulate resources, and you just end up with people saving up to sit around on stockpiles. It further discourages activity from people getting bored. They leave the game, and don't look back... which makes the game more inactive and creates a vicious cycle. One of the things you can do to reinvigorate activity, though, is recycle inactive players' resources. That way, future new players can make more things happen. On the other hand, if you're temporarily inactive, you just go into vacation mode... ...which of course, Lordaeron doesn't permit, so what happens? Its players go inactive and become vulnerable. Yes, getting somewhere takes time and effort. That's natural in games. I fail to see why should inactive player's resouces be recycled. How would they be? What would the parameter be? Given to the poorest/smallest nations? If that was the case, it'd be an easily exploitable mechanic as people would have 0 infra 1 city nations hoarding those resources for themselves or for their AA. Plus, how do you know that Lord allows or forbids VM'ing? The problem here is people can't tell in advance which players are really inactive versus those that have serious real life priorities... ...so what happens? Players with serious real life priorities get targeted. They shouldn't get targeted, but they can't clarify their position, so they do. VM is there if you got stuff to deal with and you don't quite want to quit, but you don't want to do anything with the game in a bit. On top of that, you have other players who even if they are active, don't log in enough to regularly play the game. Frankly, these people shouldn't be in the game to begin with. They can't coordinate efficiently, so they're asking to get destroyed over the long run. Any short-run build up will ultimately be in vain since they don't have a chance... ...but of course, Lordaeron recruits these players into its ranks. Or maybe they go inactive after getting into Lord? People losing interest in the game can happen regardless of where they are. It's a matter of how each AA wants to handle their members, if they do. Of course, these players get attacked as well, but if you'd like to offer them a peace treaty, they take forever to accept. It makes you look like a warmonger despite how you're not. The result is you need to protect these two groups which makes thing clumsy, awkward, and frustrating. Still, the right way to protect them is simple: use your words. Tell whoever's attacking what the problem is. If they stop, you don't do anything. If they keep going, you act. It's up to each AA's leadership to handle raiders diplomatically or not. You are in a raider alliance, so you expecting to be asked to stop is wishful thinking at best, and delusional at worst. You should expect to be met with a sword when raiding other Alliances. The problem with Lordaeron is it doesn't know how to use words. Its members counterattack without warning even after another member warns and the attacker stops, even after the attacker saves MAPs instead of attacking as much as one could... ...but it gets worse than this. Is this going by your personal experience or you're just making this up? When you counterattack, you shove to a point. You order members at the level of the attacker to counterattack. They engage, show their solidarity, and it convinces the attacker to back down. In fact, I've encountered this a few times, and I've backed down because of it. Just because I play a pirate doesn't mean I expect special treatment. I understand the risk of being countered. Imperial British Commonwealth and Global Communist Bloc are two alliances that did this correctly. It's up to each alliance how they handle raiders. So long the method is effective at driving them away, how apparently harsh it is doesn't matter. What you DON'T do is downdeclare en masse with players barely in nation score to fill the attacker's defensive slots and obliterate the attacker. Why? 1) It makes it so you're the only one who takes damages. The attacker isn't going to find another target somewhere else. That puts your group behind the pack. This is a mass-multiplayer game, not a 1v1. 2) It's flat out cowardly in suggesting your upper-tier members don't fight enemies at their own level since they fight weaker enemies to feel good about themselves. 3) It removes combat experience from lower-tier members in your own alliance that they could grow with, and suggests your own alliance doesn't care to cultivate combat experience. 4) It creates animosity. If you shove to make a point, it suggests you understand restraint. That means the attacker has no motive to remember you. If you obliterate, you leave a lasting impact which means sometime into the distant future, the attacker will have it in for you. On top of that, it encourages the attacker to find out who your enemies are, and become a Machiavellian where the enemies of your enemies are the attacker's friends. You turn a temporary neutral attacker into a permanent hostile enemy. Refer to the post above. Plus: 1) Maximizing the damage the enemy receives and minimizing your own is a very basic of warfare. I don't really understand why you're complaining about getting slotfilled. 2) No, it's not cowardly. And even if it was, you complaining that it is is an exercise of hypocrisy. Raiding is about maximizing profit at the least possible risk. This means hitting nations that hold bank and that are unlikely to react, and if they can react, be unable to topple you. Wouldn't that be cowardly since you're hitting people that can't/won't defend themselves? 3) This is about the only somewhat reasonable point you made. However, in a context of an alliance that left an Orbis-wide war not too long ago, experience isn't something that their low tier lacks at the moment. 4) I frankly doubt that they care about a random raider hating them. As long as such raider doesn't hit again they couldn't care less. And if said raider does hit again he'll get shat on like the first time around. It's a non issue for Lord. Remember, counters should be done in proportion. You don't want the attacker to prioritize you versus the rest of the world. If the attacker does, it puts you behind the rest of the world. No. If you're going through the lengths of countering him, might as well !@#$ him up throughoutly. Of course, Lordaeron doesn't get any of this. Instead, it just gets triggerhappy. The idea of engaging the right way with the right players doesn't exist in its mind. It also treats you like you're the only other side in the world instead of realizing there's more to it. On top of this, its triggerhappiness happens without orders which suggests a lack of organized leadership. Go back to the whole 'How AA's handle the raiders threat' part. Plus, no. This isn't Age of Empires. This isn't Company of Heroes. Leadership doesn't have total control of their members. So, a member/couple of going gung-ho doesn't necessarily mean that the leadership is disorganized. Members countering raiders is not something that any alliance would put behind a seal of approval. Lastly, if you make mistakes here, you own up to them. That means you pay damages. Again, Global Communist Bloc was a good example of an alliance that understood this. It realized it failed to talk before acting to counter an attack, so it knew damages were in order. If you don't own up to them, then expect to be denounced... ...don't BEIGE the attacker. That just makes things go from bad to worse. Again, you're delaying the time that the attacker can go to find another target which keeps you behind the pack. It also reinforces animosity. Wait. You're expecting to be compensated for 'excessive damage'? After attacking *them* for easy profit? And you expect your denounce to be worth anything? I'd suggest you to drop your Rum. And no, beige isn't a magical mirror that can't be removed earlier. You can, quite literally, click on a nation and declare war. It will simply kick you out from beige automatically. As for the animosity thing, it was already cleared. We need to understand that PnW is a mass multiplayer strategic competition. This isn't a simulation of real life with justice and morals. This isn't a 1v1 situation where you want to prevent a solitary opponent from engaging you in the future. This is a game that works like a race. If you block a specific racer, you're losing to all the others. Going all out to prevent one racer from getting ahead is a strategy of losers. On top of that, it discourages people from strategizing with you in the future which makes you even more of a loser. I don't know, all I see is a guy that got butthurt because he attacked *two* members from one alliance and expected to go scot-free (something he didn't get). And when things didn't go his way, he made a petty thesis on why an alliance that countered him sucks. Edited May 29, 2017 by Shiho Nishizumi 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Lordship Posted May 29, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted May 29, 2017 Lordaeron is a sovereign alliance that reserves the right to defend its members, any alliance worth their salt would have done the same. 7 Quote Life before Death. Strength before Weakness. Journey before Destination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dio Brando Posted May 29, 2017 Share Posted May 29, 2017 This entire post comes off as you being a crybaby, Dub, and extends towards making your alliance seem like crybabies - the latter of which I know to be untrue. Arrgh! are no crybabies. At the end, you're simply taking the moral high-ground, and talking about how it was cowardly for Lordaeron to do what they did. I shit on Kas as much as the next Orbisian, but this makes little to no sense. You, as a raider, a pirate at that, should know that if you raid someone in a competent alliance it's pretty much a KOS warrant. Lordaeron countered, they countered hard, and countered fast. Kudos to them for making you this butthurt, that you need to come on the OWF to complain about countering. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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