Noctis Anarch Caelum Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 3 hours ago, Yoda said: There are several issues with switching to forum voting at this point: Wasting the time of hundreds of players who have already voted. Not everyone wants to vote again Reducing Dynamic's work to nothing Ruining the radio show which people are looking forward to I think the best option is to let things run their course. Any changes should be made in 2020 Personally I find it pretty ironic that the NPO guys have more spheremates in our team than other alliances and yet they are complaining the loudest in this thread. It's almost as if you don't trust your allies to "watch" the system on your behalf New vote would be only way to include the missing nominations anyways, without those missing nominations having already missed out on all the ballots cast already. Also I just voted for some for some of the categories anyways when I noticed the missing nominations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Thrawn Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 2 hours ago, Sir Scarfalot said: Yes, that's why you can use a VPN or proxy to change the IP that's visible to Dynamic's web page and thus deny the potential for him to track your IP, like I said. And to vote multiple times. People shouldn't need a VPN to ensure their security in this sort of stuff. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Scarfalot Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 1 minute ago, Commander Thrawn said: And to vote multiple times. People shouldn't need a VPN to ensure their security in this sort of stuff. Yes, people can indeed vote multiple times if they've used a VPN to ensure their security to make cheat accounts in P&W. People shouldn't do that, but here we are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Thrawn Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 1 minute ago, Sir Scarfalot said: Yes, people can indeed vote multiple times if they've used a VPN to ensure their security to make cheat accounts in P&W. People shouldn't do that, but here we are. So why expose the process to extra security risks? Also there's no disclaimer in the vote message that it isn't part of the game itself/is a link to an external site, which in and of itself is pretty sketchy. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Edward I Posted January 8, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted January 8, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, Kevanovia said: The idea to have a radio show to unveil the winners sounded like a fun idea for the community. Trying different ideas is what keeps a community alive. (RIP CN) As I understand it, your issue isn’t necessarily with this particular awards voting procedure, rather you are against the principle of it not being hosted in an official capacity where there is no oversight by an admin/moderation. However - Odds are, Alex doesn’t actually give a rip about the awards, he’s more concerned with making sure the community is healthy. It sounds like a member of the community who has already hosted the awards went to him and asked to do something different, and he (Alex) felt it was an alright idea. I don’t necessarily understand the backlash when he and others are putting in all of this work to try and make something special for the community. It would be one thing if it was some random person doing this, but it’s the same individual who has previously hosted the awards on behalf of PnW. What if @Alex included a link in-game to Dynamic’s off-site voting platform, would that help make it feel more legit? CN died because of crappy mechanics that weren't fixed, but your point still stands. I want these hosted on either the forums or in-game, and I would still object if next year it was the exact same thing except for Alex being the one to give out the link, but even that would be better than how it's being conducted now. As for the radio show, no one is objecting to it specifically. We just don't want the entire process to be contrived around announcing the winners on a radio show with a complete disregard for any other concerns, which is what's being done now. Independent of it being used as a justification for this whole poorly conceived process, I think a radio show about the awards is a great idea. 4 hours ago, Yoda said: There are several issues with switching to forum voting at this point: Wasting the time of hundreds of players who have already voted. Not everyone wants to vote again Reducing Dynamic's work to nothing Ruining the radio show which people are looking forward to I think the best option is to let things run their course. Any changes should be made in 2020 Personally I find it pretty ironic that the NPO guys have more spheremates in our team than other alliances and yet they are complaining the loudest in this thread. It's almost as if you don't trust your allies to "watch" the system on your behalf It's almost like it's not a political issue and we're complaining because we care about the community, not just our own alliance. 3 hours ago, Yoda said: Just talked to the team and I have something to propose: Dynamic could give the code to Alex and have him host it here on politicsandwar.com for the next Yearly Award. Would you guys be more comfortable with that? Yes. 3 hours ago, Sir Scarfalot said: Yes, that's why you can use a VPN or proxy to change the IP that's visible to Dynamic's web page and thus deny the potential for him to track your IP, like I said. The default option shouldn't be having to use a VPN to conceal your IP from a dubiously trustworthy third party, it should be hosting the awards on the politicsandwar.com domain. 3 hours ago, Kastor said: Then don’t participate. You’re asking us to change everything. The bar for you guys keeps moving. We started asking you two months ago, the day you posted your awards announcement. It's not our fault you didn't listen. And we only found out about Dynamic's site after the awards started. That's not us moving the bar, that's us reacting as new information comes to light. Quote First it was attacks on me, saying I couldn’t be counted on to do the votes right, even though I’ve hosted them before. You hosted the vote on the forums before, which meant no one had to "do the votes right". The forums did them for you. We told you to do them on the forums as they've been done in the past because we feel that is the way to do the votes right. Quote Then it was that it was a “community event” and this was hurting the community, which was debunked by showing that more people had voted than before. It's almost as if the way you conduct community events matters as much as the attendance. Quote Then it was that we would rig the vote, until it was shown that multiple people from different alliances were in charge and that none of that could/should take place. No. There were six posts on the first page of your announcement thread telling you to host the votes on the forums, all made less than 24 hours after you posted it. And these concerns weren't unreasonable given the reactions to last year's awards votes. Quote Now it’s that your IP MAY be given to a player, and you’re not okay with that. The common thread in our complaints has been transparency and using official PW spaces (like the official forums) rather than third party sites. This is no different. And, to repeat, we're not moving the bar if we complain about things as we find out about them. Quote When people ask why I ignore your complaints, and the complaints of the people in this thread, it’s not because I don’t think some things you mention are warranted, or that I’m on a power trip, it’s literally because you don’t actually care about the awards or anything like that. You just want to complain. People are excited for the awards, they want to tune into the radio show, they want the awards presented this way. We have done everything in our power to continue with our plans AND cater to your issues. But at the end of the day, the overlying issue is that you just want to have a problem. Perhaps the underlying issue is that you prioritize your plans over doing the awards in a reasonable way. Edited January 8, 2019 by Edward I 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Scarfalot Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 1 minute ago, Edward I said: The default option shouldn't be having to use a VPN to conceal your IP from a dubiously trustworthy third party, it should be hosting the awards on the politicsandwar.com domain. Dude... the default state of the internet is 'not private', that's just a fact. The vast majority of websites have terms of service that are voluntarily agreed to by virtue of using said site, and they don't always need to nor do specify that, since there are laws like the GDPR and whatnot that define reasonable behaviors that websites are simply expected to adhere to. When's the last time you saw a ToS when you googled something? 3 minutes ago, Commander Thrawn said: So why expose the process to extra security risks? Also there's no disclaimer in the vote message that it isn't part of the game itself/is a link to an external site, which in and of itself is pretty sketchy. What, do you want a little clickthrough dialog that tells you that the link you clicked is in fact a link and goes to the spot that it says it goes to? People like you are why chainsaws have warning labels emblazoned "keep operating components away from hands and genitals". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Thrawn Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 Just now, Sir Scarfalot said: Dude... the default state of the internet is 'not private', that's just a fact. The vast majority of websites have terms of service that are voluntarily agreed to by virtue of using said site, and they don't always need to nor do specify that, since there are laws like the GDPR and whatnot that define reasonable behaviors that websites are simply expected to adhere to. When's the last time you saw a ToS when you googled something? What, do you want a little clickthrough dialog that tells you that the link you clicked is in fact a link and goes to the spot that it says it goes to? People like you are why chainsaws have warning labels emblazoned "keep operating components away from hands and genitals". I have a feeling you don't know what the GDPR is if you think it helps your argument. Do we have validation that the results and personal information collected by the site are anonymized or encrypted? Why do you think those sites have little banner ads saying that the site uses or cookies or whatnot? Because they are required to. Yes. Absolutely. Especially for people who aren't super tech savvy and are under the false impression that this is being hosted and covered by the terms of service of the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowthrone Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 2 minutes ago, Sir Scarfalot said: Dude... the default state of the internet is 'not private', that's just a fact. The vast majority of websites have terms of service that are voluntarily agreed to by virtue of using said site, and they don't always need to nor do specify that, since there are laws like the GDPR and whatnot that define reasonable behaviors that websites are simply expected to adhere to. When's the last time you saw a ToS when you googled something? 8 minutes ago, Commander Thrawn said: The GDPR does in fact mandate the sites pointing out the ToS and the data collected the first time you use it Thats kind of the point of the GDPR xD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buorhann Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 I say give this a shot. See where it goes to. It's one of the few things that's making this interesting. I'll definitely be tuning into the show if I can, to listen in to who won. While people criticize about transparency and "awards don't matter", this is an attempt to fix some of the poorly done stuff from the past. If it goes bad, so what, just chalk it up to another year of badly done awards. If it goes mediocre, then at least we have a foundation to work off of to make it better. If it goes well (That is, if TGH and it's allies wins every award, including knocking TheNG from Worst Leader), then great - let's keep it going as is!~~~ Multiple years we've had spam votes on obvious bias choices. While you cannot remove bias votes completely, we can come up with ideas to limit it if we want to legitimize the awards. ----- Personally I'm all for this idea. I'd like to flesh out the committee over seeing it though, but since it's a group of volunteers - I can't gripe about it. Plus it's the first attempt at this so I'd like to see where they take it. While this is odd, I also appreciate the non-transparency of this to an extent. On one hand, people don't know who's winning. On the other hand, people also don't know who's spam voting what. At the end of 2019 (Or hell, even now), I'd like to see a elected committee to oversee the private voting process and cast in their own votes. Like how the Electoral College does for the US. While at the same time, we hold a public, fully transparent vote for the masses to contribute. Then we can see the differences of it between both the committee and the popular vote, and come to a general consensus. The biggest issue I have with myself recognizing these awards is the fact that the majority of those voting have no idea of "other" votes. There's little to no campaigning or reasoning to who should win what. There's a major difference between say... @Prefontaine and @Thanos arguing who should win what to me and Roqbot #4599 arguing it out. (As in, there are players who are much more knowledgeable about who contributes what compared to others) Other than that, at least the award threads are entertaining to read when the low tide washes out and reveals all the salt left. 2 3 Quote Warrior of Dio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfPCFQfOnLg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Scarfalot Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 2 minutes ago, Commander Thrawn said: I have a feeling you don't know what the GDPR is if you think it helps your argument. Do we have validation that the results and personal information collected by the site are anonymized or encrypted? Why do you think those sites have little banner ads saying that the site uses or cookies or whatnot? Because they are required to. 2 minutes ago, Shadowthrone said: The GDPR does in fact mandate the sites pointing out the ToS and the data collected the first time you use it Thats kind of the point of the GDPR xD. That's why I said "like" the GDPR; the point I'm trying to make here is that websites are expected to maintain certain standards. Telling people when and how their email addresses and IP are stored and used is one thing, but telling people that they've visited a website when they've visited a website is a tad over the top when it comes to nanny-state bullcrap. I would have to cry if there's any laws that mandate that sites notify you if they're not harvesting your data. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoda Posted January 8, 2019 Author Share Posted January 8, 2019 16 minutes ago, Commander Thrawn said: So why expose the process to extra security risks? Also there's no disclaimer in the vote message that it isn't part of the game itself/is a link to an external site, which in and of itself is pretty sketchy. While I support moving the site to politicsandwar.com domain for the next award, there is nothing sketchy about Dynamic's site. I use one of the best antimalware programs and it didn't detect anything bad on his site. If you run a scan on virustotal and other similar sites, it will show that the site is perfectly safe. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Thrawn Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 1 minute ago, Sir Scarfalot said: That's why I said "like" the GDPR; the point I'm trying to make here is that websites are expected to maintain certain standards. Telling people when and how their email addresses and IP are stored and used is one thing, but telling people that they've visited a website when they've visited a website is a tad over the top when it comes to nanny-state bullcrap. I would have to cry if there's any laws that mandate that sites notify you if they're not harvesting your data. Yes, they are legally required to. We have no guarantee that any of those regulations are being addressed since the site doesn't even disclose it isn't part of the game. Very problematic, especially with the admin of the game agreeing to it. 2 minutes ago, Yoda said: While I support moving the site to politicsandwar.com domain for the next award, there is nothing sketchy about Dynamic's site. I use one of the best antimalware programs and it didn't detect anything bad on his site. If you run a scan on virustotal and other similar sites, it will show that the site is perfectly safe. Malware isn't the only risk, no one brought that up. Its more a question of is the data secure? Are people's IPs being logged and tracked? Who knows? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoda Posted January 8, 2019 Author Share Posted January 8, 2019 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Commander Thrawn said: Yes, they are legally required to. We have no guarantee that any of those regulations are being addressed since the site doesn't even disclose it isn't part of the game. Very problematic, especially with the admin of the game agreeing to it. Malware isn't the only risk, no one brought that up. Its more a question of is the data secure? Are people's IPs being logged and tracked? Who knows? His site does not track IPs. It doesn't store any personally identifiable information. Edited January 8, 2019 by Yoda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Thrawn Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 Just now, Yoda said: His site does not track IPs How do you know? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keegoz Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 9 hours ago, Micchan said: This isn't positive from my point of view, it means that 2/3 of the votes are from players that don't know the game and the community enough to vote and will likely vote for their alliance/friends/the only name they know, so if before was 70% popularity contest and 30% sensate opinion, now it is 100% popularity contest that in some cases it's coincidentally also the sensate opinion It's also true that it's impossible to reach 100% sensate opinion but we can try to get close to that, and I still think a forum post with a motivation for every choice is the best way It is a popularity contest that holds little weight. I'd prefer it if the vote was in the same form as the nominations where you had to justify why you were voting for who you were voting for. People before often just voted for their own alliance, hence why we got the results we did last year. To the rest of you, you care far too much about this. It's a cheap/fun popularity contest, stop whining. Quote [11:52 PM] Prefontaine: But Keegoz is actually bad. [11:52 PM] Prefontaine: He's my favorite bad leader though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Scarfalot Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 Just now, Commander Thrawn said: How do you know? Well, does https://npowned.net/ track IPs? How do you know? Hmm? And how do you know that the attack data is being collected honestly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowthrone Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 3 minutes ago, Sir Scarfalot said: That's why I said "like" the GDPR; the point I'm trying to make here is that websites are expected to maintain certain standards. Telling people when and how their email addresses and IP are stored and used is one thing, but telling people that they've visited a website when they've visited a website is a tad over the top when it comes to nanny-state bullcrap. I would have to cry if there's any laws that mandate that sites notify you if they're not harvesting your data. Fair enough xD I'm not particularly concerned with my data as is, and I've always been open with regards to most stuff, since if folks want to find me, they are multiple ways of doing it regardless lol. The takeaway from it though, is why I don't know why to vote here I need to use a VPN to vote for a community thing, when in essence I've signed an agreement with Alex for my privacy rights and hosting it here, or having him host it, solves that problem as well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Thrawn Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 3 minutes ago, Sir Scarfalot said: Well, does https://npowned.net/ track IPs? How do you know? Hmm? And how do you know that the attack data is being collected honestly? There's terms of service for you to read to address that question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Scarfalot Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 1 minute ago, Commander Thrawn said: There's terms of service for you to read to address that question. And who's to say that terms of service can't be falsified? It's just a text variable, like anything else on any other site, so why should we trust that part of the site more highly than any other part of it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buorhann Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 25 minutes ago, Commander Thrawn said: Malware isn't the only risk, no one brought that up. Its more a question of is the data secure? Are people's IPs being logged and tracked? Who knows? You must be fun at parties. Chances are, the IP is tracked (Pretty much every website on the internet will have the IP connection tracked on their server hosting history), but goodluck going through that history to pinpoint who's exactly who on that track list. If you're that paranoid about having your IP tracked, I'd recommend unplugging from any digital device. 1 Quote Warrior of Dio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfPCFQfOnLg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Frawley Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 16 minutes ago, Sir Scarfalot said: Well, does https://npowned.net/ track IPs? How do you know? Hmm? And how do you know that the attack data is being collected honestly? The NPO collects IP addresses in accordance with it's Terms of Service that you agree to upon registering an account. If you are visiting the stats with no account, the webserver will log your IP, as all webservers do, but without any other information I can't identity which nation your represent or anything else personal. You don't have to trust our stats, the data is public, you can recreate it yourself if you want. 10 minutes ago, Buorhann said: You must be fun at parties. Chances are, the IP is tracked (Pretty much every website on the internet will have the IP connection tracked on their server hosting history), but goodluck going through that history to pinpoint who's exactly who on that track list. If you're that paranoid about having your IP tracked, I'd recommend unplugging from any digital device. That's the thing, we all got a unique url address in a message sent to our nations, all you have to do is match the two and you have identified the voter and their IP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Scarfalot Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Frawley said: The NPO collects IP addresses in accordance with it's Terms of Service that you agree to upon registering an account. If you are visiting the stats with no account, the webserver will log your IP, as all webservers do, but without any other information I can't identity which nation your represent or anything else personal. You don't have to trust our stats, the data is public, you can recreate it yourself if you want. I'm not saying I don't trust your stats; for what its worth I do trust your stats. There's no reason to believe you have any malicious intent on any level, and thus you should have the benefit of the doubt. What I'm pointing out is how stupid the complaints and the mistrust of someone else's offsite service is, considering the existence of your own offsite service. Trust shouldn't be assumed, sure, but nor should it be denied when there's no reason to assume malice, and this absolutely should work both ways. Edited January 8, 2019 by Sir Scarfalot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiho Nishizumi Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 2 minutes ago, Sir Scarfalot said: What I'm pointing out is how ridiculous these complaints are, considering the existence of your own offsite service. To be fair, there aren't any on-site services for stat tracking. Prior to Frawley's stats, they were made by other individuals and put up in Google Spreadsheet. So stats never had a platform in the forums themselves. Which is the opposite of yearly awards, which has it's own subforum (this one) for it. The infrastructure already exists. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Scarfalot Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 1 minute ago, Shiho Nishizumi said: To be fair, there aren't any on-site services for stat tracking. Prior to Frawley's stats, they were made by other individuals and put up in Google Spreadsheet. So stats never had a platform in the forums themselves. Which is the opposite of yearly awards, which has it's own subforum (this one) for it. The infrastructure already exists. Well, there's the API data and there is (or at least was, I don't remember how to actually get to it) a tracker for some things like munitions usage in the past week, so the infrastructure does in fact exist on-site for the stats already. The issue with them is the same as the issue with the forum: They can be improved, and members of the community have stepped up to put in the effort and actually do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiho Nishizumi Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Sir Scarfalot said: Well, there's the API data and there is (or at least was, I don't remember how to actually get to it) a tracker for some things like munitions usage in the past week, so the infrastructure does in fact exist on-site for the stats already. The issue with them is the same as the issue with the forum: They can be improved, and members of the community have stepped up to put in the effort and actually do so. No, the infrastructure didn't exist. The materials for which to build up stuff did exist, but the platforms themselves didn't. It'd be akin to arguing that a bunch of tar and cement (or its materials) on containers, and a cement mixer is the same as a paved road. It isn't. The only real, objective improvement was the mass DM which likely had the biggest impact on the turnout. The rest is a this for that trade, with some preferring the transparency while the others prefer the surprise. Edited January 8, 2019 by Shiho Nishizumi Cleanup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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