State of Orbis

[Peacity Peace]

No need to form anything.

That's the whole reasoning behind being non-treatied/non-binding.

 

"Yeah, we're just 3 seperate people working for a common goal, we're like, different because, you know, WE'RE PAPERLESS MAN" 

Edited September 15, 2016 by Peacity Peace

[Roy Mustang]

It would move to one side or the other.

 

 

 

You are challenging my memory.  I was not in gov then and just fought and killed.  In the Proxy war and Octoberfest I though TEST was our ally?

 

Can't speak to Proxy (mostly because of beer - I'll try to circle back to this post in the morning), but TEst wasn't really given a choice in Oktoberfest - TC attacked TEst, SK, and t$ simultaneously. While I suppose they could have been pigheaded and gone it alone, why not coordinate with the people who are getting attacked at the same time as you, especially when you like them.

[Placentica]

The only reason the crap alliances are all on one side is because they literally choose to be there. Repeated attempts at normalising relations have been made with treaties discussed but instead they decide to constantly remain together and attack the competent side over and over again.

This isn't factually accurate in any way.  TKR let NPO get rolled instead of honoring an MDP.  CS moved away from UPN.  Sparta moved to your side (before the merge).  BK cancelled UPN.  tS cancelled Alpha to create the next gobal war.  That's just off the top of my head.  I'm sure there are more. 

 

The problem is like CS/Sparta, etc, they dropped treaties to pick the winning side.  Sparta dropped it's allies verbatim because they "wanted to be on the winning side".  I'm picking them out because I have the log.  I would wager to guess that alliances like CS and many others did the exact same thing. 

 

The only reason this war even happened vs. a total curbstomp vs. our sphere and then Rose sphere is because you were so open about wanting to roll Rose or SK.  They realized that was exactly what your side was planning to do and reacted.  Re-acted....

[Roquentin]

Well sure but the flipside is that an ODP complicates our ability to defend our current allies as well. Like, there's gotta be *something* to start from, aye? Would you be arguing the same thing if Mensa or tS had been talking MDPs instead and things fell through? In the case of UPN, we had an ODP literally agreed to by the then-gov that the membership later torpedoed. Had that been an MDP that we had cut some ties to get, we would have ended up in a really shit situation (it was an ODP, so that wasn't on the table at all, but you understand my point I hope)

 

If you want to blame our reluctance to go out on a limb on anything, blame it on situations like that. 

 

Actually, for their grouping it's far more disadvantageous as they rely only a few major alliances while yours has a lot more individual ones so the treaty chess is a lot easier for you. You could hit Rose,VE, DEIC without retaliation from them. Your other allies would likely defend each other regardless of your ODP with UPN because you practice total coalition warfare, which it took Paracovenant a long time to adopt. I would say it was even only fully adopted this time around by the ad hoc zombie Paracov.  Now imagine if both VE and UPN had agreed.

 

You knew it was a democratic alliance, so it's never a truly done deal until votes are finished and it's posted.  If it was MDPs with the promise of cancelling things after they go up, it'd be different. The issue though, is still fundamentally, there is no compelling reason most of the time for you to cancel treaties unless there's friction with your current allies and if there was, it wouldn't be reliant on having another treaty signed.

[LordRahl2]

Can't speak to Proxy (mostly because of beer - I'll try to circle back to this post in the morning), but TEst wasn't really given a choice in Oktoberfest - TC attacked TEst, SK, and t$ simultaneously. While I suppose they could have been pigheaded and gone it alone, why not coordinate with the people who are getting attacked at the same time as you, especially when you like them.

 

I buy that.  Again, I am trying to learn about history ancient and stuff.

 

I thought TC did so because TEST was in the opposing sphere.  No?

[Roy Mustang]

Actually, for their grouping it's far more disadvantageous as they rely only a few major alliances while yours has a lot more individual ones so the treaty chess is a lot easier for you. You could hit Rose,VE, DEIC without retaliation from them. Your other allies would likely defend each other regardless of your ODP with UPN because you practice total coalition warfare, which it took Paracovenant a long time to adopt. I would say it was even only fully adopted this time around by the ad hoc zombie Paracov.  Now imagine if both VE and UPN had agreed.

 

You knew it was a democratic alliance, so it's never a truly done deal until votes are finished and it's posted.  If it was MDPs with the promise of cancelling things after they go up, it'd be different. The issue though, is still fundamentally, there is no compelling reason most of the time for you to cancel treaties unless there's friction with your current allies and if there was, it wouldn't be reliant on having another treaty signed.

 

A good number of those ties are recent, however, and did not come into existence until after the ODP in question fell through. At the time, t$ was much more central to our coalition than any Paracovenant alliance was to your coalition. The "Syndisphere" moniker wasn't coined for no reason. 

 

Also UPN is a republic, not a direct democracy (even after their recent Charter change) - while the government is elected, treaties are not subject to a popular vote (someone from UPN, correct me if I'm wrong! but that was definitely my impression at the time). They (imo correctly) backed down to membership will, but it's also on them to know the mood and opinions of their membership - not on me. We took what their gov said at face value, i.e. trust, and it sorta blew up in our face. Luckily there was nothing major riding on it, but had it been something more substantial, it would have been a problem.

 

While I will grant you that we were quicker to embrace total coalition warfare, I don't see how that's our problem to fix at all. What, do you want us to fight with one arm tied behind our backs? 

Edited September 15, 2016 by Carmen Sandiego

[Doktor Avalanche]

"Yeah, we're just 3 seperate people working for a common goal, we're like, different because, you know, WE'RE PAPERLESS MAN" 

It is a concept of play, not a social status. How many Alliances have been dragged into "someone else's" stupidity just because of a treaty?

[Roquentin]

A good number of those ties are recent, however, and did not come into existence until after the ODP in question fell through. At the time, t$ was much more central to our coalition than any Paracovenant alliance was to your coalition. The "Syndisphere" moniker wasn't coined for no reason. 

 

Also UPN is a republic, not a direct democracy (even after their recent Charter change) - while the government is elected, treaties are not subject to a popular vote (someone from UPN, correct me if I'm wrong! but that was definitely my impression at the time). They (imo correctly) backed down to membership will, but it's also on them to know the mood and opinions of their membership - not on me. We took what their gov said at face value, i.e. trust, and it sorta blew up in our face. Luckily there was nothing major riding on it, but had it been something more substantial, it would have been a problem.

 

While I will grant you that we were quicker to embrace total coalition warfare, I don't see how that's our problem to fix at all. What, do you want us to fight with one arm tied behind our backs? 

 

Which ties? TKR-Guardian existed, Mensa-Guardian existed, etc and you don't need the treaties to send people to fronts. There are only a few newer ones that are really pivotal. There was enough anyway. Anyway, the point is, your side is willing to hit whoever is necessary and has more alliances so things like ODPs are easy to maneuver around.

 

I used democratic in a colloquial sense, but I know. The thing is, in a republic, the will of the membership will influence FA a lot more than in a different set up and while it's up to them to know the mood, it's never a done deal until they finish whatever procedures they have and give you the sigs.

 

You guys keep bringing that up, but no, it's just you'll have to accept that once the opposition is destroyed, it'll send things into an endgame stage. You guys always talked about dynamism and making things interesting, but there'll be no way to even pay lip service to that. If you guys just want to embrace "we're the dominant grouping and we're going to stay that way", then all that talk about how the politics are lively and dynamic will go out the window. It'll just be the Syndisphere Show and everyone else will be at its mercy. I won't use the H word since it's loaded, but yeah.

[Peacity Peace]

It is a concept of play, not a social status. How many Alliances have been dragged into "someone else's" stupidity just because of a treaty?

 

Hm, treaties sound like insurance.

 

 

If you know you're gonna mess up, it's beneficial, if you're not, it's pointless.

[Charles Bolivar]

This isn't factually accurate in any way.  TKR let NPO get rolled instead of honoring an MDP.  CS moved away from UPN.  Sparta moved to your side (before the merge).  BK cancelled UPN.  tS cancelled Alpha to create the next gobal war.  That's just off the top of my head.  I'm sure there are more. 

 

The problem is like CS/Sparta, etc, they dropped treaties to pick the winning side.  Sparta dropped it's allies verbatim because they "wanted to be on the winning side".  I'm picking them out because I have the log.  I would wager to guess that alliances like CS and many others did the exact same thing. 

 

The only reason this war even happened vs. a total curbstomp vs. our sphere and then Rose sphere is because you were so open about wanting to roll Rose or SK.  They realized that was exactly what your side was planning to do and reacted.  Re-acted....

 

 

Can't blame a horse for seeking out greener grass can you? If you want your allies to remain allied then stop placing them in harm's way by constantly starting losing wars. What possible incentive does any alliance have to be allied to your sphere when all you do is cause events which lead to them getting rolled? Your sphere is simply a terrible investment of time and effort.

 

And kidding me right, we were planning to roll Rose and SK? I think most of our entire sphere wasn't even mobilised and only started mobilising after VE I think it was started buying troops. I think very few people within our sphere even have a clue as to why we are currently fighting other than the defeated from the last war being salty and attempting a sneak attack on us for revenge.

 

We have the leadership of SK openly admitting on this very forum that Rose planned this war from the start, We even have your very own diplomats in the alpha embassy on tS' boards openly stating that Rose planned this war but didn't bother to tell anyone else about it until a few days before. We have a dept official from Rose itself stating that their very own gov gave conflicting messages over a series of days with the truth being revealed on the day this war started that this was an offensive war Rose had been planning from day 1.

 

Quit smoking whatever it is you are smoking and come back to reality chap.

What, do you want us to fight with one arm tied behind our backs? 

 

I swear we just did fight with one hand behind our backs. Guess what? Still won

Edited September 15, 2016 by Night King

[Prefonteen]

That would group TEST/MENSA/?,? together?

 

Nah. Mensa would have drifted to Covenant at the time.

[Prefonteen]

This isn't factually accurate in any way.  TKR let NPO get rolled instead of honoring an MDP.  CS moved away from UPN.  Sparta moved to your side (before the merge).  BK cancelled UPN.  tS cancelled Alpha to create the next gobal war.  That's just off the top of my head.  I'm sure there are more. 

 

The problem is like CS/Sparta, etc, they dropped treaties to pick the winning side.  Sparta dropped it's allies verbatim because they "wanted to be on the winning side".  I'm picking them out because I have the log.  I would wager to guess that alliances like CS and many others did the exact same thing. 

 

The only reason this war even happened vs. a total curbstomp vs. our sphere and then Rose sphere is because you were so open about wanting to roll Rose or SK.  They realized that was exactly what your side was planning to do and reacted.  Re-acted....

 

tS cancelled Alpha because Alpha broke our trust.

 

C'moooooon

[Prefonteen]

Actually, for their grouping it's far more disadvantageous as they rely only a few major alliances while yours has a lot more individual ones so the treaty chess is a lot easier for you. You could hit Rose,VE, DEIC without retaliation from them. Your other allies would likely defend each other regardless of your ODP with UPN because you practice total coalition warfare, which it took Paracovenant a long time to adopt. I would say it was even only fully adopted this time around by the ad hoc zombie Paracov.  Now imagine if both VE and UPN had agreed.

 

You knew it was a democratic alliance, so it's never a truly done deal until votes are finished and it's posted.  If it was MDPs with the promise of cancelling things after they go up, it'd be different. The issue though, is still fundamentally, there is no compelling reason most of the time for you to cancel treaties unless there's friction with your current allies and if there was, it wouldn't be reliant on having another treaty signed.

 

Actually:

 

From UPN's charter-

 

The Senate

The Senate consists of 5 Senators in addition to the Consul.

The Senators are the Legislative body of UPN.

Senators are elected from the membership to rule over the alliance and hold the power to approve or reject motions put forth to the Senate.

No treaties, magistrate nominations, declarations of war not obligated from existing treaties, charter amendments, or changes in policy may be enacted without approval from the Senate.

 

 

As I understand, the treaty had passed the senate and was therefore ready to be ratified. It got torpedoed when Hansarius leaked it to the members in a riling post which depicted tS as "UPN's gravest enemies". 

 

Bits and pieces of informtion can be powerful in the right context. Members got riled up and a cluster!@#$ occurred. This forced UPN government back to the table. That is why ultimately the ODP got dropped.

 

 

@UPN and/or ex-UPN: Correct me if i'm wrong

[Saru]

We actually are having a conversation about this in the syndicate private channel right now and I think we have reached a truly groundbreaking conclusion. We mutually agreed that this process really begun when VE attempted to sell us out to UPN last year. As a result, all the competent alliances we know today really banded together around this time and formed the treaties which still exist today. What is so groundbreaking about this I hear you ask? This is all old news after all.

 

Why did VE attempt to sell us out to UPN? Well, it can all be attributed to the actions of just one player.

 

Cynic.

 

When cynic leaked sensitive info to VE, he initiated the chain of events which have led to the current political landscape.

 

So if you want to blame a specific person, blame cynic.

 

Cynic actually spoke to me directly about the leaks, so the info did not come from VE.

 

Just to give some context: UPN had a good relationship with VE, and we assumed with tS -- due to us deciding to jump into the Guardian v VE war, when they were the dominant side without a treaty and an obligation to. After the war was over we were on the verge of signing a treaty with VE. At the time I was running UPN's FA and some real life stuff came up and I wasn't online for a few days, in which Impero made the decision to act and the group of tS/VE/Rose came about. Funnily enough it was Rose's inclusion that was the most surprising.

 

Anyway our relationship with VE was still good, even though we understood at some point down the line we will clash, as a natural consequence of us being in the two biggest blocs/spheres at the time. However VE gave assurances that they appreciated the help with Guardian, and that they will not attack us any time soon for the sake of attacking and gaining power. Whereas tS wanted exactly that, and saw it silly to hold off on what they saw as the inevitable when they had the advantage, which was true because I knew our only chance of winning that war was going to be if they break apart -- although I assumed it would be tS/VE and Rose splintering at first. Anyway tS wanting to go after UPN as soon as, and VE disagreeing and wanting to go after the likes of TEst instead is what drove the wedge between them I believe.

 

In the end tS left Paragon, and we had a legit CB to hit them, and they were vulnerable -- but we didn't. Shortly after we signed an MDP with Mensa and Mensa signed with tS at the same time, and then the Proxy War happened, and while we did not enter on their behalf in the war, we essentially made sure that Mensa were not countered in it and that's a big reason why they were able to do as well as they done. I had my suspicions that maybe some in the Mensa community and gov didn't appreciate this, and moreso appreciated the likes of tS/TKR/BK/Guardian rolling with them directly.

 

After the war UPN was a clear #1, allied to the key players of all spheres. This is in and around the time where Pre would complain on the radio that we were tied to around 80% of the top 15 or whatever the stat was. Anyway we had reasons to believe that Mensa saw themselves as part of the "Syndisphere group", and that Syndicate were going to target us in the future. I took a break from the game again, and UPN had decided to proactively go after Syndicate to prevent them from getting us in the future, and this is the mistake that defined the game I feel and made UPN lose its position of power. Stats wise UPN was seen as some sort of hegemoney, even though the stats didn't give an accurate presentation of everything -- but for that reason I feel like the likes of Alpha and Arrgh decided to get involved in the conflict. Also going head on against the Syndicate ment that we lost the Mensa treaty, which to me was really important -- because I knew that we needed them onside. (Another problem is that the relationship was heavily based on just me and Pfeiffer, as opposed to the two alliances).

 

So yeah from my perspective at least I feel like not hitting tS when we hard clear evidence of them coming after us, then protecting Mensa from getting countered in the war, meaning they grew relatively stronger to many but not helping them directly meaning that they saw their other allies as closer to them, and then finally going into Syndicate head on, which further consolidated that sphere, and we lost the war in devastating fashion and were subject to big reparations, were the combined factors in the "Syndisphere" becoming dominant.

 

Well sure but the flipside is that an ODP complicates our ability to defend our current allies as well. Like, there's gotta be *something* to start from, aye? Would you be arguing the same thing if Mensa or tS had been talking MDPs instead and things fell through? In the case of UPN, we had an ODP literally agreed to by the then-gov that the membership later torpedoed. Had that been an MDP that we had cut some ties to get, we would have ended up in a really shit situation (it was an ODP, so that wasn't on the table at all, but you understand my point I hope)

 

If you want to blame our reluctance to go out on a limb on anything, blame it on situations like that. 

 

You thought you had the treaty agreed. A few of our government members who were pro-Syndicate decided to try and push the treaty under the table without consulting all of the government members. So there wasn't even an official vote for it. I can't recall the specifics of it, but I remember tS being in some sort of potential trouble in and around at this time -- and in my head it seemed that tS just appear during these times to try and get more support. Anyway my problem with it was that I felt some of the government were doing shady shit so I called them out in the government forums and Hans raised the issue with the membership, of which the majority agreed that they did not want the tS treaty.

 

The feeling was that we will judge you on your actions as opposed to your words, as trusting your words had been detrimental to us in the past. So when we put a stop to the treaty talks, but said we are open to further discussion and will judge you based on your actions, you literally attacked us in like a week lol. Which is obviously fair enough from a strategic point of view, but left a sour taste in our mouths.

 

And for the record the pro-tS guys who tried to push the treaty through without following the procedures and consulting all the gov ended up forming a splinter alliance after losing the elections and signed a protectorate with tS.

 

A good number of those ties are recent, however, and did not come into existence until after the ODP in question fell through. At the time, t$ was much more central to our coalition than any Paracovenant alliance was to your coalition. The "Syndisphere" moniker wasn't coined for no reason. 

 

Also UPN is a republic, not a direct democracy (even after their recent Charter change) - while the government is elected, treaties are not subject to a popular vote (someone from UPN, correct me if I'm wrong! but that was definitely my impression at the time). They (imo correctly) backed down to membership will, but it's also on them to know the mood and opinions of their membership - not on me. We took what their gov said at face value, i.e. trust, and it sorta blew up in our face. Luckily there was nothing major riding on it, but had it been something more substantial, it would have been a problem.

 

While I will grant you that we were quicker to embrace total coalition warfare, I don't see how that's our problem to fix at all. What, do you want us to fight with one arm tied behind our backs? 

 

The government do vote on their treaties, after a discussion. That was why the tS thing fell through, because some people tried to push it through without a discussion with all of the government and advisors, and without an official vote.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Saru

[Prefonteen]

I buy that.  Again, I am trying to learn about history ancient and stuff.

 

I thought TC did so because TEST was in the opposing sphere.  No?

 

Nah. TEst has never been in "Syndisphere". Our goals have however aligned on a few occasions. Our military interactions with TEst:

 

- TEst joined us in proxy war by hitting VE

- TEst got lumped in and hit alongside tS-SK by UPN-DEIC-BoC during oktoberfest

- TEst sat out 168 

- TEst coordinated with tS in striking Alpha. They did have their own motivations for this (ask prefontaine).

- TEst did not involve itself in the following global war (NPO's first time). They did offer themselves to whomever was willing to pay 1 billion. No one took the offer.

- TEst hit Pantheon, a tS ally in this war.

 

All in all, this means that TEst:

 

- Opted to fight for us as 'allies' in 2 out of 6 situations. One of which was a simple manner of 'mutual objective but different motivations'.

- Got attacked and thus forced to coordinate with us in 1 out of 6 situations. Not their choice.

- Sat out in 2 out of 6 situations

- Fought tS' extended sphere in  situation.

 

That's 2/1/2/2.

 

Haaaardly part of a sphere.

[greatkitteh]

A good number of those ties are recent, however, and did not come into existence until after the ODP in question fell through. At the time, t$ was much more central to our coalition than any Paracovenant alliance was to your coalition. The "Syndisphere" moniker wasn't coined for no reason. 

 

Also UPN is a republic, not a direct democracy (even after their recent Charter change) - while the government is elected, treaties are not subject to a popular vote (someone from UPN, correct me if I'm wrong! but that was definitely my impression at the time). They (imo correctly) backed down to membership will, but it's also on them to know the mood and opinions of their membership - not on me. We took what their gov said at face value, i.e. trust, and it sorta blew up in our face. Luckily there was nothing major riding on it, but had it been something more substantial, it would have been a problem.

 

While I will grant you that we were quicker to embrace total coalition warfare, I don't see how that's our problem to fix at all. What, do you want us to fight with one arm tied behind our backs? 

 

Well, UPN may as well be direct democracy since reelections complicate everything and after Oktoberfest we (i used to be there) !@#$ed about transperency.

[Saru]

 

As I understand, the treaty had passed the senate and was therefore ready to be ratified. It got torpedoed when Hansarius leaked it to the members in a riling post which depicted tS as "UPN's gravest enemies". 

 

Bits and pieces of informtion can be powerful in the right context. Members got riled up and a cluster!@#$ occurred. This forced UPN government back to the table. That is why ultimately the ODP got dropped.

 

 

@UPN and/or ex-UPN: Correct me if i'm wrong

 

 

There was no discussion with all of the government involved, and there was no official vote. Without mentioning the specific names and such, there were a couple of people who were really interested in pushing the tS treaty through -- and it seemed like they purposely tried to be covert. A topic went up in the government forums saying "the treaty will be announced on x", at which point I was like let's pump the breaks here, given that some of the government members had not voted, there was no discussion, and some of the government felt they were coerced into the decision because they were made to feel like the decision was made. I took it upon myself to talk to all the government, and it was understood that a mistake was made (as they were just privately spoken to, instead of in the public domain). Hans decided to take it to the membership, which were split -- but mostly against the tS treaty based on everything that had happened in the past.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Saru

[greatkitteh]

There was no discussion with all of the government involved, and there was no official vote. Without mentioning the specific names and such, there were a couple of people who were really interested in pushing the tS treaty through -- and it seemed like they purposely tried to be covert. A topic went up in the government forums saying "the treaty will be announced on x", at which point I was like let's pump the breaks here, given that some of the government members had not voted, there was no discussion, and some of the government felt they were coerced into the decision because they were made to feel like the decision was made. I took it upon myself to talk to all the government, and it was understood that a mistake was made. Hans decided to take it to the membership, which were split -- but mostly against the tS treaty based on everything that had happened in the past.

 

I was against it, and now am proud to. But srsly, after NPO's first time no one liked it

[LordRahl2]

Nah. Mensa would have drifted to Covenant at the time.

 

Hmmm, I dislike losing though.

[Phiney]

Nah. TEst has never been in "Syndisphere". Our goals have however aligned on a few occasions. Our military interactions with TEst:

 

- TEst joined us in proxy war by hitting VE

- TEst got lumped in and hit alongside tS-SK by UPN-DEIC-BoC during oktoberfest

- TEst sat out 168

- TEst coordinated with tS in striking Alpha. They did have their own motivations for this (ask prefontaine).

- TEst did not involve itself in the following global war (NPO's first time). They did offer themselves to whomever was willing to pay 1 billion. No one took the offer.

- TEst hit Pantheon, a tS ally in this war.

 

All in all, this means that TEst:

 

- Opted to fight for us as 'allies' in 2 out of 6 situations. One of which was a simple manner of 'mutual objective but different motivations'.

- Got attacked and thus forced to coordinate with us in 1 out of 6 situations. Not their choice.

- Sat out in 2 out of 6 situations

- Fought tS' extended sphere in situation.

 

That's 2/1/2/2.

 

Haaaardly part of a sphere.

My memory is terrible, but what about the first war or two were you were on side with ve and upn, did you fight in those?

[Prefonteen]

My memory is terrible, but what about the first war or two were you were on side with ve and upn, did you fight in those?

 

Hmmm yeah I remember that!

 

You were on the other side. Guardian-Mensa-SK struck. I think you were pissed off with being left in the dark or something? You probably know that better than I do.

 

I do recall when you came to us to negotiate peace. We negotiated that you'd hit SK (who you didn't like or something along those lines) and we'd let you off the hook.

 

We didn't have syndisphere at the time and it was more of a peace term than i was an entirely voluntary entry. But I guess we'll count it?

 

3/1/2/2

[Charles Bolivar]

Cynic actually spoke to me directly about the leaks, so the info did not come from VE.

 

Just to give some context: UPN had a good relationship with VE, and we assumed with tS -- due to us deciding to jump into the Guardian v VE war, when they were the dominant side without a treaty and an obligation to. After the war was over we were on the verge of signing a treaty with VE. At the time I was running UPN's FA and some real life stuff came up and I wasn't online for a few days, in which Impero made the decision to act and the group of tS/VE/Rose came about. Funnily enough it was Rose's inclusion that was the most surprising.

 

Anyway our relationship with VE was still good, even though we understood at some point down the line we will clash, as a natural consequence of us being in the two biggest blocs/spheres at the time. However VE gave assurances that they appreciated the help with Guardian, and that they will not attack us any time soon for the sake of attacking and gaining power. Whereas tS wanted exactly that, and saw it silly to hold off on what they saw as the inevitable when they had the advantage, which was true because I knew our only chance of winning that war was going to be if they break apart -- although I assumed it would be tS/VE and Rose splintering at first. Anyway tS wanting to go after UPN as soon as, and VE disagreeing and wanting to go after the likes of TEst instead is what drove the wedge between them I believe.

 

In the end tS left Paragon, and we had a legit CB to hit them, and they were vulnerable -- but we didn't. Shortly after we signed an MDP with Mensa and Mensa signed with tS at the same time, and then the Proxy War happened, and while we did not enter on their behalf in the war, we essentially made sure that Mensa were not countered in it and that's a big reason why they were able to do as well as they done. I had my suspicions that maybe some in the Mensa community and gov didn't appreciate this, and moreso appreciated the likes of tS/TKR/BK/Guardian rolling with them directly.

 

After the war UPN was a clear #1, allied to the key players of all spheres. This is in and around the time where Pre would complain on the radio that we were tied to around 80% of the top 15 or whatever the stat was. Anyway we had reasons to believe that Mensa saw themselves as part of the "Syndisphere group", and that Syndicate were going to target us in the future. I took a break from the game again, and UPN had decided to proactively go after Syndicate to prevent them from getting us in the future, and this is the mistake that defined the game I feel and made UPN lose its position of power. Stats wise UPN was seen as some sort of hegemoney, even though the stats didn't give an accurate presentation of everything -- but for that reason I feel like the likes of Alpha and Arrgh decided to get involved in the conflict. Also going head on against the Syndicate ment that we lost the Mensa treaty, which to me was really important -- because I knew that we needed them onside. (Another problem is that the relationship was heavily based on just me and Pfeiffer, as opposed to the two alliances).

 

So yeah from my perspective at least I feel like not hitting tS when we hard clear evidence of them coming after us, then protecting Mensa from getting countered in the war, meaning they grew relatively stronger to many but not helping them directly meaning that they saw their other allies as closer to them, and then finally going into Syndicate head on, which further consolidated that sphere, and we lost the war in devastating fashion and were subject to big reparations, were the combined factors in the "Syndisphere" becoming dominant.

 

 

You thought you had the treaty agreed. A few of our government members who were pro-Syndicate decided to try and push the treaty under the table without consulting all of the government members. So there wasn't even an official vote for it. I can't recall the specifics of it, but I remember tS being in some sort of potential trouble in and around at this time -- and in my head it seemed that tS just appear during these times to try and get more support. Anyway my problem with it was that I felt some of the government were doing shady shit so I called them out in the government forums and Hans raised the issue with the membership, of which the majority agreed that they did not want the tS treaty.

 

The feeling was that we will judge you on your actions as opposed to your words, as trusting your words had been detrimental to us in the past. So when we put a stop to the treaty talks, but said we are open to further discussion and will judge you based on your actions, you literally attacked us in like a week lol. Which is obviously fair enough from a strategic point of view, but left a sour taste in our mouths.

 

And for the record the pro-tS guys who tried to push the treaty through without following the procedures and consulting all the gov ended up forming a splinter alliance after losing the elections and signed a protectorate with tS.

 

 

The government do vote on their treaties, after a discussion. That was why the tS thing fell through, because some people tried to push it through without a discussion with all of the government and advisors, and without an official vote.

 

I really should have added a lol emote to my post about cynic....you do realise it was a post in jest correct? We don't actually think cynic caused all of this. This is cynic we are talking about!

Edited September 15, 2016 by Night King

[Phiney]

Hmmm yeah I remember that!

 

You were on the other side. Guardian-Mensa-SK struck. I think you were pissed off with being left in the dark or something? You probably know that better than I do.

 

I do recall when you came to us to negotiate peace. We negotiated that you'd hit SK (who you didn't like or something along those lines) and we'd let you off the hook.

 

We didn't have syndisphere at the time and it was more of a peace term than i was an entirely voluntary entry. But I guess we'll count it?

 

3/1/2/2

Yeah that was one where we worked with you In the end, but there was a big one before that where we were on the opposite side too. 2 years ago now so difficult to recall, pre knows more.

Hmmm yeah I remember that!

 

You were on the other side. Guardian-Mensa-SK struck. I think you were pissed off with being left in the dark or something? You probably know that better than I do.

 

I do recall when you came to us to negotiate peace. We negotiated that you'd hit SK (who you didn't like or something along those lines) and we'd let you off the hook.

 

We didn't have syndisphere at the time and it was more of a peace term than i was an entirely voluntary entry. But I guess we'll count it?

 

3/1/2/2

Yeah that was one where we worked with you In the end, but there was a big one before that where we were on the opposite side too. 2 years ago now so difficult to recall, pre knows more.

[Saru]

Yeah that was one where we worked with you In the end, but there was a big one before that where we were on the opposite side too. 2 years ago now so difficult to recall, pre knows more.

 

Yeah that was one where we worked with you In the end, but there was a big one before that where we were on the opposite side too. 2 years ago now so difficult to recall, pre knows more.

 

Perhaps you are thinking of the "Marionette War", where Guardian, Rose, SK and TEst warred with TC (UPN, DEIC, EoS, BoC) -- no one else entered in this one. The next world war after that was the VE war, where Guardian/Mensa/SK declared on VE, and UPN jumped in to help. And in between that the only thing of significance was GPA getting rolled.

[greatkitteh]

Hmmm, I dislike losing though.

UPN wasn't bad