Religion

[Spite]

Age of consent yes, which have changed before and may again. My own thoughts on the matter are irrelevant to the question I put forward to Ibrahim, a question he fails to answer either with a show of support or condemnation. If your arguement is sound and correct (and he thinks so out of necessity) then he should have no fear in answering me. I'm not going to faff about here with pointless distinctions, talk of history, foreign laws, ephebophilia, or any such distracting arguement. You think I'm wrong, thats fine and dandy, but it ain't important to the main thing I've been pushing to the main event. 

So if the age of consent is defined as puberty, then they're not paedophiles are they?

 

Unless you mean age of consent in the USA.

[Redrum]

On 4/29/2015 at 8:29 AM, Pol Pot said:

jesus is the way the truth and the light.

 

it's impossible to deny his glory

 

Edited September 9, 2017 by Redrum
delete

[Robert Ap Ioan]

The age of consent should bear in mind the maturity of the people involved. I don't think that a pretty teen has the maturity to be a mother.

[Kemal Ergenekon]

I find the idea of the creator of the cosmos getting its panties in a knot because some living creatures on a speck of dust are copulating with other living creatures while not meeting some criteria amusing.

[Wayne]

I find the idea of the creator of the cosmos getting its panties in a knot because some living creatures on a speck of dust are copulating with other living creatures while not meeting some criteria amusing.

 

tbf, he made everything so perfect that he no longer needs to meddle.  So he's probably really !@#$ing bored and just looking for things to gripe over...

[Ibrahim (Banned)]

I find the idea of the creator of the cosmos getting its panties in a knot because some living creatures on a speck of dust are copulating with other living creatures while not meeting some criteria amusing.

 

Just as every manufactured good you purchase comes with an instruction manual from the creator of that product, I would argue, so too do Human beings. You may think its amusing for something like "sex outside of marriage" to be expressly prohibited but when you look at all the abandoned kids who grew up without a farther (cause he abandoned them as soon as his GF got pregnant), all the STDs that are prevalent in society, the rampant prostituting/pimping of women from low-income families, etc... you won't find it as amusing.

[Rozalia]

So if the age of consent is defined as puberty, then they're not paedophiles are they?

 

Unless you mean age of consent in the USA.

 

They can put it in their law that it's correct to rape babies if they want, won't change how I perceive it. Just because it's dandy there doesn't mean I can't condemn it. Ibrahim likewise is free to show his support of it, but as always he can't ever answer a direct question.

 

Just as every manufactured good you purchase comes with an instruction manual from the creator of that product, I would argue, so too do Human beings. You may think its amusing for something like "sex outside of marriage" to be expressly prohibited but when you look at all the abandoned kids who grew up without a farther (cause he abandoned them as soon as his GF got pregnant), all the STDs that are prevalent in society, the rampant prostituting/pimping of women from low-income families, etc... you won't find it as amusing.

 

Why is a man raping (yeah we know you think it's all fine and dandy, you know what I'm saying) a child to feed his pedophilia correct, but a man sodomising his wife because they're into that sort of stuff incorrect? 

Edited November 2, 2015 by Rozalia

[Kemal Ergenekon]

Just as every manufactured good you purchase comes with an instruction manual from the creator of that product, I would argue, so too do Human beings. You may think its amusing for something like "sex outside of marriage" to be expressly prohibited but when you look at all the abandoned kids who grew up without a farther (cause he abandoned them as soon as his GF got pregnant), all the STDs that are prevalent in society, the rampant prostituting/pimping of women from low-income families, etc... you won't find it as amusing.

 

Stop right there pal. Since Quran was sent on 600-something CE, are you implying that Allah was a horrible manufacturer who sent the instruction manual thousands of years later than Adam and Eve? Sounds like very shoddy business.

 

Also, I wouldn't consider humans "manufactured good you purchase" but let's not go there yet.

[Tali]

Stop right there pal. Since Quran was sent on 600-something CE, are you implying that Allah was a horrible manufacturer who sent the instruction manual thousands of years later than Adam and Eve? Sounds like very shoddy business.

 

Also, I wouldn't consider humans "manufactured good you purchase" but let's not go there yet.

This post has won this debate. <3

[Ibrahim (Banned)]

Stop right there pal. Since Quran was sent on 600-something CE, are you implying that Allah was a horrible manufacturer who sent the instruction manual thousands of years later than Adam and Eve? Sounds like very shoddy business.

 

Allah (swt) sent hundreds of thousands of Prophets/Messengers and the first amongst them was Adam (AS) himself. All of them essentially carried the same message of strict, uncompromising, Monotheism to their people and as Muslims we believe Allah (swt) sent down other scriptures like the (Torah) the Law given to Moses, Zabur (Psalms given to David) and Injeel (Gospels of Jesus Christ) but we believe they were only given to a specific people and were meant for a specific time.The reason why He (swt) delayed sending down the Quran fully was because Humans had not advanced enough to be able to grasp it's message and when they did he sent it down as the final revelation for humankind until the day of judgment.

 

"And for every nation is a messenger. So when their messenger comes, it will be judged between them in justice, and they will not be wronged" (Quran 10:47)

 

"And We certainly sent into every nation a messenger, (saying): "Worship Allah (Alone), and avoid Taghut (all false deities)." And among them were those whom Allah guided, and among them were those upon whom error was [deservedly] decreed. So proceed through the earth and observe how was the end of the deniers." (Quran 16:36)

 

"And We have already sent messengers before you. Among them are those [whose stories] We have related to you, and among them are those [whose stories] We have not related to you. And it was not for any messenger to bring a sign [or verse] except by permission of Allah . So when the command of Allah comes, it will be concluded in truth, and the falsifiers will thereupon lose [all]." (Quran 40:78)

 

Also, I wouldn't consider humans "manufactured good you purchase" but let's not go there yet.

 

Just an analogy mate.

[Soxirella]

It's either surprising that this thread has reached Page 18 or interesting that it has only reached Page 18!!

[Aksel]

Voted for them all - religions are formed based off belief and faith. Just because I might believe my religion is the correct one, doesn't mean others aren't the correct one for them. 

 

Peace, Love, Smiles, and butterflies and all that shit.

[Spite]

They can put it in their law that it's correct to rape babies if they want, won't change how I perceive it. Just because it's dandy there doesn't mean I can't condemn it. Ibrahim likewise is free to show his support of it, but as always he can't ever answer a direct question.

 

 

Why is a man raping (yeah we know you think it's all fine and dandy, you know what I'm saying) a child to feed his pedophilia correct, but a man sodomising his wife because they're into that sort of stuff incorrect?

You didn't actually answer my question. What should the age of consent be?

[Peace and War]

Okay since were talking about sex outside of marriage and age of consent being morally wrong. I think it would also be fair to talk about arranged marriages, which is common in religions like Islam and others across the world.

 

Personally I don't care about the age of consent so much, if its their choice to have sex then that's up to them, I don't see anything morally wrong about that.

 

Arranged marriages to me is also morally wrong, since marriage is supposed to be for life and to take the right of choice away is to deprive the couple of their rights and their happiness.

 

Now as for sex outside marriage I will leave it at this, humanity would not be around today if humans did not have sex with multiple people before the invention of marriage. Which was just invented by religion btw.

 

Religion doesn't really hold up well compared to the past. Makes me believe people have been spending more time learning religion than learning history.

[Rozalia]

You didn't actually answer my question. What should the age of consent be?

 

16. Child marriages (which are also arranged marriages) target many younger than that and is thus to me morally wrong. The child is used as a tool by their family to gain wealth and such, and the male part of the "union" is doing it to get in essence a child slave he can use to get his rocks off with. Ibrahim can talk of it being an action of charity on part of the man all he likes (what his argument there when he dares speak seems to be), I disagree.

[Fox Fire]

You didn't actually answer my question. What should the age of consent be?

Well it shouldn't be 8. 

Hesiod suggests that a man should marry at around the age of 30 and take a wife at around 5 years past puberty.

However, something you have to consider about traditional, old views of the age of consent, is that back in the days when marrying 8 yr olds was common practice, there was no concept of "childhood". Children were not considered "children" but small adults. 

I would personally place the age of consent at around 16 based on the things we now know about anatomy, the human immune system and the development of the human brain. 

[Fox Fire]

Just as every manufactured good you purchase comes with an instruction manual from the creator of that product, I would argue, so too do Human beings. You may think its amusing for something like "sex outside of marriage" to be expressly prohibited but when you look at all the abandoned kids who grew up without a farther (cause he abandoned them as soon as his GF got pregnant), all the STDs that are prevalent in society, the rampant prostituting/pimping of women from low-income families, etc... you won't find it as amusing.

The Tao Te Ching is ~1,200 years older than your Quran.

• It doesn't advocate violence.
• It doesn't deny the existence of God.
• It accepts the reality of religious and philosophical diversity of opinions and uses this fact to assume it's validity.

 

Why is this not the proper guide book to life as opposed to the Quran? It seems to accept existence and life for what it actually is, rather than trying to make it into something it isn't:

 

 

The Tao (path) that can be told

is not the universal Tao (path).

The name that can be named

is not the universal name.

 

In the infancy of the universe,

there were no names.

Naming fragments the mysteries of life

into ten thousand things and their manifestations.

 

Yet mysteries and manifestations

spring from the same source:

The Great Integrity

which is the mystery within manifestation,

the manifestation within mystery,

the naming of the unnamed,

and the un-naming of the named.

 

When these interpenetrations

are in full attendance,

we will pass the gates of naming notions

in our journey toward transcendence.

 

 

Fact is, life actually doesn't come with a guide book. People like to create a lot of crutches though.

[Spite]

16. Child marriages (which are also arranged marriages) target many younger than that and is thus to me morally wrong. The child is used as a tool by their family to gain wealth and such, and the male part of the "union" is doing it to get in essence a child slave he can use to get his rocks off with. Ibrahim can talk of it being an action of charity on part of the man all he likes (what his argument there when he dares speak seems to be), I disagree.

What you're saying is that the Islamic State are pedophiles for allowing girls as young as 13 to marry and have sex. I would agree that girls that age should not be marrying, especially men more than five years older than them.

 

However the age of consent is lower than 16 in 26 European countries. I feel that if you're going to condemn the Islamic State for supporting pedophiles you also have to condemn them.

 

Rape and forced marriage are a different, separate issue.

[Rozalia]

What you're saying is that the Islamic State are pedophiles for allowing girls as young as 13 to marry and have sex. I would agree that girls that age should not be marrying, especially men more than five years older than them.

 

However the age of consent is lower than 16 in 26 European countries. I feel that if you're going to condemn the Islamic State for supporting pedophiles you also have to condemn them.

 

Rape and forced marriage are a different, separate issue.

 

What they are allowed is irrelevant, you allow the man to have sex with them. The girl's rights are irrelevant as they don't choose to get married (their parents do), and they don't choose to then have sex either (they can hardly resist). 

 

I can condemn them very easily, not sure why you think I'd not be able to. 

 

One and the same when it comes to the forced child marriages being talked here.

[Spite]

I'm sorry but your original argument was that they're pedophiles for having sex with 13 and 14 year olds. I think we've conclusively proved that isn't the case now, unless you also want to condemn more than half of the western world for also being pedophiles.

 

Onto the issue of arranged marriage. Arranged marriage is a cultural issue which is entirely separate from forced sex (rape) so let's deal with that next.

 

Arranged marriage is something a lot of people are uncomfortable with, but let's look at the purposes of marriage in the West vs the rest of the world

 

In the West the main point of marriage is to cement your future with the person you love. That's it.

 

Outside of the West marriage is there to provide children, for wealth, for status, for cultural and religious reasons.

 

54% of marriages worldwide are arranged. And the divorce rate is only 6% in arranged marriages as opposed to around 45% for "love" marriages, and so really the figure is higher.

 

Are you saying that around 54% of married couples in the world are unhappily married and that it was conclusively wrong for them to be married this way?

[Fox Fire]

What you're saying is that the Islamic State are pedophiles for allowing girls as young as 13 to marry and have sex. I would agree that girls that age should not be marrying, especially men more than five years older than them.

 

However the age of consent is lower than 16 in 26 European countries. I feel that if you're going to condemn the Islamic State for supporting pedophiles you also have to condemn them.

 

Rape and forced marriage are a different, separate issue.

How is rape and forced marriage NOT related to the age of consent?

[Fox Fire]

Are you saying that around 54% of married couples in the world are unhappily married and that it was conclusively wrong for them to be married this way? 

 

 

Considering they have no choice, I would very much assume so, yes.

[Spite]

Age of consent is a separate issue. There's no evidence that countries with lower age of consent laws have higher numbers of rapes and I challenge you to find that evidence. In fact those countries with stricter laws (parts of Africa and south America) also have some of the highest rape figures.

 

Regarding your assumptions on arranged marriages, assumption is all it is. Studies have not born thus prejudice out.

[Rozalia]

I'm sorry but your original argument was that they're pedophiles for having sex with 13 and 14 year olds. I think we've conclusively proved that isn't the case now, unless you also want to condemn more than half of the western world for also being pedophiles.

 

Onto the issue of arranged marriage. Arranged marriage is a cultural issue which is entirely separate from forced sex (rape) so let's deal with that next.

 

Arranged marriage is something a lot of people are uncomfortable with, but let's look at the purposes of marriage in the West vs the rest of the world

 

In the West the main point of marriage is to cement your future with the person you love. That's it.

 

Outside of the West marriage is there to provide children, for wealth, for status, for cultural and religious reasons.

 

54% of marriages worldwide are arranged. And the divorce rate is only 6% in arranged marriages as opposed to around 45% for "love" marriages, and so really the figure is higher.

 

Are you saying that around 54% of married couples in the world are unhappily married and that it was conclusively wrong for them to be married this way?

 

I can condemn those who indulge and support it yes, again not sure why you'd think mentioning European laws is some sort of "gotcha".

 

Uh... I would think the very oppressive state in the countries of arranged marriages for the women has something to do with it. Not a huge surprise a terrified women who sees no way out unless the man decides to divorce them won't file for divorce. 

 

 

Age of consent is a separate issue. There's no evidence that countries with lower age of consent laws have higher numbers of rapes and I challenge you to find that evidence. In fact those countries with stricter laws (parts of Africa and south America) also have some of the highest rape figures.

 

Regarding your assumptions on arranged marriages, assumption is all it is. Studies have not born thus prejudice out.

 

Are we still talking about child brides here? If so you'll find the reason high number of rapes aren't reported there is because firstly they can't report it to begin with (or even if they could they are too terrified of the consequences), and secondly... some have it as you point out, the law. Rape within marriage is perfectly fine in many places. 

[Spite]

So what you're saying is that half of Europe are pedophiles, and although you have no evidence and there is no evidence that this is the case, you believe arranged marriages lead to unhappiness and rape.