An appeal to Phoenyx

[Phoenyx]

40 minutes ago, Angantyr said:

The truth doesn't matter much once the nukes start flying, all that ultimately matters is that treaties are honored and who is left standing in the end. Eventually the war will be over, loyalties will reshuffle, rebuilding begins again, and the cycle repeats. It's just the nature of this game. 

My meaningless advice (because I'm a nobody here and that is how I like it) is to find yourself a good leader, learn from him and back him up through thick and thin. If he betrays your trust, never let him live it down. And don't worry so much, you'll give yourself a stroke. This is just a game, and it's all just pixels.

 

I agree a fair amount with what you say, with some caveats- the truth may not matter so much now, as tempers may still be too hot to listen to reason, but as the war drags on, I think people may be more amenable to looking over what they may have initially thought was unquestionably true.

 

I think I have found good leaders, but to paraphrase something I once read in a book, generally the best leadership one can find for how to live one's life lies within. Or at least, it does for me. Clearly, I've made it rather clear that I'm a fan of Tyrion and his Swamp Coalition that he plays a large part in leading, but we clearly haven't always agreed. As to not worrying so much, I'll try :-p. 

[TRM]

2 hours ago, Firwof Kromwell said:

I don't know if you guys are high high or in a giant jerk circle, but it seems like both. Why can't you guys just answer him straight, instead of giving him insult and threats? 

I also open my questions up to CotL, CC, & all the other ppl that have been on our butts

Why am I not surprised that he reminds you of yourself?

[Firwof Kromwell]

4 hours ago, KiWilliam said:

At this point it's just a demonstration of the futile nature of forums controlled by the masses. The Tragedy of the commons. The failure of democracy and a tyranny of mob rule where fools & thieves are pushed to the forefront of our discourse & entertainment.

"You get what you deserve"

For my part I'm putting fuel on the fire while saying my own fuel doesn't stink (what curse words are allowed on the forums?), but I am doing so knowing that it's just for my own amusement. I hope no one is trapped in the loop of wanting a better experience here while also contributing to the low brow & toxic nature of the forums by feeding the very type of behavior they describe to be negative. Stay self aware people.

Ever since the a couple months after the fall of NPO, that's all the forms have become. Even with the media of Orbis, it's the same output being spewed here by that mob rule. I remember when I first constantly active on the forums. I was young and innocent in game, barely anyone knew me, but I saw a lot of changes that should happen. All I got instead was a bunch of sensitive, insecure, and toxic responses. As I progressed, I slowed down cuz I didn't want to deal with it as much as I did back in my day. But when Phoenyx came into play, he fueled my fire more again. He made me remember why I'm still here in the game today and choose to continue playing until further notice. As bad as NPO was power hungry w/ it's allies,  at least they provided a check and balance to the community. For the first couple months, it got better, then it just tanked due to the popular majority seizing dictator like control, taking over the democratic like communication. Until this community is checked & balanced like it was when I around a year old, shall the Devilman continue his bidding here.

[Phoenyx]

6 hours ago, Adrienne said:

People did put in the effort to answer earnestly and all he's done is go on full steam ahead with his same questions that have already been answered to him 100 different ways and made 50 threads about it all. 

 

No, some things have never been answered. The main points that have still gone unanswered:

1- What evidence, if any, did Boyce have to come to the conclusion that HM, TCW and Swamp were going to attack Quack in early December?

2- What did the anonymous HM leader that Ronnie mentioned mean when he said the following:

**Time for a chat my friends. Swamp reached out to me and told me they are talking with TCW about joining together to counter Quack's growth. They are extremely uncomfortable with the idea that allowing Quack to grow and waiting for them to magically break up is a good idea.**

 

Did he mean the defensive plan that everyone acknowledge was taking place at that time or did he mean a first strike initiative? Clearly, what would be even better would be to go to -his- source, presumably in Swamp, but we take what we can get.

6 hours ago, Adrienne said:

People did put in the effort to answer earnestly and all he's done is go on full steam ahead with his same questions that have already been answered to him 100 different ways and made 50 threads about it all. So now we've reached the point where everyone is done entertaining him and this is the result.

It was likely hidden, not deleted, and it was likely done so because it didn't belong in Orbis Central, not because of "popularity". 

 

I argued that it did- it wasn't just about the fact that they'd attacked me, it was an overture at peace, which, in theory, could have a ripple effect in this global war. This forum has a thread on what players like to drink. If you can make a case that that has more to do with Orbis politics then my post, by all means, explain. 

[Adrienne]

1 minute ago, Phoenyx said:

No, some things have never been answered. The main points that have still gone unanswered:

1- What evidence, if any, did Boyce have to come to the conclusion that HM, TCW and Swamp were going to attack Quack in early December?

2- What did the anonymous HM leader that Ronnie mentioned mean when he said the following:

**Time for a chat my friends. Swamp reached out to me and told me they are talking with TCW about joining together to counter Quack's growth. They are extremely uncomfortable with the idea that allowing Quack to grow and waiting for them to magically break up is a good idea.**

 

Did he mean the defensive plan that everyone acknowledge was taking place at that time or did he mean a first strike initiative? Clearly, what would be even better would be to go to -his- source, presumably in Swamp, but we take what we can get.

Both of which have been answered but you continue to ignore/dismiss what people have said and harp on them.

[Phoenyx]

1 minute ago, Adrienne said:

Both of which have been answered but you continue to ignore/dismiss what people have said and harp on them.

 

No, they really haven't been, but by all means, point me to these answers you believe you see. 

[Adrienne]

1 minute ago, Phoenyx said:

No, they really haven't been, but by all means, point me to these answers you believe you see. 

Yeah, they really have been, you just don't like the answers. Per your first, Boyce was the leader of an alliance allied to TCW, where Sphinx was leading. It doesn't take much investigative work, which you claim to be doing, to realize how Boyce would have "come to that conclusion", given the logs that were provided. Per your second, people from both sides have literally been telling you over and again what that means and you ignore them because "Oh, I know Swamp leadership super well and they would never do that". Kudos to you for having faith in your leadership but don't pretend you're being ignored on that question.

[Sir Scarfalot]

1 hour ago, Firwof Kromwell said:

As bad as NPO was power hungry w/ it's allies,  at least they provided a check and balance to the community.

No, they absolutely did not provide 'check and balance'. NPO et al did nothing but let their greed and paranoia consume them to the point that they chose to attack not just their enemies but their allies and even the administrator himself.

Don't even begin to apologize for them. !@#$.

[Prefonteen]

17 hours ago, Firwof Kromwell said:

I don't know if you guys are high high or in a giant jerk circle, but it seems like both. Why can't you guys just answer him straight, instead of giving him insult and threats? 

I also open my questions up to CotL, CC, & all the other ppl that have been on our butts

As adrienne already commented, and as i've already noted to you elsewhere: I took more time to explain very basic concepts and relations to phoenyx very early on because I can appreciate enthusiasm to get into the thick something new. A few others seem to have done the same initially.

My goodwill quickly vaporized when he went off on tangents jumping to conclusions, applying double standards where the credibility of sources is concerned (Quack needs more proof but swamp can be believed at face value because I trust tyrion!), and presenting it as "objective research". His spamming of every single thought/musing he had without filter as his thought process developed (wrongly or not) is 

10 hours ago, Firwof Kromwell said:

Ever since the a couple months after the fall of NPO, that's all the forms have become. Even with the media of Orbis, it's the same output being spewed here by that mob rule. I remember when I first constantly active on the forums. I was young and innocent in game, barely anyone knew me, but I saw a lot of changes that should happen. All I got instead was a bunch of sensitive, insecure, and toxic responses. As I progressed, I slowed down cuz I didn't want to deal with it as much as I did back in my day. But when Phoenyx came into play, he fueled my fire more again. He made me remember why I'm still here in the game today and choose to continue playing until further notice. As bad as NPO was power hungry w/ it's allies,  at least they provided a check and balance to the community. For the first couple months, it got better, then it just tanked due to the popular majority seizing dictator like control, taking over the democratic like communication. Until this community is checked & balanced like it was when I around a year old, shall the Devilman continue his bidding here.

Yeah no. IQ was absolutely shit to deal with, particularly toward the end. Tensions, rivalries and grudges are part and parcel of the game; good for it, even. What IQ did was not.

I can safely say that while there are plenty of disagreements and tensions over this war, none of it has come near OOC territory or IQ toxicity. I much prefer dealing with HM/Swamp/Rose than doing so with NPO and BK.

[Phoenyx]

10 hours ago, Adrienne said:

Yeah, they really have been, you just don't like the answers. Per your first, Boyce was the leader of an alliance allied to TCW, where Sphinx was leading. It doesn't take much investigative work, which you claim to be doing, to realize how Boyce would have "come to that conclusion", given the logs that were provided. 

 

I saw the logs in Partisan's DoW OP. There is no mention from Sphinx of any imminent attack from HM/TCW/Swamp. Everything Sphinx said can be consistent with the idea that all Swamp wanted was a defensive Coalition. Now if -Sphinx-/TCW may wanted more than that, that's his affair, but I see no reason why you and your Sphere had to assume that because Boyce says that Swamp/HM were going to attack, it means they were actually going to attack. In any case, you could say you couldn't ask because of the possibility that they would pre empt you, fine, but we're now in the war and the 2 largest Alliances in Swamp have been adamant that they weren't going to do that. You should at least -consider- that they are being honest. The only other possibility is that smaller Alliances in Swamp were planning something and that I will concede is theoretically possible. But they would have had to run it by Tyrion and TFP before actually getting a plan into motion, so clearly even there, Boyce's idea that they were going to attack in December makes no sense. How could he have a tentative date when there wasn't even any plan yet?

Edited November 29, 2020 by Phoenyx

[Phoenyx]

10 hours ago, Adrienne said:

Per your second, people from both sides have literally been telling you over and again what that means and you ignore them because "Oh, I know Swamp leadership super well and they would never do that". Kudos to you for having faith in your leadership but don't pretend you're being ignored on that question.

 

I'm not talking about what people believe, I'm talking about hard evidence. Just because Ronnie says he believes that Swamp was going to attack doesn't make it so. Ronnie didn't even talk to Swamp himself, as he fully acknowledges.  Ronnie's source is far more ambiguous:

 

 

As I've pointed out in the past, "counter" is the first part of "counter attack". The idea that Ronnie got it wrong has additional evidence in the fact that right after Ronnie made his famous statement that's been turned into ad form, he said that he never heard of this idea to attack Quack again. To me, the logical conclusion is he never heard of it again because he'd mistaken the idea that there was going to be a first strike attack in the first place. 

 

Perhaps the most interesting piece is Ronnie's insistence that he wouldn't get involved if Rose didn't get involved. And low and behold, Rose got involved. My guess is that Swamp may have gone to Rose precisely because of Ronnie's statement. But again, that was all for a defensive plan, not an offensive one. 

Edited November 29, 2020 by Phoenyx

[Prefonteen]

12 minutes ago, Phoenyx said:

 

I saw the logs in Partisan's DoW OP. There is no mention from Sphinx of any imminent attack from HM/TCW/Swamp. Everything Sphinx said can be consistent with the idea that all Swamp wanted was a defensive Coalition. Now if -Sphinx-/TCW may wanted more than that, that's his affair, but I see no reason why you and your Sphere had to assume that because Boyce says that Swamp/HM were going to attack, it means they were actually going to attack. In any case, you could say you couldn't ask because of the possibility that they would pre empt you, fine, but we're now in the war and the 2 largest Alliances in Swamp have been adamant that they weren't going to do that. You should at least -consider- that they are being honest. The only other possibility is that smaller Alliances in Swamp were planning something and that I will concede is theoretically possible. But they would have had to run it by Tyrion and TFP before actually getting a plan into motion, so clearly even there, Boyce's idea that they were going to attack in December makes no sense. How could he have a tentative date when there wasn't even any plan yet?

 

6 minutes ago, Phoenyx said:

 

I'm not talking about what people believe, I'm talking about hard evidence. Just because Ronnie says he believes that Swamp was going to attack doesn't make it so. Ronnie didn't even talk to Swamp himself, as he fully acknowledges. I once again point you to Ronnie's -source-, who is far more ambiguous:

 

 

As I've pointed out in the past, "counter" is the first part of "counter attack". The idea that Ronnie got it wrong has additional evidence in the fact that right after Ronnie made his famous statement that's been turned into ad form, he said that he never heard of this idea to attack Quack again. To me, the logical conclusion is he never heard of it again because he'd mistaken the idea that there was going to be a first strike attack in the first place. 

 

Perhaps the most interesting piece is Ronnie's insistence that he wouldn't get involved if Rose didn't get involved. And low and behold, Rose got involved. My guess is that Swamp may have gone to Rose precisely because of Ronnie's statement. But again, that was all for a defensive plan, not an offensive one. 

 

The logs are a clear cut CB on TCW, and TCW was hit accordingly. I have already expanded several times on why HM was hit as well, both in public and in private, so I will refrain from doing so yet again. Both HM and Swamp are well aware why HM was hit, and why TCW was hit. Your failure to comprehend that is irrelevant.

Swamp was not hit by quack, rendering your argument moot. They decided to defend TCW, and it was later revealed that they, or at the very least elements within their leadership (which boils down to the same as swamp presents itself as a unified decision making organ) had both set up several overlapping pacts to mutually defend against quack in any hypothetical war (dating back at the very least, verifiably, a month before our hit), as well as approached HM to gauge for an offensive strike as per Ronny's logs.

Quack acted strictly on the intel it got. Intel which was later confirmed to not only be correct, but to be the tip of a proverbial iceberg.

[Phoenyx]

22 minutes ago, Prefonteen said:

The logs are a clear cut CB on TCW, and TCW was hit accordingly. I have already expanded several times on why HM was hit as well, both in public and in private, so I will refrain from doing so yet again. Both HM and Swamp are well aware why HM was hit, and why TCW was hit. Your failure to comprehend that is irrelevant.

 

From your CB: "Recognizing the existential threat that HM poses to the $yndicate through its affiliations with Sphinx' coalition plans,  The $yndicate sees no option but to shit on ronnys lawn. En garde, old man."

 

However, this seems to assume that HM was actually going to hit you guys first, something which I have seen no evidence for. Did Ronnie entertain the idea? Looks like, though he insisted on Rose being a part of it. Then he said that this alleged plan from Swamp seemed to fizzle out and literally nothing after that. He then talks a lot about how you guys caught them by surprise, giving more evidence that there was no attack plan on HM's part when you guys attacked them. 

25 minutes ago, Prefonteen said:

Swamp was not hit by quack, rendering your argument moot.

 

It doesn't, because this is not about how Swamp got involved in the current Global War, but whether or not they were planning on hitting Quack first. 

27 minutes ago, Prefonteen said:

[Swamp] decided to defend TCW, and it was later revealed that they, or at the very least elements within their leadership (which boils down to the same as swamp presents itself as a unified decision making organ) had both set up several overlapping pacts to mutually defend against quack in any hypothetical war (dating back at the very least, verifiably, a month before our hit)...

 

Yes, I believe everyone agrees with this part. 

[Phoenyx]

27 minutes ago, Prefonteen said:

as well as approached HM to gauge for an offensive strike as per Ronny's logs.

 

This is what I, Tyrion and others disagree with. When Tyrion saw Ronnie's chat with his fellow HM leader, this is what he had to say:

 

Tyrion doesn't want to push the issue with Ronnie. Which may make sense, Ronnie doesn't seem to want to budge despite any pushing I've done. But the fact remains, to me this is a serious rift. Tyrion kept his promise to counter attack Quack should Quack attack HM. I think the least HM could do is investigate what this HM leader meant and perhaps more importantly, who his source was. 

[Prefonteen]

25 minutes ago, Phoenyx said:

 

This is what I, Tyrion and others disagree with. When Tyrion saw Ronnie's chat with his fellow HM leader, this is what he had to say:

 

Tyrion doesn't want to push the issue with Ronnie. Which may make sense, Ronnie doesn't seem to want to budge despite any pushing I've done. But the fact remains, to me this is a serious rift. Tyrion kept his promise to counter attack Quack should Quack attack HM. I think the least HM could do is investigate what this HM leader meant and perhaps more importantly, who his source was. 

Once again, you are believing tyrion at face value over others. I don't get why you keep bringing forward quotes from a a dm between yourself and tyrion trying to interpret the word counter vs curb as evidence of well, anything.

 

Edit:

And, as mentioned a few times already: Politics is often conducted in ambiguities. It allows one to gauge interest with plausible deniability in case of leaks. No one experienced (unless there is a long preexisting relationship+trust) straight up approaches another party out of the blue with a "Hey lets hit xyz together!". That's micro politics.

Ergo, by all precedents ronny's quote/assessment is plenty confirmation of the intentions of either swamp as a whole, or significant elements within swamp. In either case it fully vindicates quack's position.

Edited November 29, 2020 by Prefonteen

[Phoenyx]

Just now, Prefonteen said:

Once again, you are believing tyrion at face value over others. I don't get why you keep bringing forward quotes from a a dm between yourself and tyrion trying to interpret the word counter vs curb as evidence of well, anything.

 

To be honest, we had actually agreed to -not- make this public, precisely because the statement is ambiguous. But I finally decided to bring it to light because of the -other- part there. You see, that wasn't the end of our conversation, not by a long shot. Here is the continuation:

 

[Prefonteen]

1 minute ago, Phoenyx said:

 

To be honest, we had actually agreed to -not- make this public, precisely because the statement is ambiguous. But I finally decided to bring it to light because of the -other- part there. You see, that wasn't the end of our conversation, not by a long shot. Here is the continuation:

 

What does this prove, besides you asking tyrion to make a public statement, and tyrion considering his political position in what he does and does not want to state publically?

[Phoenyx]

3 minutes ago, Prefonteen said:

What does this prove, besides you asking tyrion to make a public statement, and tyrion considering his political position in what he does and does not want to state publically?

 

It makes it clear that there is a rift between what Tyrion and Kaz (TFP) are saying and what Ronnie said. Tyrion clearly believes that HM et al know the truth, but I'm not nearly so sure. Which is why investigating Ronnie's source is so important. Further, there's more...

 

 

And more...

 

And more...

 

Edited November 29, 2020 by Phoenyx

[HeroofTime55]

"They took puzzle pieces from multiple puzzles and put them together..."
In other words, there was more than one plot to roll Quack.  I kinda got that feeling from what has already been put out there, nice to have it confirmed.  Don't understand how this changes our justification in any way, though.

Edited November 29, 2020 by HeroofTime55

[Phoenyx]

4 hours ago, HeroofTime55 said:

"They took puzzle pieces from multiple puzzles and put them together..."
In other words, there was more than one plot to roll Quack. 

 

*eyeroll*. I guess it's impossible to get some people to see the truth.

[Shiho Nishizumi]

You're neither the truth bearer, nor are you seemingly aware of the irony of such statement.

Edited November 29, 2020 by Shiho Nishizumi

[KiWilliam]

18 hours ago, Firwof Kromwell said:

Ever since the a couple months after the fall of NPO, that's all the forms have become. Even with the media of Orbis, it's the same output being spewed here by that mob rule. I remember when I first constantly active on the forums. I was young and innocent in game, barely anyone knew me, but I saw a lot of changes that should happen. All I got instead was a bunch of sensitive, insecure, and toxic responses. As I progressed, I slowed down cuz I didn't want to deal with it as much as I did back in my day. But when Phoenyx came into play, he fueled my fire more again. He made me remember why I'm still here in the game today and choose to continue playing until further notice. As bad as NPO was power hungry w/ it's allies,  at least they provided a check and balance to the community. For the first couple months, it got better, then it just tanked due to the popular majority seizing dictator like control, taking over the democratic like communication. Until this community is checked & balanced like it was when I around a year old, shall the Devilman continue his bidding here.

I didn't reply before since that again really goes against what I thought was perfectly clear was my message in the other post; but it goes to show the steadfast spirit of human ingenuity and stalwart ability for the mind to piece together and form patterns & webs of thoughts that create a narrative where they think they are right.

tl;dr It is fine (air quotes and an asterisks on that one) that you have your own take; but I do not agree. To be blunt my post was about people interacting (reacting with up or down reactions, quoting, replying, or in any other shape or form engaging with) with that dude because after the first few honest exchanges, is it clear to myself that he is not either conducting himself properly or knows what that means (I can't decide what % of it is for show or a troll and what % is real). By engaging with someone who you feel is only a negative aspect on the forums, you are only furthering the decline of the quality of discussions that can be had here.

really too long; didn't understand

Don't reply or react to posts of people who will not take a hint or adjust themselves to the community's standard practices at large. Anyone doing so is actively contributing to the decline in forum quality that they most likely are also complaining about

really too long how dare you write more than a sentence; I don't get it buddy could you just post a meme?

Stop interacting with bad posters.

[Phoenyx]

1 hour ago, Shiho Nishizumi said:

You're neither the truth bearer, nor are you seemingly aware of the irony of such statement.

 

I don't always know what the truth is, but I am a strong seeker of it. 

[Sir Scarfalot]

2 hours ago, Phoenyx said:

 

I don't always know what the truth is, but I am a strong seeker of it. 

"Master Tyrion guide us. Master Tyrion teach us. Master Tyrion protect us. In your light we thrive. In your mercy we are sheltered. In your wisdom we are humbled. We live only to serve. Our lives are yours."

[Phoenyx]

5 minutes ago, Sir Scarfalot said:

"Master Tyrion guide us. Master Tyrion teach us. Master Tyrion protect us. In your light we thrive. In your mercy we are sheltered. In your wisdom we are humbled. We live only to serve. Our lives are yours."

 

Tyrion hasn't spoken to me since last Sunday. I have heard from a third party that it's because I've revealed a lot of what he's said. So no, I don't just do what Tyrion thinks is best. But I -do- believe that he has always been honest with me. His story and Kaz's story also fully corroborate each other. And while Ronnie's differs slightly, the bottom line is the same- there was no plan to attack you guys.