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I got a real issue to address in this game and community


Buorhann
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4 minutes ago, KiWilliam said:

Doesn't this logic apply to using Yarr just the same, or anyone that's not your gov.

Never used Yarr as an offshore.  I always had my own.  And my own gov running bots, not some outsider.

 

Seriously, if anybody supports this, you're stupid as hell.  Giving that much control over to a singular player.  Or hell, even an alliance in Yarr's case.

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17 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

borg
i offshore for 59 alliances in the game
mostly micros

 

If you're one of those alliances that relies on this player being your offshore.

What the [email protected]#$ are you thinking?

Gotta stay ahead of the game Bour. If you are gonna lose your entire bank, it's better to let the person you offshored it too steal it rather than losing it from a war.

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1 minute ago, His Holy Decagon said:

Borg literally helps micros have some form of offshore protection and provides one of the only sources of public tech to them as well as 1 on 1 assistance on a near 24/7 basis. Not sure if this is a troll post or not

Definitely not a troll post.

Offshoring is just part of the issue with this player.  Apparently one of his bots requires Admin access to your Discord server to run?

 

LOL, what the hell.

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1 minute ago, Buorhann said:

Definitely not a troll post.

Offshoring is just part of the issue with this player.  Apparently one of his bots requires Admin access to your Discord server to run?

 

LOL, what the hell.

I think maybe the server you’re on gave Borg/Locutus Admin, but it’s definitely not a requirement at all

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9 minutes ago, His Holy Decagon said:

I think maybe the server you’re on gave Borg/Locutus Admin, but it’s definitely not a requirement at all

Let me ask you then, does he need admin access to set it up on your server?  Or can you set it up instead of him?

And how secure is the bot?  Can he pull information through the bot from your server, for example?

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8 minutes ago, Buorhann said:

Let me ask you then, does he need admin access to set it up on your server?  Or can you set it up instead of him?

And how secure is the bot?  Can he pull information through the bot from your server, for example?

CATA has Locutus, but it’s limited to only a few channels. Probably easier for Borg to debug and help assist if there’s Admin, but I’d say that’s most likely up to the alliance as far as what they’re comfortable with. The last time I saw, Locutus was in 1100+ servers; I don’t think Borg has the capability to, nor the time to peruse through potentially 10,000+ channels. I personally trust him and Locutus, and haven’t heard of any actual credible reason/evidence not to tbh

I’d say maybe ask those who offshore with him, or those that know him what they think

Edited by His Holy Decagon
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11 minutes ago, His Holy Decagon said:

CATA has Locutus, but it’s limited to only a few channels. Probably easier for Borg to debug and help assist if there’s Admin, but I’d say that’s most likely up to the alliance as far as what they’re comfortable with. The last time I saw, Locutus was in 1100+ servers; I don’t think Borg has the capability to, nor the time to peruse through potentially 10,000+ channels. I personally trust him and Locutus, and haven’t heard of any actual credible reason/evidence not to tbh

I’d say maybe ask those who offshore with him, or those that know him what they think

borg — 
RE: using bots to leak opsec, Locutus does not require, and currently is not requesting message access. It can only parse messages which mention the bot, or are sent by the bot.


>parse messages that mention the bot
>quick search on mentioning the bot
>reveals transferring funds
>reveals military targeting
>reveals inactivity
>reveals locating targets information

 

Ya'll better be real tight on that trust if you're using his bot(s).

Edited by Buorhann
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I mean, there are worse offshores you could have...

Consider this. If, for whatever highly questionable reason, you were to have me as your offshore, you'd lose your money to raiders and nations countering me (there are quite a few of those) within a couple of days.

Offshore with Luna, you may lose all  your money to raiders, but hey, at least it's not being stolen by your offshore!

Seriously, though, even though I'm a nation that's never really been involved with offshores because every alliance I've had a gov position in disbanded within a week (that would be three alliances, two of which I founded), I think that it is important for smaller alliances to have a place to keep their resources safe. I know that some raiders, myself included, will raid nations in micros since it's difficult for them to counter, so I'd say that having an offshore would be helpful, even if it's hard to trust some nations with that much economic power.

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That's all I have to say.

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Locutus offshoring is ok if you don't have a better option (for e.g a secure active offshore that can send you RSS within a reasonable amount of time).

I have heard of shady stuff that Borg did with that money he kept for others, though I doubt that he does do it now.

Btw, you good with me suiciding my ground into you so it doesn't contribute to Roseclipse stats @Borg?

 

well, ya better be, thx babe

 

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3 hours ago, Buorhann said:

borg — 
RE: using bots to leak opsec, Locutus does not require, and currently is not requesting message access. It can only parse messages which mention the bot, or are sent by the bot.


>parse messages that mention the bot
>quick search on mentioning the bot
>reveals transferring funds
>reveals military targeting
>reveals inactivity
>reveals locating targets information

 

Ya'll better be real tight on that trust if you're using his bot(s).

I couldn't care less about locutus besides seeing funny war numbers get larger but that is a really bad take my guy.

>reveals transferring funds
If the offshore was run manually he would still see this information, this isn't private. Alliance to nation transactions are also easily traceable.
>reveals military targeting
Damn... As if having war declared on you or the mass militarisation of an alliance wouldn't give that information away anyway. (Although I guess this is the only point that holds some relevance.... If borg was in a major alliance or enjoyed leaking stuff like that assuming he could yoink it. But judging on how the past few globals have gone, that's really not relevant)
>reveals inactivity
Literally an inbuilt feature in the game on nations....
>reveals locating targets information
???? Now the bot can see information it was giving you? Or is this just point 2 rehashed again. 

Now I don't support using borg for tech/offshores IF you have the ability to make your own. But realistically many players are not skilled or knowledgeable enough to do that. 

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59 minutes ago, Zevari said:

I couldn't care less about locutus besides seeing funny war numbers get larger but that is a really bad take my guy.

>reveals transferring funds
If the offshore was run manually he would still see this information, this isn't private. Alliance to nation transactions are also easily traceable.
>reveals military targeting
Damn... As if having war declared on you or the mass militarisation of an alliance wouldn't give that information away anyway. (Although I guess this is the only point that holds some relevance.... If borg was in a major alliance or enjoyed leaking stuff like that assuming he could yoink it. But judging on how the past few globals have gone, that's really not relevant)
>reveals inactivity
Literally an inbuilt feature in the game on nations....
>reveals locating targets information
???? Now the bot can see information it was giving you? Or is this just point 2 rehashed again. 

Now I don't support using borg for tech/offshores IF you have the ability to make your own. But realistically many players are not skilled or knowledgeable enough to do that. 

When you use commands to find a target in an alliance, that can be used.  Say...  if an alliance is using lots of commands against, I don't know, Cataclysm and their allies - it's not just a coincidence, it's a plan in motion.

That could be used to tip them off.

I don't know how some of you folks play now, but in the past, bots were used to help organize target sheets for the members.  If he can collect that information, which he can per his words if you use his bot, that information can be dispersed out before a war even happens.

 

You're right that people can do this with their own bots or do it manually, and that's fine, but through his bot that many use he can trace whatever information you're seeking and report it to whoever his interests is aligned with.

This is just one point of it.  Information is power.  The fact he can collect whatever information he wants given that there's a command used from his bot to get it, that's a problem.  Doesn't matter if it can be done in other ways.  If he's not in your alliance and you're using his bot, he has access to your information from whatever you use his bot for.

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Shocking to me how many don't get the point here. That and the guy who thinks apparently Bots can see offshore transferring without having API of gov with bank access???

 

The point here is Borg is literally the biggest OPSEC breach ever just waiting to happen.

"Oh but I know borg he's cool!!!!!!1!1!1!1!1!1" not the point here lads. The point here is this man is accountable to no one and has a big red button he can push to [email protected]#$ all y'all. Why would he do it? Who knows? Who cares. 

 

The point isn't why, the point is he could, and there is literally nothing you can do about it. Giving even ally made tools this much information is already a pretty substantial trust fall in itself, this man ain't even an ally to all these folks, it's a straight up leap of faith.

 

That, if you somehow didn't gleam it, is the actual point being made by Bour. You're playing with fire and hoping it stays content with not burning you. You're creating a risk for your alliance that you can't mitigate or control.

 

Frankly, if you can't manage to run your own offshore, I think the problem is deeper in that you can't manage to run your own alliance to begin with.

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4 hours ago, Buorhann said:

This is just one point of it.  Information is power.  The fact he can collect whatever information he wants given that there's a command used from his bot to get it, that's a problem.  Doesn't matter if it can be done in other ways.  If he's not in your alliance and you're using his bot, he has access to your information from whatever you use his bot for.

I mean sure it does potentially provide access to information, but you do need to break this down a bit. Borg already stated above that self hosting is possible which already negates a decent amount of risk.
Secondly the fact that half this argument is built off as you said "It can only parse messages" seems a tad flawed. Pretty much every bot needs to be able to read messages sent to it to provide a response in turn. 
You also need to look at the alliances using the bot, do they have access to a better alternative? Or are they unable to produce tech of that level. Are they even relevant enough to bother spying on? 

The only part I really agree on is the risk of offshoring but even then it's better than having it all looted (or investing in a business)
 

1 hour ago, Zei-Sakura Alsainn said:

That and the guy who thinks apparently Bots can see offshore transferring without having API of gov with bank access???

Pretty sure you are referencing me here. I was talking about if Borg did offshoring manually those bank transactions would still be on record, might of been poorly worded oh well.
 

1 hour ago, Zei-Sakura Alsainn said:

1 - The point here is Borg is literally the biggest OPSEC breach ever just waiting to happen.

2 - The point here is this man is accountable to no one and has a big red button he can push to [email protected]#$ all y'all. Why would he do it? Who knows? Who cares. 

3 - The point isn't why, the point is he could, and there is literally nothing you can do about it. 

4 - That, if you somehow didn't gleam it, is the actual point being made by Bour. You're playing with fire and hoping it stays content with not burning you. You're creating a risk for your alliance that you can't mitigate or control.

5 - Frankly, if you can't manage to run your own offshore, I think the problem is deeper in that you can't manage to run your own alliance to begin with.

1 - If I'm being honest, I would quite enjoy an OPSEC breach of that scale. It would create a giant shitshow and i'm all for it. You kinda have a point here, but at the same time considering how common spies and leaks are in major alliances it wouldn't really be anything new besides the quantity of information.

2 - Is anyone accountable in this game? Whats the difference between joining a random alliance and depositing safe keepings to this? Both could just suddenly yoink the bank, if anything borg stands to lose more than any one person who holds an offshore for an alliance. Sure, you could say something along the lines of "oh but you know/trust/vetted the person in your alliance who handles the offshore". But you could do literally the same thing with borg, it isn't hard to message people in public or private on discord. For a new micro who isn't entirely sure on their gov it's a great option considering the reputation and credibility.

3 - Again, there is literally nothing you could do if the person running your alliance yoinked the bank. That's just how this game works.

4 - Yeah I agree with this point, it's a risk you need to evaluate. Everything has it's pros and cons but you can't apply a blanket answer to everything, shit don't work like that. (Also saying you can't mitigate or control the risk seems rather dumb, you can do a lot of things to minimise your risk)

5 - I know this part is hard to comprehend, but this game isn't just c20+ players with years of experience. There are a lot of newbies who play outside of major alliances, doing their own thing and finding their own enjoyment in the game. While the vocal part of the player base does it best to suppress them they do exist and many of those players don't have the experience, knowledge or understanding to run half the services borg provides. *Insert irony about calling others ignorant here*

Thank you for listening to my TED Talk.

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