How does the Democratic People's Republic of Korea still exist as a nation?

[Franz Von Dietrich]

He's trolling you.

Yes, I've noticed. He's that old Cambodian guy, who used to say "Christianity is socalism!!!" or used to accuse everyone of being a bourgeoisie. 

[Caecus]

Literally nobody here is correct so far.

 

No, North Korea's nuclear weapons program is a joke that nobody takes seriously, and their capacity for using it in the face of an overwhelming, crippling first-strike from a US-led coalition is a farce.

 

No, North Korea's "economic reforms" are the same "reforms" they've had every year when their harvest fails.  They've been starving for decades and promise changes and reform every time they want food.

 

No, North Koreans can not just rebel.  What are they going to rebel with, sticks?  They're malnourished, starving, weak people with no way to communicate for an effective resistance, with no weapons, no leadership, and NO FOOD.  You can't fight when you're dying.  At even a hint of resistance the government steals able men from families and puts them in camps where they're torn to death by dogs, raped, and worked to death.

 

No, their military is not "mega huge".  It's got a lot of untrained, leaderless, old-fashioned soldiers in a modern world for a small country.  It's a way to keep people occupied and fed by making them dependent on the DPRK government to survive.  Their equipment is falling apart at best and completely useless at worse.  The worst they could do is a handful of artillery towards Seoul before being glassed.

 

No, China and Russia's reactions are not a worry.  China dislike the DPRK and Russia only tolerates it for free slave labor.

 

The real reason the DPRK still exists is because if the Kim regime falls and the people are "free" then you're going to destroy the entire East Asian economy and it would lead to a much worse humanitarian disaster than ever, one we can't afford.

 

East and West Germany were only separated for a few decades, and the Berlin Wall wasn't even up 30 years.  Korea has been separate for 62 years.  Germany is a multi-faceted nation and one of the premier economies on Earth, and has been powerful for a significant period.  The huge manufacturing base and significant economic rebuilding and recovery by the Allies led to a country that, despite being split in two, would come out of the fission relatively okay.  AND IN SPITE OF ALL THIS, just catching up East Germany to West Germany has cost *trillions* of dollars over *decades* and still has yet to be finished.  This is IN SPITE OF: a relatively modern economy, literacy, modern skills useful to creating and holding jobs, higher education, and an entire continent of support.

 

North Korea has none of that.  Their country split and rapidly became worthless.  The manufacturing base of North Korea is non-existent.  They have no economy of any kind outside of exploiting people for slave labor for raw resources.  Their people are illiterate, unskilled, uneducated, malnourished, and the country has nothing to grow with - we would have to build effectively the entire country's economy from the ground up.  Do you really expect people who have been oppressed for 62 years to just magically be okay with staying where they are?  No - there's going to be mass migrations into Russia, into China, into Korea, into Japan, into America.  Millions and millions of starving, uneducated, unskilled, foreign workers with no prospects for a future as a whole will be flooding into some of the most prosperous economies on Earth and absolutely crippling them.

 

Tens of trillions of dollars that nobody has will need to be spent just trying to catch them partially up to the rest of the world, and that's only after years of economic disaster world-wide.

 

THAT is why the DPRK still exists.

 

He's right about reintegration. The South Korean economy would suffer a huge blow, though it is speculation as to whether or not it would collapse and affect the regional economies. There is, no doubt, however, the significant lack of industrialization and natural resources in North Korea will hamper the regional stability. Not to mention the mass of unskilled labor in an industrialized economy. 

 

I do think that without the leadership keeping the population in, the other nations, and most definitely China would close their borders. Hell, not even SK would keep their borders open. 

Edited November 6, 2015 by Caecus

[----]

I think that we, persons living outside of the DPRK, cannot even begin to correctly answer this question posed by the thread.

 

The Original Poster claims that the sheer number of defections, extreme poverty, and repression would cause any nation to collapse.

 

However, I must ask, where do we, the average citizen of (insert country), receive our information regarding the DPRK? The DPRK is a closed country, not only to its own citizens, but to the rest of the world. Most of what we (the outside world) know about the DPRK comes from information gathered by intelligence services and defectors. Assuming that the information made public by various intelligence agencies is accurate, we are certainly only receiving the tip of the iceberg.   

Consequently, various news outlets and public media possessing only this limited information, add various degrees of speculation to round out the various details.

 

No case better exemplifies this media speculation than the stories produced about General Kim Jong Il's mourners. Most news western sources made it appear that the entire nation was forced at gunpoint to mourn in the most dramatic fashion. Yet, the same type of mourning took place in the relatively free Republic of Korea. In other words, such public displays of grief are normal Korean funerary rituals, not the mad developments of a totalitarian system.

 

As for the defectors, there have been verified reports of wild stories concocted simply because they garnered money. Such incidents have been documented by the ROK (Republic of Korea). Furthermore, take into consideration that defectors and dissident usually constitute a small minority bearing specific grievances against the system. Ask an American white supremacist if the United States is a free country and he will answer quite differently from the average citizen. 

I am not denigrating dissidents and defectors, but I simply want persons to be aware of the realities beyond popular narratives.

 

In short, the information that we are privy to does not produce an accurate image of the DPRK. 

 

I am not saying this in the spirit of 'the west is bad, the DPRK is paradise'. That is equally absurd for the same reasons. I simply challenge the various readers to not take certain 'facts' at face value. In short, we should not assume too much when we veritably know too little.  

[Conner Temple]

North Koreas Nuclear Arsenal is likewise to a miniature nuclear bomb, less powerful than Hiroshima. See this- http://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/

[Franz Von Dietrich]

Guys, the DPRK isn't bad as you say it is.

 

SANATATION AND HEALTHCARE

 

IN 2000,99/100 people have Sanatation and everyone has clean drinking water. There is 132 hospital beds per 10000 , which is better than the American and british ratio, 30 per 10000 people. It also beat Canada's, 32 Per 10000.

 

http://kff.org/global-indicator/hospital-beds/

 

Yes, Your better off sick in North Korea than Canada.

 

FOOD

 

 

North Korea isn't the least fed Asian Nation, According to the UN for 2000, Tajikistan and Indochina exepect Vietnam have worse.

 

Not only that, Kim Jong Un made progress.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/05/north-korea-economic-reforms-show-signs-paying-off

 

Yes, You can own a Market in North Korea. You can Keep your own food.

 

 

So You're better off in North Korea than Tajikistan. Your life may also be improving.

 

DEFECTORS

The stories of The defectors are either Lies or Exaggerated. Why? Because they apy you to lie.

 

Some examples include:

Lee Soon-ok offered testimony to the U.S. House of Representatives in 2004 about torture and burning Christians to death in hot iron liquid in a North Korean political prison. Lee was, however, later found not to be a political prisoner but a petty economic criminal.

 

Similarly, Kwon Hyuk gave accounts to the U.S. Congress that he was an intelligence officer at the DPRK Embassy in Beijing and witnessed human experiments in political prisons, which became a critical factor for passing the U.S. North Korea Human Rights Act in 2004. Kwon’s identity, however, was questioned by South Korea’s Yonhap News Agency, which argued that he never had access to such information. Kwon has since disappeared from public eyes.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/01/19/north-korean-defectors-are-crucial-but-sometimes-unreliable-witnesses/

 

Yes, Defectors Work as their JOBS to exaggerate their stories. You'll be paid $50 to $500 per hour, which Was confessed by the ROK Minister.

 

 

And guss what? If you make your story more emotional, or you lie and exaggerate, You'll get Paid MORE.

 

I'll end this with a quite from a North Korean Defector.

 

 

“Most North Koreans do not worry about small factual mistakes as long as the big picture that North Korea violates human rights is right.â€

 

 

We, North Koreans, know what is true and what is fake, but at the same time we do not want to ruin the bigger political moves like the UN committee of investigation or the US Human Rights Act.â€

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/13/why-do-north-korean-defector-testimonies-so-often-fall-apart

What do you mean "We North Koreans"? First off, I highly doubt you live in the DPRK with internet access, secondly They wouldn't call themselves "North Koreans" as that is a American term developed in the Korean War and Cold War.

[Fox Fire]

So You're better off in North Korea than Tajikistan.

 

That's not saying much.

 

The stories of The defectors are either Lies or Exaggerated.

 

Except they aren't.

[Licorice]

I would suggest Sheepy make an ignore button but I'll run out of people to talk to if he did.

[Fox Fire]

I would suggest Sheepy make an ignore button but I'll run out of people to talk to if he did.

There is an ignore option. For example, I have Inst on ignore. I can't see his posts unless I want to.

EDIT: Just took him off since he's not as annoying as he used to be.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Fox Fire

[Bernie Sanders The 2nd]

There is an ignore option. For example, I have Inst on ignore. I can't see his posts unless I want to.

EDIT: Just took him off since he's not as annoying as he used to be.

inst is a good poster and i dont know why you dislike him

[Rozalia]

inst is a good poster and i dont know why you dislike him

 

[Franz Von Dietrich]

inst is a good poster and i dont know why you dislike him

Can't say the same for you.

[Sargun]

lmao at someone citing north korean propaganda to insist north korea has good healthcare and education

 

lmao at someone citing a hypothetical missile range chart for a <1mt nuclear weapon for a missile system that hasn't successfully been tested since the 1990s to prove their nuclear program is formidable

 

It's like talking to children whose only knowledge of the subject comes from a vague overview of "google north korea facts"

[Tali]

lmao at someone citing north korean propaganda to insist north korea has good healthcare and education

 

lmao at someone citing a hypothetical missile range chart for a <1mt nuclear weapon for a missile system that hasn't successfully been tested since the 1990s to prove their nuclear program is formidable

 

It's like talking to children whose only knowledge of the subject comes from a vague overview of "google north korea facts"

Sargun pls be nice the children

[Fox Fire]

lmao at someone citing north korean propaganda to insist north korea has good healthcare and education

 

lmao at someone citing a hypothetical missile range chart for a <1mt nuclear weapon for a missile system that hasn't successfully been tested since the 1990s to prove their nuclear program is formidable

 

It's like talking to children whose only knowledge of the subject comes from a vague overview of "google north korea facts"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_Korean_missile_tests

[Quasar]

I don't have much place in this conversation but I always look at this trailer for a video game that flopped.

It's called the 'future history' trailer and it came out early 2011. The trailer predicts Kim Jong Il's death in 2012 and low and behold it happened, they have been wrong on some stuff but it is a interesting watch,

 

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQeQWWKKvq4 

 

[WISD0MTREE]

Here is why the DPRK is still around. If we invaded, we would have a huge humanitarian crisis. I actually think that Kim keeps the people malnourished to prevent any invasion. 

 

Holy shit, guys. This is a hostage situation. We need to send in SWAT or something! 

[Fox Fire]

I can admit that there are many misconceptions about DPRK. There are good aspects of it, but the picture you're trying to paint is absurd. They have thousands of people effectively enslaved, many people are homeless, there is a shortage of housing, malnutrition is so rampant that North Koreans on average are shorter than South Koreans, living conditions in most of the nation are deplorable, electricity is a commodity even for the elite in Pyongyang. You point out that apparently everyone in DPRK is literate. Do you know what the term kkotjebi means? If conditions are this bad in the best parts of the nation, I have no reason to doubt the atrocities claimed by defectors or the conditions of the labor camps. Looking at Shins story, it may have slightly changed recently, but it's still the same story. I'm not going to buy the North Korean governments claims as being any more legitimate when they've built an entire nation on lies and fairy tales. 

[Fox Fire]

Actually, North Korea has alright Housing.

You can fly to Pyingyang and see apartements, you see raod; and you can see Stadiums.

 

The World's tallest hotel and biggest stadium is in Pyongyang.

 

You mean the hotels that are always empty and basically only available to tourists?

Here's what you'll see if you travel to North Korea as a tourist:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oULO3i5Xra0

Or maybe you'll even get to see the Mangyongdae fun fair if they can scrounge up enough people to make it look like real:

http://www.vice.com/read/north-korea-fun-fair-mangyongdae-hoban-death

Oh boy! Looks like something out of the 1950s! So fun! Much wow! 

As for agriculture, the situation was improving a great deal, but then started getting worse. North Korea is still pretty far from being self reliant food wise. Malnutrition is still extremely rampant. I'd assume part of the reason is the fact that all of their farming is done by hand just like everything in North Korea. It's almost like tools and machinery don't exist unless used for war. They can afford to enrich uranium but God forbid they try mechanizing their agriculture or maybe using something called a lawnmower instead of scissors. 

 

And No, the DPRK and Kim Jong Un aren't "ê±°ìŸì´" s, There is Evidence Everyone in north korea can read.

 

Except that kotjebi are literally not accounted for because the North Korean government says they do not exist. The very mention of the word is banned from official documents and there is no reasonable way to account for them. Or political prisoners who are raised in labor camps for that matter. Further more, yes, schooling is provided to everyone in the nation (assuming you officially exist), but the reality of it is far different. You'll get a real education if you're part of the elite. Other than that, you're lucky to get beyond learning how to read and much of your schooling is more along the lines of physical labor. Even if you do, your textbooks are outdated. This is how their society works. Your social standing and quality of life is heavily dependent on who's !@#$ you popped out of and how much you're willing to spread the governments fairy tails. Even then, even if you are one of these fortunate people, you basically have a 1930's USSR quality of life with no real concept of what the outside world is like. 

As for defectors, their accounts may be skewed and exaggerated with bribes, but they are also mostly consistent with not only each other but also foreign intelligence and information smuggled out of North Korea such as videos from numerous places. But yeah, North Korea is great when it's North Koreans showing you how "modern" and "glorious" their "great nation" is. I mean, !@#$, you can clearly see it from space!

 

 

Ha!! Suck on that Great Wall of China! North Korea modern! North Korea great country!

Clearly, that is why is so many people try to leave. I think if North Korea were as great as you're saying, people might be trying to move in, rather than out, no? No? Didn't think so.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Fox Fire

[Director]

The DPRK exists because noone can be arsed to go through the trouble to take it down. Like, sure they're military is in rather poor condition, but they still got thousands of artillery and mortar pointed at Seoul. The North Korean people aren't the only ones being held hostage, though I imagine that they're situation would be the most unpleasant.

[Franz Von Dietrich]

Actually, North Korea has alright Housing.

You can fly to Pyingyang and see apartements, you see raod; and you can see Stadiums.

 

The World's tallest hotel and biggest stadium is in Pyongyang.

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/Pyongyang-Highrise-Buildings-2014.jpg/400px-Pyongyang-Highrise-Buildings-2014.jpg

 

Yes, You see there a real Modern city with real Mordern Apartments, Just like other devolped countries.

 

 

http://www.teoalida.com/world/northkorea/?fdx_switcher=true

 

As for the living standards, The DPRK Has a Mix. In Cites like Pyongyang, Choungjin, Or Kaesong, You have advanced and Improving standards.

 

http://thediplomat.com/2015/07/how-is-north-koreas-economy-doing/

 

 

Also, Agriculture Is north Korea is Improving under Kim Jong un, Although he is fat, His Reforms Are bringing in good harvest.

 

 

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/11/reforming-north-korea-20141117121917871925.html

 

And No, the DPRK and Kim Jong Un aren't "ê±°ìŸì´" s, There is Evidence Everyone in north korea can read.

 

http://www.asianinfo.org/asianinfo/north%20korea/pro-education.htm

 

Even the CIA Factbook syas it is, so You can read if you're north Korean.

 

http://khis.khu.ac.kr:9090/SummonRecord/FETCH-gale_infotrac_3982192183

 

I still dont see How north Korean defectors are Reliable, The defectors are no better then The Country, The DPRK uses propoganda and Bribes to make The USA look bad, and the Rok and USA Bribes, Pressures, or asks Defectors To Make lies and emotional stories to Stir public reaction.

 

In short, The DPRK propoganda about how much we su(k and the USA and ROK bribes, ptessurings, and Pursading to say lies or emtioms about how much they su(k are Almostthe same thing.

The world tallest "hotel" isn't even finished. You're just biased on this situation, due to the fact your nation is "True Korea". South Korea (ROK) is True Korea.

[Fox Fire]

The Case North Koreans are still malnourished os false, the ardous March Is over. There are a few pockets, But North Korea is ouvable, Especially if you factor in China and The reform North Korean isn't the nost starved nation in Asia, let alone the world.

 

I put up there, Cambodia, Tajikistan, and Loas is all worse off then North Korea.

 

Yes, You do learn things in North Korea. The only time You learn simething false is the Korean war, but you know where timor-leste is and you can speak Mandarin in north korea.

 

And no, You don't have a Ussr life. The north Koreans have a Decent city, Pyingyang,which has useable living standards, and is constantly getting better.

 

http://thediplomat.com/2014/09/kim-jong-uns-north-korea/

 

And You see here they can have Missles with tractors.

 

http://io9.com/the-retro-futuristic-spectacle-of-military-parades-in-n-1123783925?trending_test_c&utm_expid=66866090-62.H_y_0o51QhmMY_tue7bevQ.3&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F

 

And no, The testimony is not Reliable. It's The same propoganda the DPRK uses, and North Koreans belive. The USA and ROL is only doing the same thing, And we're being told propoganda about North korea.

 

North Korean testimonies Falll apart rapidly, And bribed to tell that the DPRK is a poor nation.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/01/19/north-korean-defectors-are-crucial-but-sometimes-unreliable-witnesses/

 

I mmean, When yohr Own dad Tells you you're lying, you are.

 

As for Space, North Korea can into soace. Better then the Pathenic NATO country called Poland.

 

http://m.space.com/18867-north-korea-rocket-launch-satellite.html

LOL! OK, yo. I suppose I'll take the word of someone who can't even spell Pyongyang and has a habit of using the shittiest random sources he can find. You should go move there. I hear they have great internet. 

Well I'm done arguing with somebody who clearly has no grasp on reality, so I'll just leave you with this final peice:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine#Post-famine_developments

North Korea has not yet resumed its food self-sufficiency and relies on external food aid from South Korea, China, the United States, Japan, the European Union and others. In 2002, North Korea requested that food supplies no longer be delivered.^[62]

In the mid-2000s, the World Food Programme (WFP) reported that famine conditions were in imminent danger of returning to North Korea, and the government was reported to have mobilized millions of city-dwellers to help rice farmers.^[63][64] In 2012, WFP reported that food would be sent to North Korea as soon as possible. The food would be processed by a local processor and delivered directly to North Korean citizens.

Agricultural production increased from about 2.7 million metric tons in 1997 to 4.2 million metric tons in 2004.^[58] In 2008, famine continued to be a problem for North Korea, although less so than in the mid to late 1990s. Flooding in 2007 and reductions in food aid exacerbated the problem.^[65]

Stunted growth of North Koreans[edit]

In 2011, during a visit to North Korea, former US President Jimmy Carter reported that one third of children in North Korea were malnourished and stunted in their growth because of a lack of food. He also said that the North Korean government had reduced daily food intake from 5,900 to 2,900 kJ (1,400 to 700 kcal) in 2011^[66] (by comparison, a normal food intake for a healthy European is 8,400 to 10,500 kJ (2,000 to 2,500 kcal) per day^[67]). Some scholars believed that North Korea was purposefully exaggerating the food shortage, aiming to receive additional food supplies for its planned 2012 mass celebrations by means of foreign aid.^[68]

Escaped North Koreans reported in September 2010 that starvation had returned to the nation.^[69] North Korean pre-school children are 3 to 8 cm (1.2 to 3.1 inches) shorter than South Koreans.^[70] Roughly 45% of North Korean children under the age of five are stunted from malnutrition and the population of kotjebi persists.^[71] Most people eat meat only on public holidays, namely Kim Il-sung's and Kim Jong-il's birthdays.^[72]

One report by the Tokyo Shimbun in April 2012 claimed that since the death of Kim Jong-il in December 2011, around 20,000 people had starved to death in South Hwanghae Province.^[73] Another report by the Japanese Asia Press agency in January 2013 claimed that in North and South Hwanghae provinces more than 10,000 people had died of famine. Other international news agencies have begun circulating stories of cannibalism.^[74] However, the World Food Program reported malnutrition and food shortages, but not famine.^[75]

 

^{http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/25/world/north-korea-drought/<2015}

^{http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/19/north-korea-fears-famine-as-drought-halves-food-production-says-un<2015}

^{https://www.hrnk.org/uploads/pdfs/Hunger_and_Human_Rights.pdf<2005}

[Peter Quill]

Or maybe you'll even get to see the Mangyongdae fun fair if they can scrounge up enough people to make it look like real:

http://www.vice.com/read/north-korea-fun-fair-mangyongdae-hoban-death

The Mangyongdae Funfair has pretty funny reviews on Google. Here's a few:

 

 

 

The 1950's technology was a delight, my favorite was "Nuke Splash Mountain" too bad  Kim Jong is the only one who can go on ):

Whenever we play games everyone wins, go communism!

I won a rat!!!

 

 

The Midway here is awesome. They have games like "Hang the Defector" which is a lot like the water dunk games state side. Also, the "Throw the Grenade at the Imperialist Pig" was a literal blast too.

About the only gripe I would really have about this place though is that the Great Leader always wins whether he actually finishes first but that's just fine with me because the Great Leader is always victorious in my eyes

 

my favorite ride at the funfair is the "opression coaster" and the "authoritarian thrill" which is an awesome 100 ft drop tower!

 

I loved the rides. My favourite was the Nuke ride which is the only one people other than Kim are allowed to go on. It is a game where they tie you to a nuclear bomb and then everyone runs as far as they can from you!

 

The Sunshine of Fun and Happiness given to the world by our Great Leader is exemplified beautifully in special Mangyongdae Amusements Park for very fun happy times. Such fun to be had at glorious park, very good time for all family. All Comrades must have special good time at Mangyongdae Funfair. Those who do not have fun at Mangyongdae must take 'special vacation' to wonderful 'fun camps' in Northern reaches of Our Glorious Democratic People's Republic.

 

 

Had a ride on the "Kimmy go round" and the infamous "roller-coaster of the people".

Was riveting experience will visit again sometime in the near future.

 

ALL HAIL KIM JONG UN'S GRANDFATHER FOR THIS MASTERPIECE, HE CREATED THIS WITH HIS OWN TWO HANDS, Seriously it was better than Thorpe Park there was a Rollercoaster which was class, a Merry Go Round with pictures of Kim Jong Un's Face plastered all over it & I hear a New "The Interview" Ride is being constructed soon with footage from the movie, I also played shoot the americans game where you are a NK Soldier and you gun down americans & you win a AK-47 to take home with you, would come back again espically if Kim Jong Un is going to be there.

[Lannan13]

Rebellion is the only path it seems for North Korea to be free of that terrible Kim dynasty. An assassination of Kim himself would likely do it, which just takes one general to think he is next on the chopping block and decide to pop Kim off first. 

 

 

Uh... plenty of other reasons like you know... being completely insane. No one will take a criticism like that seriously if who you're using as an example is North Korea. 

There's been several rumors to that his military is planning a Coup. Kim Jong Un's power has been waning for some time.

[Rozalia]

There's been several rumors to that his military is planning a Coup. Kim Jong Un's power has been waning for some time.

 

I've heard of that, but also that at the same time he is purging people so we'll see. It's possible his purging will have the opposite effect of course which is what I think might happen, people sometimes do things when they are terrified and that goes for his generals too. 

[Lannan13]

I've heard of that, but also that at the same time he is purging people so we'll see. It's possible his purging will have the opposite effect of course which is what I think might happen, people sometimes do things when they are terrified and that goes for his generals too. 

Indeed. Their concentration camps are pretty intiminating. Just one false move by a person then their entire family goes and maybe the branches of their family if it's a bad day for the Kim family.