Religion

[Spite]

In Ibrahim's defence age of consent is an entirely man made invention which changes depending on the culture and traditions at the time. In the UK it's 16, in the US 18, Sweden it's 15, Germany 14, Spain 13. In medieval Europe the age of marriage was also the age of puberty, and it was common for girls as young as 11 or 12 to bear children. Societal norms now can't be compared to what they were then.

[Rozalia]

In Ibrahim's defence age of consent is an entirely man made invention which changes depending on the culture and traditions at the time. In the UK it's 16, in the US 18, Sweden it's 15, Germany 14, Spain 13. In medieval Europe the age of marriage was also the age of puberty, and it was common for girls as young as 11 or 12 to bear children. Societal norms now can't be compared to what they were then.

 

I addressed that. 

 

Saying it was all a "product of his time" is no defense. He is supposed to be a prophet, heck the supposed final prophet and yet he didn't raise the bar of morality above all the Pagans (well actually some of those Pagans were above him in morality there but whatever) about at the time and get rid of such pedophilia, instead indulging in it himself? He was certainly in a strong enough position to do so, yet he didn't.

[Spite]

Don't be ridiculous. Firstly Muhammad was a man, nobody claims he was divine. He was raised in ancient Arabia not in the modern United States. Even if you are Muslim and believe he was literally a mouthpiece for God, he still lived in those times and was relatively uneducated. Plus he had to live and work with millions of other people of that time.

 

Imagine Muhammad could somehow see the future and knew about the modern era and modern values. Imagine if he started to behave like a modern man. It would be ridiculous, nobody would take him seriously.

 

Also, from his perspective it would be us who would be wrong. For him, and billions of people worldwide, sex post-puberty is normal. For him, sex outside of marriage would he as bad, if not worse, than sex with someone under 18 is to us. What it comes down to is that you have a different set of values to people who lived in ancient Arabia, or for that matter, in Spain or Germany now.

[Ibrahim (Banned)]

Don't be ridiculous. Firstly Muhammad was a man, nobody claims he was divine. He was raised in ancient Arabia not in the modern United States. Even if you are Muslim and believe he was literally a mouthpiece for God, he still lived in those times and was relatively uneducated. Plus he had to live and work with millions of other people of that time.

 

Imagine Muhammad could somehow see the future and knew about the modern era and modern values. Imagine if he started to behave like a modern man. It would be ridiculous, nobody would take him seriously.

 

Also, from his perspective it would be us who would be wrong. For him, and billions of people worldwide, sex post-puberty is normal. For him, sex outside of marriage would he as bad, if not worse, than sex with someone under 18 is to us. What it comes down to is that you have a different set of values to people who lived in ancient Arabia, or for that matter, in Spain or Germany now.

 

"You have reached your quota of positive votes for the day".

[Rozalia]

Don't be ridiculous. Firstly Muhammad was a man, nobody claims he was divine. He was raised in ancient Arabia not in the modern United States. Even if you are Muslim and believe he was literally a mouthpiece for God, he still lived in those times and was relatively uneducated. Plus he had to live and work with millions of other people of that time.

 

Imagine Muhammad could somehow see the future and knew about the modern era and modern values. Imagine if he started to behave like a modern man. It would be ridiculous, nobody would take him seriously.

 

Also, from his perspective it would be us who would be wrong. For him, and billions of people worldwide, sex post-puberty is normal. For him, sex outside of marriage would he as bad, if not worse, than sex with someone under 18 is to us. What it comes down to is that you have a different set of values to people who lived in ancient Arabia, or for that matter, in Spain or Germany now.

 

It's a problem when he is supposed to be the perfect Muslim who you should emulate and is thus used as an excuse to commit pedophilia. Look at Ibrahim for an example of how it rots away at him. He condones pedophilia be it perpetrated by the mentioned above, ISIS, and all the rest who take child brides. He is careful as usual to never outright say it, but his constant avoidance to condemn it even challenged is answer enough. 

 

So Allah also can't see the future and couldn't drop a hint to adopt instead of marrying? Why is the "final prophet" using such primitive morality anyway? Well I suppose perhaps that isn't relevant so moving on. With his power and influence stopping child brides would be simple enough.

 

Oh I understand that viewpoint quite clearly but you misunderstand what the crux of the matter is. Can Ibrahim say that he thinks that Muhammad was an imperfect man (he might do at least up to here) and that he (Ibrahim) as a modern human being finds Muhammad's pedophilia wrong. That the child brides are wrong, and that ISIS is committing great misdeeds with their own pedophilia? Considering the amount of chances presented to him, no he cannot for he condones and accepts pedophilia as being correct. He can condemn all those I mentioned to prove that wrong, otherwise it is correct. 

[Ibrahim (Banned)]

trolling/baiting ...  child brides.

 

There not children if they have reached the age of puberty. 

 

A milestone you apparently have yet to achieve.

[Geronimo]

You've pointed out a few interesting points.

 

Maybe you should ask him? Really though, the Bible in general is a mix of philosophy, history and religious themes. No doubt they believed they were killing in the name of God.

How come? Through prayers, eh?

 

 

Which miracles are you referring to? What kind of evidence? There is very little evidence of anything that happened back then (and ISIS are blowing the rest up). Nobody was around to get a selfie of jesus walking on water or catching loads of fish. He didn't magically create any convenient triumphal arcs.

The Bible (Genesis 6–9) describes a worldwide flood (the Noachian Flood) covering even the highest mountains of the earth and the construction of a huge boat (a rectangular box-like craft) that transported animals, at least two of a kind of all land animals on the earth. The Qur'an (Suras 11 and 71) has almost a duplicate story with a similar huge boat that transported animals and a worldwide flood. In addition two older stories exist in ancient Babylonian epics that describe a huge flood. One is the Epic of Gilgamesh, describing a flood on the Euphrates River (Academy of Ancient Texts nd). The other is the Epic of Atrahasis, which has a huge flood on the Tigris River (Byers nd).

We read in the Bible that there is only one time in which the Flood waters are said to recede and leave the earth dry. That is, no multiple worldwide climatic conditions are described in which flooding, then drying to a dry earth, more flooding, more drying to a dry earth, in repeated cycles that occur over and over again in that Flood year. On that basis, it is logical that all the kinds of evaporite deposits and red beds in many different levels in the supposed Noachian Flood deposits could form only in local climates with desert drying-conditions and could not possibly have formed all at the same time — a time when a flood covered the whole earth for more than one year (Collins 2006). On that basis, the Noachian Flood story cannot describe a whole-earth flood, but it could only represent a large regional flood.

 

Reference: Collins LG. 2006. Time to accumulate chloride ions in the world's oceans — More than 3.6 billion years: Creationism's young earth not supported. Reports of the National Center for Science Education 26 (5): 16–8, 23–4.

[Rozalia]

There not children if they have reached the age of puberty. 

 

A milestone you apparently have yet to achieve.

 

Child marriage, defined as a formal marriage or informal union before age 18 - unicef

 

You're wrong as per usual. Though thanks for confirming me correct as ever on your views. I mean it's not enough to support genocide, intolerance, discrimination, the destroying of free speech, and that fantasy of yours of Islam taking over the world. You got to support pedophilia/crimes against children too. Is there no level you won't stoop to?

[Ibrahim (Banned)]

You've pointed out a few interesting points.

 

How come? Through prayers, eh?

 

 

The Bible (Genesis 6–9) describes a worldwide flood (the Noachian Flood) covering even the highest mountains of the earth and the construction of a huge boat (a rectangular box-like craft) that transported animals, at least two of a kind of all land animals on the earth. The Qur'an (Suras 11 and 71) has almost a duplicate story with a similar huge boat that transported animals and a worldwide flood. In addition two older stories exist in ancient Babylonian epics that describe a huge flood. One is the Epic of Gilgamesh, describing a flood on the Euphrates River (Academy of Ancient Texts nd). The other is the Epic of Atrahasis, which has a huge flood on the Tigris River (Byers nd).

We read in the Bible that there is only one time in which the Flood waters are said to recede and leave the earth dry. That is, no multiple worldwide climatic conditions are described in which flooding, then drying to a dry earth, more flooding, more drying to a dry earth, in repeated cycles that occur over and over again in that Flood year. On that basis, it is logical that all the kinds of evaporite deposits and red beds in many different levels in the supposed Noachian Flood deposits could form only in local climates with desert drying-conditions and could not possibly have formed all at the same time — a time when a flood covered the whole earth for more than one year (Collins 2006). On that basis, the Noachian Flood story cannot describe a whole-earth flood, but it could only represent a large regional flood.

 

Reference: Collins LG. 2006. Time to accumulate chloride ions in the world's oceans — More than 3.6 billion years: Creationism's young earth not supported. Reports of the National Center for Science Education 26 (5): 16–8, 23–4.

 

The difference between the Bible and the Quran regarding the story of Noah and the flood:

 

1. The bible claims it was a global flood that destroyed every living thing on earth except those present with Noah (AS) in the ark.

 

"The description suggests that the event took place 1656 years after the creation of Adam (AS) or 292 years before the birth of Abraham (AS), at a time when Noah (AS) was 600 years old. Thus the flood may have occurred in the 21st or 22nd Century B.C. This story of the flood, as given in the Bible, contradicts scientific evidence from archaeological sources which indicate that the eleventh dynasty in Egypt and the third dynasty in Babylonia were in existence without any break in civilisation and in a manner totally unaffected by any major calamity which may have occurred in the 21st century B.C. This contradicts the Biblical story that the whole world had been immersed in the flood water."

 

2. The Quran's account of the story of Noah and the flood, on the other hand, does not conflict with scientific evidence or archaeological data.

 

"The Qur’an does not indicate any specific date or year of the occurance of that event, and secondly, according to the Qur’an the flood was not a global-wide phenomenon that completely wiped out all life on earth. In fact the Qur’an specifically mentions that the flood was a localised event only involving the people of Noah (AS). It is illogical to assume that Prophet Muhummad (saw) had borrowed the story of the flood from the Bible and corrected the mistakes before mentioning it in the Qur’an."

[Speaker Faris Wheeler]

WTH is Dioism? Is that like Sheepyism? >_>

Baa'ism Edited October 30, 2015 by Lysandre Mackintosh

[Spite]

Ok firstly Luckynako, your question was regarding Jesus miracles, not the creation myths of the old testament. Jesus was a historical character regardless of whether you believe he was divine. The creation myths in the old testament aren't taken literally by most, and even if you did take it literally, the word for earth and land is the same in ancient Hebrew, so "covering all of the earth" probably just refers to the fact that the land mass near them was flooded.

 

Rozalia, Muhammad like jesus and the Buddha was a religious figure which his followers aspire to emulate. With the risk of being trite however, most modern Christians and Muslims have vaccines, central heating and work in modern jobs. They don't go to work as a carpent have children in barns or have sex with thirteen year olds.

 

On the matter of child marriage, you can marry at 16 here.

[Geronimo]

The difference between the Bible and the Quran regarding the story of Noah and the flood:

 

1. The bible claims it was a global flood that destroyed every living thing on earth except those present with Noah (AS) in the ark.

 

"The description suggests that the event took place 1656 years after the creation of Adam (AS) or 292 years before the birth of Abraham (AS), at a time when Noah (AS) was 600 years old. Thus the flood may have occurred in the 21st or 22nd Century B.C. This story of the flood, as given in the Bible, contradicts scientific evidence from archaeological sources which indicate that the eleventh dynasty in Egypt and the third dynasty in Babylonia were in existence without any break in civilisation and in a manner totally unaffected by any major calamity which may have occurred in the 21st century B.C. This contradicts the Biblical story that the whole world had been immersed in the flood water."

 

2. The Quran's account of the story of Noah and the flood, on the other hand, does not conflict with scientific evidence or archaeological data.

 

"The Qur’an does not indicate any specific date or year of the occurance of that event, and secondly, according to the Qur’an the flood was not a global-wide phenomenon that completely wiped out all life on earth. In fact the Qur’an specifically mentions that the flood was a localised event only involving the people of Noah (AS). It is illogical to assume that Prophet Muhummad (saw) had borrowed the story of the flood from the Bible and corrected the mistakes before mentioning it in the Qur’an."

 

In my humble opinion, Koran has no different to the Bible. Both of them consist of many hilarious (re: illogical) stories. Let me quote something from Koran, [Koran 54:1] The Hour has come closer, and the moon has split. [Koran 54:2] Then they saw a miracle; but they turned away and said, "Old magic."

But recently, NASA has come to disapprove Koran's claims about splitting of the moon. In 2010 a NASA Lunar Science Institute (NLSI) staff scientist said "No current scientific evidence reports that the Moon was split into two (or more) parts and then reassembled at any point in the past."

Edited October 30, 2015 by Luckynako

[Rozalia]

Rozalia, Muhammad like jesus and the Buddha was a religious figure which his followers aspire to emulate. With the risk of being trite however, most modern Christians and Muslims have vaccines, central heating and work in modern jobs. They don't go to work as a carpent have children in barns or have sex with thirteen year olds

There is a very real group of people (that Ibrahim supports) who use it as moral justification to have sex with thirteen year olds. The Muhammad thing ultimately is irrelevant as long as the people today (modern) can at the very least condemn pedophilia (today). Ibrahim cannot do that be it the standard fundis or ISIS doing it, hence my posts in his direction.

[Ibrahim (Banned)]

In my humble opinion, Koran has no different to the Bible. Both of them are consisted of many hilarious (re: illogical) stories. Let me quote something from Koran, [Koran 54:1] The Hour has come closer, and the moon has split. [Koran 54:2] Then they saw a miracle; but they turned away and said, "Old magic."

But recently, NASA has come to disapprove Koran's claims about splitting of the moon. In 2010 a NASA Lunar Science Institute (NLSI) staff scientist said "No current scientific evidence reports that the Moon was split into two (or more) parts and then reassembled at any point in the past."

 

Is their any current scientific evidence to suggest the Moon wasn't spilt and reassembled?

[Sailor Jerry]

Here's the thing with religious texts like the Bible, the Torah and the Koran, you must keep in mind the times in which these were written and how things were perceived/interpreted during those times.  "....the moon has split" could be referring to something passing over the moon like some high, thick clouds. If the clouds passed horizontally across the center of the moon, it would appear as if it had split in half and once the clouds passed, the moon would be whole again.  I'm not saying that is what happened in this case, but you get my point.  It is virtually impossible to understand the meaning of what people saw 1000-2000 years ago since things were looked at very differently between now and then. 

[Spite]

There is a very real group of people (that Ibrahim supports) who use it as moral justification to have sex with thirteen year olds. The Muhammad thing ultimately is irrelevant as long as the people today (modern) can at the very least condemn pedophilia (today). Ibrahim cannot do that be it the standard fundis or ISIS doing it, hence my posts in his direction.

Mate, I hate to burst your bubble but age of consent was basically introduced to ensure children had a full education before they fathered children. Prior to the middle ages there was no such concept as childhood and children worked the same as adults. Age of consent was set high in the UK because of middle class outrage at underage prostitution and exported across the anglosphere. Germany, Italy, most of south America, China etc all have the age of consent at 14. The only "European" countries with 18 (the age of adulthood) as the age of consent are Turkey, Malta and the Vatican City!

[Ibrahim (Banned)]

Allah (swt) can split the moon and reassemble it perfectly.

 

If you have evidence to suggest that this certainly did not happen then kindly present it.

[Wayne]

... and the Vatican City!

 

LOL'd

 

Allah (swt) can split the moon and reassemble it perfectly.

 

If you have evidence to suggest that this certainly did not happen then kindly present it.

Point me to the evidence of this ever happening.

Edited October 30, 2015 by Wayne

[Spite]

Pff languages are vague and meanings change over time. Imagine if I wrote that the Prime Minister had made an arse of himself. In two thousand years someone is writing that I'm an idiot because the prime minister did not literally transform himself into an arse.

[Ibrahim (Banned)]

Point me to the evidence of this ever happening.

 

I'll take this as an admission that you can not do so.

 

Once again, the Quran does not contradict modern established science.

[Franz Von Dietrich]

I'll take this as an admission that you can not do so.

 

Once again, the Quran does not contradict modern established science.

Unless you can present the knowledge on how "Allah" split the moon "perfectly and reassemble" it. Your claim is false, until proven otherwise. Stop being ignorant on this point of view, and actually be an open thinker.

[Geronimo]

Allah (swt) can split the moon and reassemble it perfectly.

 

If you have evidence to suggest that this certainly did not happen then kindly present it.

 

There is no remotely reasonable natural process that could cause a body the size of the moon to split in two to a degree sufficient to be visible from earth without catastrophic effects for both the earth and the moon. So, logically if the moon was split into two pieces or more it would cause a global catastrophe. Did any global catastrophe events happen that time?

 

Well, If you have evidence to suggest that this certainly did happen then kindly present it.

[Wayne]

I'll take this as an admission that you can not do so.

 

Once again, the Quran does not contradict modern established science.

You are the one claiming that the moon has been spilt in two. I have neither claimed it has, nor said it hasn't. It is up to you to provide the evidence here!

[Rozalia]

Mate, I hate to burst your bubble but age of consent was basically introduced to ensure children had a full education before they fathered children. Prior to the middle ages there was no such concept as childhood and children worked the same as adults. Age of consent was set high in the UK because of middle class outrage at underage prostitution and exported across the anglosphere. Germany, Italy, most of south America, China etc all have the age of consent at 14. The only "European" countries with 18 (the age of adulthood) as the age of consent are Turkey, Malta and the Vatican City!

 

I'm aware of the changing of age of consent and what it used to be. Not really relevant to what I'm saying considering I and any other person here can very easily condemn pedophilia. Ibrahim cannot due to his conflicts of interest.

 

I'll take this as an admission that you can not do so.

 

Once again, the Quran does not contradict modern established science.

 

No, you got to pony up the evidence of it happening first as the burden is on you. As the Quran/whatever religious text you bring up is not a valid source I'll take your insane troll logic there to be an admission that you've got nothing.

[Ibrahim (Banned)]

You are the one claiming that the moon has been spilt in two. I have neither claimed it has, nor said it hasn't. It is up to you to provide the evidence here!

 

I apologise, the initial post you responded to was again directed at Luckynako who claimed that it did not happen.

 

If you're position on the matter differs to his then I have no argument with you.

 

There is no remotely reasonable natural process that could cause a body the size of the moon to split in two to a degree sufficient to be visible from earth without catastrophic effects for both the earth and the moon. So, logically if the moon was split into two pieces or more it would cause a global catastrophe. Did any global catastrophe events happen that time?

 

Well, If you have evidence to suggest that this certainly did happen then kindly present it.

 

Allah (swt) can split the moon and simultaneously prevent global catastrophe as a result.

 

The crux of this argument is really whether or not you believe in Allah (swt)/God so let's stop dancing around the issue and address it directly.