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Keelan Kyle

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2 hours ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

So you cant launch nukes when bill locked?  If that is the case, stopping Fraggle is as easy as a single naval attack every 5 days, and then letting your spies do the rest of the work.

There's so many ways of acquiring money despite blockade. Fraggle only needs $2,493,750 for a single turns' upkeep on a stockpile of, say, 570. That's 10 of Fraggle's nuclear power plants, out of 32, so Fraggle can launch 8*3=24 nukes without even touching baseball or credits. Given 6 credits per month, that's 8*9=72 nukes across 9 days, for $2.8 billion in damages according to Apeman's estimated damage per nuke. Fraggle can prepare a lot more nuclear power plants though; 20 nuclear plants per city, plus maybe credits and minus the upkeep on launched nukes (being precise here would require calculus and I just don't wanna) and Fraggle would be able to launch 8*30=240 nukes across a month of total war. And in that month, spies would take down at best 90 nukes if I'm not mistaken about the spy operations limits. In that circumstance, Fraggle would be doing somewhat less than $9.3 billion in damage if we account for the fact that Fraggle would have at that point pretty much burned Fraggle's theoretical enemy alliance to the ground.

$9.3 billion is more damage than the majority of alliances pulled off during the last global war. Just an interesting statistic there.

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She doesn't have any power plants, just farms, and those provide 500 dollars per.  If you are willing to spend real life money on credits to launch nukes, I am chalking that up as a huge win for her opponent.  Why would you send 3 attackers?  one will do the job, after the first round you dont need to send any, she has 0 ability to fight back.  Also remember, while you little nations don't think VDS are worth while, most of us large nations all have one, so you are also looking at 20-30 percent of all nukes blocked.  Thinking about it more, if she works around the blockade, then I would say screw it, and just have all my guys beige her as fast as possible, and just launch spy attacks there is a limit on how often she can declare after a war ends, and my alliance isn't that large.

As for burned to the ground?  Every Grumpy member with the exception of I believe 3, had completely rebuilt their infra within a day after nuke block war ended.   Would it be annoying? yes, would it be devastating? nah.

She would probably set us back maybe a week or two in terms of our growth schedules, and we would set her back a year and a half in terms of nukes.

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10 hours ago, Sir Scarfalot said:

Actually, there's a few things wrong here. NB was mostly 'whales' to a degree, sure, but the real problem was their nuke stockpiles. Each nuke increases one's score by 15 points, while doing exactly nothing to increase one's conventional warfare fighting capacity. This means that if you've got a nuke stockpile of 50, you're in range of opponents with potentially another two or three cities than you'd otherwise be facing. Their nukes were being spied, yes, but actually it's no longer possible to spy off freshly built nukes; nukes aren't vulnerable to spies until they've been around for over a day. It's almost always best to not stockpile and instead build on demand; so you're correct about that.

Yeah, I knew about the invulnerability to spy ops freshly built nukes, though I never actually built a NRF on this nation (I did once while I was playing as another nation in BK, but nukes back then were radically different). I wasn't completely sure. 

In another side-note, increasing your nukes eaten stat isn't that bad, lol. 

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3 hours ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

She doesn't have any power plants, just farms, and those provide 500 dollars per.  If you are willing to spend real life money on credits to launch nukes, I am chalking that up as a huge win for her opponent. 

https://politicsandwar.com/city/manager/n=Fraggle Rock

Screenshot_117.png.06b1f31bb5415989d07c3ed23a06585c.png

(and you can get credits without spending actual money for use during blockades.  I have a couple myself.)

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7 hours ago, Sweeeeet Ronny D said:

She doesn't have any power plants, just farms, and those provide 500 dollars per.  If you are willing to spend real life money on credits to launch nukes, I am chalking that up as a huge win for her opponent.  Why would you send 3 attackers?  one will do the job, after the first round you dont need to send any, she has 0 ability to fight back.  Also remember, while you little nations don't think VDS are worth while, most of us large nations all have one, so you are also looking at 20-30 percent of all nukes blocked.  Thinking about it more, if she works around the blockade, then I would say screw it, and just have all my guys beige her as fast as possible, and just launch spy attacks there is a limit on how often she can declare after a war ends, and my alliance isn't that large.

As for burned to the ground?  Every Grumpy member with the exception of I believe 3, had completely rebuilt their infra within a day after nuke block war ended.   Would it be annoying? yes, would it be devastating? nah.

She would probably set us back maybe a week or two in terms of our growth schedules, and we would set her back a year and a half in terms of nukes.

Fraggle does have nuclear power plants, a bunch of them in fact. And while I would absolutely agree that forcing an opponent to break out their credit card in a desperate bid to save themselves is absolutely a huge win for the one that didn't need to go to such lengths... Fraggle is easily able to afford credits off the in-game market. As for 3 attackers, why for that matter send one at all? Fraggle has almost infinite ability to fight back in terms of the ratio of damage caused versus damage sustained. Now, I was talking academically, without considering exactly which alliance Fraggle would be facing, but if you're going to volunteer your alliance for the thought experiment then so be it. (Spoilered because my analysis is another wordy-ass scarfpost, just read the tl;dr)

Let's say you wanted to have Fraggle rolled because reasons. Okay, you've got your VDSes, you go mass turtle policy, and in order to limit incoming damage you have one of your dudes declare as a raid war, while filling Fraggle's espionage defenses with assassinations and nuclear sabotage. Blockade happens instantly, ground control follows, and at best 3 nukes are eradicated. Fraggle responds by going Attrition, declares attrition war on another 5 Grumpy, and waits for action points to fill. Just before a turnchange, Fraggle sells a bunch of nuclear power plants. Turnchange happens, Fraggle's nation is activated, Fraggle launches 6 nukes. 20% of those are statistically blocked, while the military policies cancel each other out, so Grumpy is hit with 4.8 statistical nukes. From 3000 infrastructure, which your nation is currently operating with, that's 48 million damage per nuke multiplied by 4.8, or $230,400,000 damage to you on the first day. Now, you plan on beiging Fraggle as fast as possible, so let's. The fastest way to beige someone, assuming all immense triumphs, is 3 ground battles and 5 naval battles for a total action point expenditure of 29 actions. Therefore, even if you were using the fortification policy, Fraggle can with 100% certainty activate and launch another nuclear volley before you have the option to beige. So, that's $460,800,000 damage, and you've managed to at best destroy 6 nukes worth a tiny fraction of that, and have forced Fraggle to sacrifice improvements worth about 10 million total.

But, that's just the first round. Fraggle cannot go to war against those same Grumpy members for 24 hours, but that was only 6 out of 22. Fraggle can declare war on any of the remaining 16 (that are in range) as soon as any of Fraggle's offensive slots are freed up. There's no reason for Fraggle to hold onto beige time, and each war takes a minimum of 2 days to complete, so even against your 'not that large' alliance, Fraggle can and would be able to launch nukes at perfect efficiency as long as Fraggle's nuclear plants and credit redemption limits hold out. Round 2, you'd be looking at a damage bill of $921,600,000, round 3 $1.38 billion, etc. etc. Now, yes, each and every one of you can easily afford a dozen rounds of this off your personal wealth, but then what? Would you be rebuilding infrastructure while under full nuclear assault, or would you allow your infrastructure to stay down in the peasant ranges until Fraggle finally runs out of steam after a good two months' worth of total war? That's what I mean by 'burned to the ground', by the way: that point at which you either rebuild or you let your economy and military suffer. Meanwhile, what have you actually accomplished by this expenditure? You've cut down Fraggle's nuclear stockpile by a fraction, you've had your cities irradiated and burned, and you've looted less than a login bonus. Sure, it'll take Fraggle several months to rebuild the expended nukes, but considering Sephiroth has said, and I quote, "[Grumpy] has about one war a year", that's not much of an argument. In the time it takes for your next war to happen, Fraggle would be back up to another huge stockpile of hurt, ready to do it all again.

More importantly, Fraggle would be fighting 1v22, and still the best victory you can hope for is to stoically get dunked on while comforting yourselves with the fact that you've got deep enough pockets to rebuild.


TL:DR: Even with the best moves Grumpy can make, Fraggle should still be able to do billions worth of damage while sustaining merely millions' worth in damage at best, and would force Grumpy to either rebuild infrastructure while at war or else accept a vastly lowered income for the duration of the conflict.

Much victory, very win.

 

Edited by Sir Scarfalot
fricked up spoiler tags somehow
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That just depends on how you measure victory, I would argue that because of the way Fraggle's nation is set up, Fraggle's worth is not measured in infra or money, its measured in the amount of nukes she has.  So if at the end of the day Fraggle is left with 0 nukes, and Grumpy still has the same amount of infra that it started with, did she win?  We would have set her nuke growth back about a year and half, since she can only buy a nuke a day.  Don't underestimate how much cash and resources we pump out, I eat a nuke that does 50 million in damage, assuming I get hit with 0 dollars in the bank, that infra can be completely replaced within 2 days. and the hit to our daily income is minimal since Grumpy members average 28 cities, so you would be doing what? 75% income damage to 1 out of 28 cities assuming we don't instantly rebuild the infra.

(i just looked at a few of her cities, none of them had nuke plants in them, so i just assumed as much, my bad!)

As for fighting technically we wouldn't beige as fast as possible we would beige before she could get off a 3rd nuke, because the longer we can draw things out the better it will be for us, so that we can launch more spy attacks on her nukes.   In terms of expenditures, Sure we will be irradiated, but its not like we need to hold more military than we already do, realistically we only need to have 1 ship and a small ground force to beat her, we could honestly plummet our military holdings to boost our income even higher.   As for declaring war, unless its changed, which is possible, I believe you can only fight a guy once a week, or there is like an 81 turn wait or something that you have to go thru before you can declare again, but I don't think it really matters, because assuming she cycles thru members you are looking at eating 2 nukes every 12 days or so, or if she targets specific people to hit more often 2 nukes a week.  So even eating 2 nukes a week (aka 100 million in damage), my warchest is still growing.

As for rebuilding infra, of course you would, the only damage she can do is a single nuke to a single city, why wouldn't you just re-buy either back to 3k or like 2999.99 infra? Or at the very least 2k or 2.5k, what else are you worried about? my guys are daily active, so the chance that they aren't around for 4 days in a row to get beiged by fraggle is pretty low.

The biggest challenge I see is the battle of attrition, and does my membership want to put up with eating a nuke or two every week or two for however long it takes to wipe out all of Fraggle's nukes.  Back when I was in VE, I had her locked down in a blockade for like a month or so, because of some shenanigans.  I was prepared to go much longer, but a real war broke out and priorities...  So I personally don't really have an issue with dragging it out.  I also wouldn't have an issue after the war ended working with some little nations to restart a blockade for a few months afterwards.

This was a fun thought experiment, If this actually happened I would have to sit down and "run the numbers" to make adjustments to the strategy, but Fraggle if you are reading this, this is probably how I would plan to fight you in case you were wondering.

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16 hours ago, Sir Scarfalot said:

Fraggle does have nuclear power plants, a bunch of them in fact. And while I would absolutely agree that forcing an opponent to break out their credit card in a desperate bid to save themselves is absolutely a huge win for the one that didn't need to go to such lengths... Fraggle is easily able to afford credits off the in-game market. As for 3 attackers, why for that matter send one at all? Fraggle has almost infinite ability to fight back in terms of the ratio of damage caused versus damage sustained. Now, I was talking academically, without considering exactly which alliance Fraggle would be facing, but if you're going to volunteer your alliance for the thought experiment then so be it. (Spoilered because my analysis is another wordy-ass scarfpost, just read the tl;dr)
 

  Reveal hidden contents

Let's say you wanted to have Fraggle rolled because reasons. Okay, you've got your VDSes, you go mass turtle policy, and in order to limit incoming damage you have one of your dudes declare as a raid war, while filling Fraggle's espionage defenses with assassinations and nuclear sabotage. Blockade happens instantly, ground control follows, and at best 3 nukes are eradicated. Fraggle responds by going Attrition, declares attrition war on another 5 Grumpy, and waits for action points to fill. Just before a turnchange, Fraggle sells a bunch of nuclear power plants. Turnchange happens, Fraggle's nation is activated, Fraggle launches 6 nukes. 20% of those are statistically blocked, while the military policies cancel each other out, so Grumpy is hit with 4.8 statistical nukes. From 3000 infrastructure, which your nation is currently operating with, that's 48 million damage per nuke multiplied by 4.8, or $230,400,000 damage to you on the first day. Now, you plan on beiging Fraggle as fast as possible, so let's. The fastest way to beige someone, assuming all immense triumphs, is 3 ground battles and 5 naval battles for a total action point expenditure of 29 actions. Therefore, even if you were using the fortification policy, Fraggle can with 100% certainty activate and launch another nuclear volley before you have the option to beige. So, that's $460,800,000 damage, and you've managed to at best destroy 6 nukes worth a tiny fraction of that, and have forced Fraggle to sacrifice improvements worth about 10 million total.

But, that's just the first round. Fraggle cannot go to war against those same Grumpy members for 24 hours, but that was only 6 out of 22. Fraggle can declare war on any of the remaining 16 (that are in range) as soon as any of Fraggle's offensive slots are freed up. There's no reason for Fraggle to hold onto beige time, and each war takes a minimum of 2 days to complete, so even against your 'not that large' alliance, Fraggle can and would be able to launch nukes at perfect efficiency as long as Fraggle's nuclear plants and credit redemption limits hold out. Round 2, you'd be looking at a damage bill of $921,600,000, round 3 $1.38 billion, etc. etc. Now, yes, each and every one of you can easily afford a dozen rounds of this off your personal wealth, but then what? Would you be rebuilding infrastructure while under full nuclear assault, or would you allow your infrastructure to stay down in the peasant ranges until Fraggle finally runs out of steam after a good two months' worth of total war? That's what I mean by 'burned to the ground', by the way: that point at which you either rebuild or you let your economy and military suffer. Meanwhile, what have you actually accomplished by this expenditure? You've cut down Fraggle's nuclear stockpile by a fraction, you've had your cities irradiated and burned, and you've looted less than a login bonus. Sure, it'll take Fraggle several months to rebuild the expended nukes, but considering Sephiroth has said, and I quote, "[Grumpy] has about one war a year", that's not much of an argument. In the time it takes for your next war to happen, Fraggle would be back up to another huge stockpile of hurt, ready to do it all again.

More importantly, Fraggle would be fighting 1v22, and still the best victory you can hope for is to stoically get dunked on while comforting yourselves with the fact that you've got deep enough pockets to rebuild.


TL:DR: Even with the best moves Grumpy can make, Fraggle should still be able to do billions worth of damage while sustaining merely millions' worth in damage at best, and would force Grumpy to either rebuild infrastructure while at war or else accept a vastly lowered income for the duration of the conflict.

Much victory, very win.

 

 

Yeaaaaaah, Ronny's got you on the above. Victory is determined by the removal and damage of what is valued by your enemy. Most people, value their infrastructure. A person with no infrastructure, who basically amounts to a homelessman babbling about the aliens and an insane world where sock puppets rule, does not value the same things as your corporate CEO, Ronny. 

The only thing Fraggle values is nukes, the only thing to bother comparing her losses to yours, is how many she's lost. Especially in the case of Grumpy, where, as said, gaining what is essentially a total victory over Fraggle, by the elimination of all nukes, would mostly be a minor annoyance. 

Or to state more bluntly, in the given scenario, Grumpy takes what amounts to minor-moderate damage, and end the war with the same level, or close to the same level they started as. Fraggle ends as a 14 city nation with no improvements, no infrastructure, no military, and most importantly, no nukes; the only thing she has. They lose some, but can easily recover, she loses all, and cannot easily recover. But hey, maybe this is just my pragmatism speaking.

Also, Ronny, war has changed. It's one day now before you can declare on the same person.

Edited by Lairah
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It does indeed depend on how one measures 'victory'; but what victory exactly is there in finishing behind where you started? Grumpy can afford the nuclear storm, but at an opportunity cost of anywhere from $9.3 billion to $25 billion across one or two months. That's the cost of the war to them; whether or not they have the fat to cover it doesn't matter, since the money could have otherwise been spent on some kind of accomplishment. That's what 'opportunity cost' means, by the way. Just because one can afford the money spent doesn't mean it isn't... y'know, spent. What does Grumpy gain? What did they accomplish, how does this make them known and respected? Nothing at all has changed for them. I for one do not respect money intrinsically; I respect money efficiently spent for a worthy purpose, and 'less than nothing' is the opposite of that.

Meanwhile, Fraggle does indeed finish the war behind where she started in terms of nuclear stockpiles... but instead of having active nukes, Fraggle instead has another ~350 nukes added to her 'nukes launched' stat, putting Fraggle onto the top of that leaderboard by a wide margin. Fraggle would also have accomplished more damage individually than any other alliance, including the largest alliances with over 100 players each, has accomplished in the last world war. By a factor of two. And no amount of spies can spy off nukes launched. Thus, Fraggle has ended as a 14 city nation, with no infrastructure, no military, no improvements, and clearly no need for them; while having earned fame and respect for her extraordinary achievements. And what's the value of that? Ask any 'corporate CEO' what the value of brand recognition and public respect is. The fact is, at the end of the day, Fraggle will have spent her nukes well, and Grumpy would have spent their infrastructure poorly. There is no simpler war.

And as for recovery, Fraggle can simply continue as Fraggle always has; what makes you think Fraggle cannot continue to build another nuke every day after the war? Fraggle still has land, and plenty of money safely secured. Don't underestimate Fraggle's buying power; where do you think the Chaos fund comes from?

Edited by Sir Scarfalot
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From The Desk of Wembly Fraggle, Most Handsome Fraggle

The Nation of Fraggle Rock

 

c09f8-wembleystanding.jpg?w=162&h=238

 

Greetings to the best nations of Orbis!! And a hearty hat tip to the rest. We've been busy doing our thing and haven't been keeping up around here. So I'll drop the information here, instead of the two or three posts that were planned.

 

First......big news!! El Commander won the naming rights for nuclear weapons number 420. He paid us 42,420,420. I forgot what he wanted it named, but it was lame. Thanks for your support El.....you are always a fan of us.

 

Second bit of big news!! We have ditched our alliance "It's Always Sunny in Fraggle Rock". In it's place is Los Pollos Hermanos. I'm sure this will last until we get sick of it by mid July.

 

As for our nuclear weapons program. We have stated it before and will state it again, it is for peaceful purposes. We do not intend to attack anyone going forward. Full disclosure, we don't want these nuclear weapons for much longer. Our goal is to build up a bit more...and then get Sheepy to cap nukes at 10 per nation. This plan is not a threat against any nation....just the guy who built the game in where it makes zero sense to allow muppets to hold onto 23% of all nukes.

 

This post made us happy. People are finally understanding what we do. We seek no wars, but if you seek them, we will defend and hurt any attackers. It is a great thought experiment, but in reality, nobody really wants a war with us. Sure 22 vs 1 would be fun on paper, but the many great nations of Orbis would support us, both on and off paper. We'll here to mock, not to war. Please allow us to live in bliss and I can guarantee that I shall not launch a nuke. Of course we wont stop the empty threats that still work on people and they are willing to pay us. We only need 948 million in cash to finish our goal of 612 nukes. I believe all of Orbis can chip in a little. Or maybe not. I'll get it somehow. It's not easy to run a nation without an economy...but it's possible.

 

Lastly, you all are great. I wish you all get as much enjoyment as we do. We are just simple Fraggles with long term goals. Nothing more than that.

 

 

Many Hugs,

Wembly Fraggle

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9 minutes ago, Fraggle said:

Second bit of big news!! We have ditched our alliance "It's Always Sunny in Fraggle Rock". In it's place is Los Pollos Hermanos. I'm sure this will last until we get sick of it by mid July.

Did you get through this entire theme without ever actually mentioning Pepper Jack?

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3 minutes ago, Spaceman Thrax said:

Did you get through this entire theme without ever actually mentioning Pepper Jack?

Pepper Jack was and still is a special role in the discord. I'm too lazy to change those roles. I'd have you do it.....but we all would be WARRIOR again

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That nuke is gonna be called the Dalai Lama. I have spoken. I now go back to my lair, see you next year. 

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7 hours ago, Fraggle said:

and then get Sheepy to cap nukes at 10 per nation

Why not, say, one per city? Just so it's still a softcap?

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21 hours ago, Fraggle said:

I'd have you do it.....but we all would be WARRIOR again

warriors-come-out-and-play-gif-8.gif

Edited by Buorhann

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