Future for Alpha

[Roy Mustang]

That's far from sufficient. He has demonstrated he has zero remorse on our end. Considering the severity of his actions, I'm surprised he was not given the  boot. Had a moderator seen his post I'm sure he would have been more disciplined for the one action than anything tS gov has done.

 

As for the trying to spin peace that Steve would not listen; He did, he offered Alpha's terms. tS refused to sign any NAPs. That's why the peace talks failed. They did not fail because he expected to discuss peace with someone from the tri when 2 of the 3 were present as opposed to someone who was not part of the tri.

 

tS refused a term, the peace was rejected.

 

 

 

Unfortunately for you, you don't get to determine our disciplinary methods. While I would be happy to discuss mutually agreeable disciplinary methods regarding this incident, that would require that Alpha actually reach out to me. In fact, I have not been approached by yourself or Steve since Steve confronted me about the leaked logs (the peace talks aside). The way I found out about the irc video was the following day, because you had queried Katie about it (who then spoke with me about it when I next logged on). While Katie is a lovely person, she is emphatically not tS government. Neither Partisan nor I have any record or recollection of either of you contacting us about that incident (either incident, actually), and Jessica Rabbit rarely uses IRC, so you'll forgive me for taking the liberty of assuming you didn't reach out to her. So with that being said, none of our executive team was contacted (and as Steve has made abundantly clear to us, those are the people he cares about). 

 

James you did, however, reach out to Valakias, the FA 2nd in command (currently acting FA head). As he's shown above, he promptly apologized in that very query. Sure it's not an elaborate song and dance of an apology, but the idea that we didn't apologize is pretty patently false. And we have disciplined the member in a manner we found appropriate. Given your immediate dropping of the issue, one could be forgiven for operating under the impression you had no further requests. If that is not the case, my query is open to either you or Steve. In the absence of such a query, I am otherwise standing by our internal processes.

 

 

Your own members brought it to your attention actually. Why would we come to you if your own members brought it to your attention and were upset about it? Do you hold our opinion in higher esteem than your own community?

 

Our members are privy to internal discipline processes, you are not. Any other questions? 

Edited May 8, 2016 by Roy Mustang

[Sisyphus]

Your own members brought it to your attention actually. Why would we come to you if your own members brought it to your attention and were upset about it? Do you hold our opinion in higher esteem than your own community?

!@#$ us for keeping our house clean and reporting such infractions to our leadership before you can even do it, right?

 

And how dare our leadership deal with it so swiftly that you missed the public apology from a month ago.

 

We're such terrible people.

 

But when we go directly to your leader about equally serious, if not greater, grievances most of your membership actively condone the act and your leader does nothing.

 

Makes one really wonder why we don't trust you enough to sign a NAP, right?

[Greatnate]

That's far from sufficient. He has demonstrated he has zero remorse on our end. Considering the severity of his actions, I'm surprised he was not given the  boot. Had a moderator seen his post I'm sure he would have been more disciplined for the one action than anything tS gov has done.

 

To be fair, I'm pretty sure a moderator would just have deleted the post and issued a warn. It takes a lot of warning points to even earn a temporary ban.

[Prefonteen]

Your own members brought it to your attention actually. Why would we come to you if your own members brought it to your attention and were upset about it? Do you hold our opinion in higher esteem than your own community?

 

We are not discussing what our members did or did not bring to our attention at the moment. Our members are content with the sanctions to the offender. That's entirely irrelevant to our conversation with Alpha. My comment was in reference to Steve's bold claim that you brought it to our government, that we tried to 'defend it', and that we refused to do anything about it. That's factually incorrect and again borders slander.

 

You brought it to Valakia, my second in command at the time. He immediately agreed it was out of line and apologized.

 

By your own logic during negotiations, Valakia supposedly does not represent t$ at the moment, even though an announcement has been made to empower him to make executive FA decisions in my stead for a set period of time. So again: Why did you not bring it to a government official who you believe to represent t$ officially (The Board of Directors)? 

 

And please provide the logs where our government supposedly defends the member in question.

[Buorhann]

To be fair, I'm pretty sure a moderator would just have deleted the post and issued a warn. It takes a lot of warning points to even earn a temporary ban.

 

LOL, the same moderators who gave me a point for a post that "should've just been moved" ?

[Ezg]

Roy took care of the incident and apologized in public as soon as it happened, and has just apologized again in public.

 

>not sufficient

 

Steve refuses to apologize for his alliance's less tolerable conduct (also a term of peace) and mocks an official representative of the Syndicate.

 

>no problem

 

But the peace talks break down because The Syndicate refuses to sign a restrictive, six month long NAP with an alliance that has actively plotted against us, at the end of a war we've clearly won and clearly want to end and be behind us.

 

Do you try to compile meaningful statements or is this vomitous rhetoric involuntary?

The two situations are completely different. It is undeniable that a ts member post disturbing videos. Ts has not shown evidence that Steve changed pictures, you guys just assume he is guilty. Steve even said he will not lie in a surrender or something like that. That implies he does not believe he is responsible.

 

As for peace talks breaking down, that happens. Alpha gave you terms and you rejected them for legitimate reasons. However on the first couple of pages in this thread ts members implied peace talks ended due to Steve being evil, idiotic, or whatnot. That is not true.

[Beowulf the Second]

I have no problem condemning that video, and I'm sorry that was ever posted in your IRC channel. Multiple gov members have demonstrated the same on this forum right in front of you, and the gov member you reached out to, Valakia immediately apologized.

 

Why can't you make the same admissions with your member? And if you want to see 'the boot' for our guy (whatever that means, clarify pls), the same should happen to the Alpha member.

 

 

 

@Ezg, you missed the point entirely earlier. Actually, multiple points, the first being that you thought that NAP = vitriol. No, what I meant was that maybe your leader shouldn't be a prissy d*ck in negotiations if he wants peace. He can say whatever he likes, but the clearest sign of not wanting to actually negotiate peace terms is to leave the IRC channel mid-negotiations. And so I agree with you @James II, NAP's can indeed be conditional (although tbh for me personally those would be some large conditions), so tell your alliance leader to effing talk instead of leaving.

[James II]

I have no problem condemning that video, and I'm sorry that was ever posted in your IRC channel. Multiple gov members have demonstrated the same on this forum right in front of you, and the gov member you reached out to, Valakia immediately apologized.

 

Why can't you make the same admissions with your member? And if you want to see 'the boot' for our guy (whatever that means, clarify pls), the same should happen to the Alpha member.

 

 

 

@Ezg, you missed the point entirely earlier. Actually, multiple points, the first being that you thought that NAP = vitriol. No, what I meant was that maybe your leader shouldn't be a prissy d*ck in negotiations if he wants peace. He can say whatever he likes, but the clearest sign of not wanting to actually negotiate peace terms is to leave the IRC channel mid-negotiations. And so I agree with you @James II, NAP's can indeed be conditional (although tbh for me personally those would be some large conditions), so tell your alliance leader to effing talk instead of leaving.

The difference being tS assumes Steve is guilty without any proof. I don't know who hosted the image, we thought it funny and posted the "shit posting guide." Circumstantial.

 

LordofDeath posted a rape video in our channel, that is undeniable

LordofDeath said he was going to skull F*** Steve that is undeniable

 

tS members came to us apologizing and said they would let tri know right away. To our surprise, he simply got a "warn" from tS gov. 

 

The circumstances are far from similar. One is a repeat offender, the other is simply assumed to be an offender.

[Prefontaine]

You didn't require a NAP with TEst, by the by.

[Sisyphus]

The two situations are completely different. It is undeniable that a ts member post disturbing videos. Ts has not shown evidence that Steve changed pictures, you guys just assume he is guilty.

https://politicsandwar.com/forums/index.php?/topic/12364-hello-alpha/?p=237630

 

That presents a pretty strong case. For my part I can testify that when I posted "Wat" at the top of that page it was because after HopeSolo accused Eumir of posting rape jokes I went back and checked Eumir's post, which was unedited at the time, and it only contained Steve's flowchart for t$ shitposting.

 

I returned later to find Eumir was forced to edit his post (due to the content present in Woot's explanation) and when I checked the propaganda thread the shitposting guide was absolutely nowhere to be found, meaning Steve must have gone back and edited his post.

 

If the image url was sourced to Steve, and he went back and edited his post (he's the only one with the power to do this) then he is either the culprit or working in tandem with the culprit. I'd say an apology is warranted from him based on that, if nothing else, but also considering the fact that he is the Alliance leader it not only augments the gravity of the situation but would give us reason to expect an apology from him regardless of his involvement (as he expected a direct apology from Syndicate leadership, or is fair not fair?).

 

Steve even said he will not lie in a surrender or something like that. That implies he does not believe he is responsible.

Steve talks a lot about honesty and does very little to be honest. Edited May 8, 2016 by Wilhelm the Demented

[Avruch]

Alpha can't admit its own mistakes; this isn't new information. Even its members would rather lie and obfuscate than simply admit to an error and move on. They don't want peace, so they won't get it. 

[Beowulf the Second]

The two situations are completely different. It is undeniable that a ts member post disturbing videos. Ts has not shown evidence that Steve changed pictures, you guys just assume he is guilty. Steve even said he will not lie in a surrender or something like that. That implies he does not believe he is responsible.

 

As for peace talks breaking down, that happens. Alpha gave you terms and you rejected them for legitimate reasons. However on the first couple of pages in this thread ts members implied peace talks ended due to Steve being evil, idiotic, or whatnot. That is not true.

 

Whoever hosted the image had the ability to change the image, right? And that was Steve's image, which Eumir was linking to humorously until it got switched out. I don't know if he is pinning this on some other Alpha member, but I don't think you're unintelligent enough to suggest that someone entirely outside the war did it.

 

As for Steve being called evil or idiotic by our members, those are not our words. Actually, a quick look through this topic shows that everyone's been talking about his actions rather than labeling him something, except for me (who couldn't resist but directly call him a prissy d*ck xD) And tbh, if you lose a war and make demands and refuse to negotiate and leave like you're the one controlling the negotiations then I'll stand by calling him that

[Prefonteen]

The two situations are completely different. It is undeniable that a ts member post disturbing videos. Ts has not shown evidence that Steve changed pictures, you guys just assume he is guilty. Steve even said he will not lie in a surrender or something like that. That implies he does not believe he is responsible.

 

As for peace talks breaking down, that happens. Alpha gave you terms and you rejected them for legitimate reasons. However on the first couple of pages in this thread ts members implied peace talks ended due to Steve being evil, idiotic, or whatnot. That is not true.

 

 

The peace talks ended for a myriad of reasons. We've gone over them so I won't pull them up again. What we found to be idiotic was his refusal to acknowledge Val as t$' representative. That was unneccessary posturing without any possible gain to be had from it. I do hope we can agree on that? He is free to do so, but it is going to strain negotiations. Actions and consequences and all that.

 

The situations are different. The issue I see, is that we immediately handled the matter by disciplining the member and issueing an apology (on multiple occasions now). Your government has chosen not to accept that initial apology and is now going out making false claims about t$' handling of the matter. The claims that t$ has not apologized, that t$ has refused to discipline our member etc. are simply incorrect, and a suspicious soul would conclude that lacking moral highground, Steve and James are merely trying to find PR weapons to throw at t$ in hopes of dragging t$ reputation down with them. We will never know whether that is the actual intent, but it damn sure looks like it.

 

That brings us to the core of our issue, really. We have been doing this dance for the entirety of the war (and prior to it), both in backchannels and in public. Steve and James make factually incorrect statements, project warped realities and outright lie abut The $yndicate across the board. Roy and I, upon being tipped (in private) or upon seeing it in public, refute the claims made by Alpha, utilizing logs and evidence to support our view. This is generally followed by a combination of Strawmans and ad hominems, and ultimately Steve/James departing the thread, to bring up a new false claim a few days later. 

 

From an IC point of view, that's entirely acceptable. They are free to play the game as they see fit, and rumormongering is a part of politics. The actions do play a large factor in why we are currently at war, and I leave it up to you to review whether you see some truth in my statement or not.

 

Recently, the ante has been upped however, as we have increasingly delved into OOC matters. To give you a short timeline:

 

- As the war began, one of our members (the one discussed in this thread) posted the video in your public channel. He was promptly disciplined and we apologized. This has been documented now.

- Steve and James have since, weaponized the incident on multiple occasions, trying to cast t$ as a whole, its government and its members in a bad OOC light (Our community strongly dislikes OOC spilling into IC, and takes offense to any such accusations. As Roy mentioned, we keep a clean ship and promptly handle anything on our path. If you do have any concerns, contact us by all means). 

- Steve has in the propaganda thread explicitly claimed that I have personally crossed the OOC line with him, and that t$ as a whole has done so. Upon being asked for specifics on what we did in that regard, so we can correct it, Steve left the thread and stopped commenting.

- In that exact same post where he accused myself and t$ of crossing the OOC line, Steve posted a propaganda piece that insinuated I was a light-skinned nerd tryhard who never goes outside. I do not mind the insinuation being made- Stuff happens and we made no big deal out of it, but it's hypocritical to make such accusations only to cross the line yourself.

- James and Steve have, both in this thread and outside of it, repeatedly referred to the video incident and used it to derail arguments.

- The eumir matter occurred and by all means, Steve is the most likely suspect: He posted the initial image as part of his propaganda spree. As he created the original image, he would be the one hosting it, and the most likely to change the link. 

- When the link was changed, *multiple* alpha members immediately jumped on the thread to shit on Eumir and t$ as a whole, insinuating that Eumir condones rape/rape jokes and t$ as a whole condones it by virtue of supporting Eumir.

 

It's quite easy to  make outrageous statements to capture the attention of a viewer- many in the real world as well as in these games have utilized it for indoctrination purposes. And therein lies our problem. Whenever a statement like that is made, regardless of whether t$ later refutes it as an outright lie, there will be viewers who do not conduct much research. Readers who skim over the thread, read the statement and subsequently find themselves believing t$ condones OOC attacks. If they do not happen to stumble upon our explanation, it means that misconception continues to linger in their heads.

 

That's fine where it entails IC matters, we will find ways to counter it IC. But you will find t$ unwilling to let go when it concerns repeated OOC slander. Lines have been crossed on multiple occasions here, and I see no remorse from your leaders. Only more spin.

 

EDIT: https://politicsandwar.com/forums/index.php?/topic/12773-future-for-alpha/#entry238142

 

Please view the above link re: why we believe steve is at the very least complicit.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Partisan

[Sisyphus]

The difference being tS assumes Steve is guilty without any proof. I don't know who hosted the image, we thought it funny and posted the "shit posting guide." Circumstantial.

Why would HopeSolo accuse Eumir of making a rape joke before the image even changed from the t$ shitposting guide?

 

He was either:

1) The culprit.

or

2) Coordinating with the culprit.

[James II]

Why would HopeSolo accuse Eumir of making a rape joke before the image even changed from the t$ shitposting guide?

 

He was either:

1) The culprit.

or

2) Coordinating with the culprit.

How would he have a screenshot of the image in Eumir's post, before the image was changed?

[Roy Mustang]

The difference being tS assumes Steve is guilty without any proof. I don't know who hosted the image, we thought it funny and posted the "shit posting guide." Circumstantial.

 

LordofDeath posted a rape video in our channel, that is undeniable

LordofDeath said he was going to skull F*** Steve that is undeniable

 

tS members came to us apologizing and said they would let tri know right away. To our surprise, he simply got a "warn" from tS gov. 

 

The circumstances are far from similar. One is a repeat offender, the other is simply assumed to be an offender.

 

I'll respond to your post here since for whatever reason you don't find it appropriate to respond to mine.

 

Eumirbago took the image that Steve posted, and re-posted it with his own commentary (something that many people, including uninvolved and uninterested parties, such as GPA members, can and have attested to). Subsequently, the image in Eumirbago's post changed to the image in question, and Steve's original propaganda post containing the image just so happened to be edited to remove said piece of propaganda (if you liked it, why get rid of it, after all). Please don't insult all of our intelligence by implying that Steve was unaware of what was going on. At best, someone screwed with his image and he's taken advantage of it to make Eumirbago look bad while knowing he didn't do anything (which, in itself, is apology-worthy). Worst case, he changed the image himself. There's really no point on this spectrum where Steve didn't do something shitty though.

 

Regarding LoD: You're the only person referring to his discipline as a warn, so drop the quotation marks as you've quoted no one. A mixture of internal disciplinary measures have been implemented in his case, including some that will not take effect until the cessation of hostilities as they are economic in nature. We're punishing him just fine, and some people would rather leave an alliance than face the sum total of his discipline. But again, if you'd like to discuss appropriate disciplinary measures, my query is open (and conspicuously empty at present). 

 

You are correct that the circumstances are far from similar. I'm actually punishing my alliance's OOC attacker.

[Sisyphus]

How would he have a screenshot of the image in Eumir's post, before the image was changed?

He didn't.

 

He spelled the accussation out in plain text. Still evident by his unedited post at the top of the page I linked in my more thorough explanation on the previous page of this thread.

[Eumirbago]

The two situations are completely different. It is undeniable that a ts member post disturbing videos. Ts has not shown evidence that Steve changed pictures, you guys just assume he is guilty. Steve even said he will not lie in a surrender or something like that. That implies he does not believe he is responsible.

 

As for peace talks breaking down, that happens. Alpha gave you terms and you rejected them for legitimate reasons. However on the first couple of pages in this thread ts members implied peace talks ended due to Steve being evil, idiotic, or whatnot. That is not true.

 

To add on to what Beowulf and Wilhelm has already stated:

 

I was making fun of some propaganda that Steve posted here: https://politicsandwar.com/forums/index.php?/topic/12367-syndicateterminus-est-v-alpha-war-propaganda-thread/page-11#entry236421

 

Obviously, he edited out the picture on the hour of the attacks and in order to preserve the time I took a screenshot earlier (Hopefully this one can't be edited as well, but here it goes): 

 

Now, when Hope Solo started posting their nonsense here: https://politicsandwar.com/forums/index.php?/topic/12364-hello-alpha/page-10#entry237539

 

As evident to our posts, you can see that we have not been aware of the changes to the image because it might not have gone live yet. Again, to preserve the time it was posted and the original post, here is another screenshot that hopefully doesn't get altered: 

 

So if it wasn't Steve that altered the image on the link: http://i.imgur.com/RQXwzri.jpg(Apparently someone altered it again), then he should know who hosted the image because the image came exactly from the post he made in the propaganda thread here: https://politicsandwar.com/forums/index.php?/topic/12367-syndicateterminus-est-v-alpha-war-propaganda-thread/page-11#entry236421

 

If Steve did not change the picture himself, then he is the only one that knows who really did as it came from his post.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Eumirbago

[Ivan the Red]

Also a ts member posted a disturbing video in alpha irc, but alpha let it slide because we understand it's the Internet and people do stupid stuff.

 

Two pages later, you and the rest of Alpha don't look like having let it slide. At all. On the contrary, you are using it as justification on why your leader must not apologize or even acknowelde responsibility for actively framing a Syndicate member as a supporter of rape.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Ivan the Red

[Roy Mustang]

How would he have a screenshot of the image in Eumir's post, before the image was changed?

He (she?) didn't.

 

This is Hope Solo's initial post (no screenshot): https://politicsandwar.com/forums/index.php?/topic/12364-hello-alpha/?p=237539

 

This is Hope Solo's mod report over an hour later: https://politicsandwar.com/forums/index.php?/topic/12750-post-joking-about-datedrunk-rape/

 

Actually fits quite nicely with the timeline Wilhelm explained.

[Eumirbago]

In the event should the images I uploaded be altered, you guys don't have to hesitate to let me know and I will reupload the images to another site so that you can see it again.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Eumirbago

[Avruch]

He (she?) didn't.

 

This is Hope Solo's initial post (no screenshot): https://politicsandwar.com/forums/index.php?/topic/12364-hello-alpha/?p=237539

 

This is Hope Solo's mod report over an hour later: https://politicsandwar.com/forums/index.php?/topic/12750-post-joking-about-datedrunk-rape/

 

Actually fits quite nicely with the timeline Wilhelm explained.

 

So it wasn't just Steve being a dick and his fellows backing him up, it was actually a conspiracy between Steve and at least one other member of his high government. It stands to reason the others were on board as well. I don't know why tS would even accept an apology at this point, if one were offered. 

[Sisyphus]

So it wasn't just Steve being a dick and his fellows backing him up, it was actually a conspiracy between Steve and at least one other member of his high government. It stands to reason the others were on board as well. I don't know why tS would even accept an apology at this point, if one were offered.

Based on all the evidence present I can confidently assert this:

 

1.) Steve played an informed and consenting part in things, whether he actively changed the image or not he took efforts to cover the culprits tracks and allowed his members to play up the false narrative. It's doubtful he's taken out any disciplinary action whatsoever against the member.

 

2.) Hope Solo was an informed participant in the lie. Posting an accusation before the image was even changed and taking it even further by reporting Eumir's tampered post to the Mods.

 

3.) Caecus, though I can not say with certainty that he was informed, actively tried to spin the ruse against the Syndicate.

 

4.) James II is either informed and conspiring to defend the culprit or has not been properly informed of the incident.

[Lord Bagel]

Honestly I just want this to all be over so we can get back to our real plans doing MENSA HQ's bidding

[Buorhann]

Honestly I told t$ that I wouldn't bother talking to Alpha anymore and just keep rolling them.  Each and every single one of them, but that's me.

 

I saw the original message from Eumir.  It had the image of the shitposting guide that Placentica posted up.  Then I noticed Placentica had edited it out of his reply from the original source.

 

Once I read the logs of the peace talks, I pretty much told t$ leadership that I wouldn't bother with Alpha any more.

 

 

It's gone too far.  If members of Alpha wants peace, they can come to t$ leadership and talk it out.  Normally the victors doesn't go to their enemies to offer them white peace, and sure as hell the losers don't get to dictate the terms.

 

Syndicate has wide spread score of nations in the alliance.  And with Sheepy's score change, we can keep Alpha pinned down for a long time.