The "Retarded" Thread

[Grillick]

You're right Fox Fire. It's entirely pointless to have a conversation in the General Debate thread that isn't ditectky tied to a change in moderation policy. Obviously we shouldn't be discussing the minimum wage or nationalism either. These should just be handled with competent moderation.

 

(And maybe a spell-checker)

[Fox Fire]

You're right Fox Fire. It's entirely pointless to have a conversation in the General Debate thread that isn't ditectky tied to a change in moderation policy. Obviously we shouldn't be discussing the minimum wage or nationalism either. These should just be handled with competent moderation.

 

(And maybe a spell-checker)

See, you get the idea.

 

Anyways, please continue. I remembered just now that I dont care because I do what I want. :/

[Hereno]

excuse me u bigoted piece of !@#$, i identify as a hereno and i'll have u know that herenos like me are a persecuted minority in dis country, every day i suffer under the psych-o-logical weight of bein called "commie" and "red" and treated like i am not an expert on errything that i think i am, and ppl like u make my life a living hell

LMAO

 

what even is this? am i supposed to be upset?

 

i thought you took insults and such in stride, but i didn't even really insult you so much as just tell the truth

 

and your reaction to that was to make a post with the single point of being a character assassination

 

looks like i was right after all, eh kid?

 

!@#$in' liberals

[Dietrich]

LMAO

 

what even is this? am i supposed to be upset?

 

i thought you took insults and such in stride, but i didn't even really insult you so much as just tell the truth

 

and your reaction to that was to make a post with the single point of being a character assassination

 

looks like i was right after all, eh kid?

 

!@#$in' liberals

 

If you cannot recognize a parody intended to demonstrate the sheer ridiculousness of your own post, then I will instead endeavor to explain myself in the most explicit possible terms.

 

You decided to attack me and what you believe to be my background (which you can't even be sure of, incidentally; I could be non-white, poor, and mentally disabled for all you know), which has no relevance to my arguments, in an attempt to discredit my opinion. I responded in like terms in an attempt to show you how ridiculous your attack was, and how little you were contributing to the discussion by making such a post. Now, for the second time, you have decided to make a post which contributes nothing to the discussion at hand, for a purpose which this time is wholly unclear to me. Let me be very, very explicit now: my background has little to no relevance with regard to the point that I was trying to make.

 

To be absolutely clear, my stance on the use of the words "retard" and "retarded", as well as all other potentially offensive words, is not that they are unoffensive, or that those offended by them should be forced to endure psychological suffering by hearing them constantly; my stance is that one has to learn to intellectually self-segregate if one wishes to avoid such offense and suffering. Offended by these words? Don't hang out with people who use them. It's that simple. People who don't like me don't have to hang out with me; people who don't like you don't have to hang out with you. I happen not to be offended by most potentially offensive language, and I can generally shrug off that which does offend me, unless it is either absolutely ubiquitous or repeatedly directed specifically at me; therefore, I hang out with people who use such language, and I'm happy. I am aware, however, that there are mentally disabled individuals who are offended by words like "retard" and "retarded"; therefore, they should not hang out with people who use those words, and they will be happy.

 

I don't ask people who think that white, middle-class individuals lack perspective and legitimate opinions to hang out with me. Likewise, the mentally disabled do not have to ask individuals who regularly use language which offends them to hang out with them. This is how an intellectually diverse society must operate; if one person cannot tolerate another person's opinions, then the intolerant person must self-segregate in order to avoid the opinions of the intolerable person.

 

Whenever one group (for example, modern social justice advocates) decides that it doesn't want another group (for example, people who use offensive language) to exist, it must eliminate that other group. In this case, that elimination is taking the form of indoctrination and intimidation, teaching people that political correctness is universally morally correct and forcing people to be politically correct for fear of being ostracized or even persecuted, if the institutions governing behavior accept this indoctrination; this is at least less brutal and inhumane than outright genocide, but it is no less damaging to diversity in our society.

 

If we truly wish to build an inclusive, diverse society, then we have to allow people who say and do things we disagree with to live as they see fit without excessive interference. These people should, of course, learn to tolerate an occasional attempt at interference, the same way that I sometimes have to politely decline to speak with political advocates who want me to adhere to their views. However, as long as everyone is polite and tolerant of people with views different than their own, these encounters will end quickly and without serious consequence, as they should.

[Mikhail Gorbachev]

Yup. I was pretty drunk last night.

Regardless, I suppose it doesnt matter if this becomes a rule, because I wont follow it.

 

 

Yeah. Instead, they started bashing homosexuals and reading bible verses, which I find to be far worse.

 

 

Hereno is a race?

 

 

So we should punish people for their culture!! Brilliant!!! (In the rediculous Guiness commercial voices)

Yeah, but can we say that bashing homosexuals and using offensive words are both bad?

[Placentica]

On the contrary, YOUR community is a pile of !@#$heads.

Now what?....

 

Isnt diversity great? (Even though it doesnt exist in PaW)

This is an excellent point.  We want to be non-judgmental and "tolerant", but in doing so we can be equally as judgmental.  Calling any community a pile of #&@*heads is just as offensive as the word retard imo.

 

I fine that people who get offended usually do it for self-serving purposes or because something directly effects them or family - which is still self-serving.

 

"Support Teachers" or other "Support xyz" usually just means they are a teacher or xyz (or have a family member that is).

 

I've never gotten offended by OOC/IC attacks against me.  I don't take *a game* that seriously and being offended is a state *I choose* and is 100% in my control.  And honestly when people say insulting things they are just trying to get under your skin and when you get offended/mad, you just make them laugh at you.

 

I chose to not let people offend me with anything they say.  Because it's the internet and the internet is not to be taken seriously.

[Hereno]

If you cannot recognize a parody intended to demonstrate the sheer ridiculousness of your own post, then I will instead endeavor to explain myself in the most explicit possible terms.

 

You decided to attack me and what you believe to be my background (which you can't even be sure of, incidentally; I could be non-white, poor, and mentally disabled for all you know), which has no relevance to my arguments, in an attempt to discredit my opinion. I responded in like terms in an attempt to show you how ridiculous your attack was, and how little you were contributing to the discussion by making such a post. Now, for the second time, you have decided to make a post which contributes nothing to the discussion at hand, for a purpose which this time is wholly unclear to me. Let me be very, very explicit now: my background has little to no relevance with regard to the point that I was trying to make.

 

To be absolutely clear, my stance on the use of the words "retard" and "retarded", as well as all other potentially offensive words, is not that they are unoffensive, or that those offended by them should be forced to endure psychological suffering by hearing them constantly; my stance is that one has to learn to intellectually self-segregate if one wishes to avoid such offense and suffering. Offended by these words? Don't hang out with people who use them. It's that simple. People who don't like me don't have to hang out with me; people who don't like you don't have to hang out with you. I happen not to be offended by most potentially offensive language, and I can generally shrug off that which does offend me, unless it is either absolutely ubiquitous or repeatedly directed specifically at me; therefore, I hang out with people who use such language, and I'm happy. I am aware, however, that there are mentally disabled individuals who are offended by words like "retard" and "retarded"; therefore, they should not hang out with people who use those words, and they will be happy.

 

I don't ask people who think that white, middle-class individuals lack perspective and legitimate opinions to hang out with me. Likewise, the mentally disabled do not have to ask individuals who regularly use language which offends them to hang out with them. This is how an intellectually diverse society must operate; if one person cannot tolerate another person's opinions, then the intolerant person must self-segregate in order to avoid the opinions of the intolerable person.

 

Whenever one group (for example, modern social justice advocates) decides that it doesn't want another group (for example, people who use offensive language) to exist, it must eliminate that other group. In this case, that elimination is taking the form of indoctrination and intimidation, teaching people that political correctness is universally morally correct and forcing people to be politically correct for fear of being ostracized or even persecuted, if the institutions governing behavior accept this indoctrination; this is at least less brutal and inhumane than outright genocide, but it is no less damaging to diversity in our society.

 

If we truly wish to build an inclusive, diverse society, then we have to allow people who say and do things we disagree with to live as they see fit without excessive interference. These people should, of course, learn to tolerate an occasional attempt at interference, the same way that I sometimes have to politely decline to speak with political advocates who want me to adhere to their views. However, as long as everyone is polite and tolerant of people with views different than their own, these encounters will end quickly and without serious consequence, as they should.

yeah i didn't read any of this shit

[Fox Fire]

Yeah, but can we say that bashing homosexuals and using offensive words are both bad?

You can. I dont believe in the concept of curse words, and I certainly dont think the word "retard" needs banned. Thats exactly what Id call "retard," if I havent made that clear yet.

[Stanislaw Sikorski]

Being a teenager in Britain, the word is used a lot so I really don't care much when people use it. I try to use curse words and insults to express myself or as a joke as opposed to trying to be offensive, although nobody actually takes anything offensive seriously (mostly because people are obviously joking and it has become funny to be offensive as a joke even if there's no clever thought behind it) and the word banter now describes anything said or done that's offensive/harmful.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Stanislaw Sikorski

[Ashland]

As I've said, I stopped saying retarded because of a lot of arguments I heard, some of which were also made by people in this thread.

 

I would add, however, that the outlook of people who want us to stop using it is not impressive.  When you ask them, "Well, what will we do when 'person who is mentally differently abled' becomes an insult just like 'retarded person' became an insult?" their answer is almost invariably, "Well, we'll change it again."

 

It's not... heartening.

[elsuper]

Do you use the term "retard" in your everyday conversations?

If you do, why?

If you don't, why not?

 

I used to occasionally, but I made a friend whose brother had Downs syndrome, and this brother is a pretty cool guy and I always think of him when someone says "retard" in a derogatory way; I've come to dislike it for this reason. I see it as the same question of respect surrounding use of  the word "gay."

[elsuper]

Whenever one group (for example, modern social justice advocates) decides that it doesn't want another group (for example, people who use offensive language) to exist, it must eliminate that other group. In this case, that elimination is taking the form of indoctrination and intimidation, teaching people that political correctness is universally morally correct and forcing people to be politically correct for fear of being ostracized or even persecuted, if the institutions governing behavior accept this indoctrination; this is at least less brutal and inhumane than outright genocide, but it is no less damaging to diversity in our society.

 

There are other reasons to avoid hurting people besides fear of what people will think.

[Fox Fire]

I used to occasionally, but I made a friend whose brother had Downs syndrome, and this brother is a pretty cool guy and I always think of him when someone says "retard" in a derogatory way; I've come to dislike it for this reason. I see it as the same question of respect surrounding use of  the word "gay."

Well I cant say I know many people who are 'severley' mentally disabled. Or at least not in the "retarded" sense. IE: I know a couple schizophrenics, people with PTSD, etc.

But the thing is, I dont believe in the concept of curse words. Reason being, the meaning of any word can easily be changed. This always happens.

A friend of mine (Who used to play this) is a gay male. He frequently reffers to things as being "gay" knowing full well that he himself is homosexual. It annoys his BF sometimes, but he doesnt throw a fit about it, because he knows that using the term "gay" to describe something he thinks is stupid has been part of his regular vocabulary long before he even hit puberty and realized he was gay. He (as well as myself) use the term without even realizing it, because its part of our lingo and we arent using it as an insult towards homosexuality.

 

This same thing applies to the word "retard."

[Grillick]

Well I cant say I know many people who are 'severley' mentally disabled. Or at least not in the "retarded" sense. IE: I know a couple schizophrenics, people with PTSD, etc.

But the thing is, I dont believe in the concept of curse words. Reason being, the meaning of any word can easily be changed. This always happens.

A friend of mine (Who used to play this) is a gay male. He frequently reffers to things as being "gay" knowing full well that he himself is homosexual. It annoys his BF sometimes, but he doesnt throw a fit about it, because he knows that using the term "gay" to describe something he thinks is stupid has been part of his regular vocabulary long before he even hit puberty and realized he was gay. He (as well as myself) use the term without even realizing it, because its part of our lingo and we arent using it as an insult towards homosexuality.

 

This same thing applies to the word "retard."

Okay so you admit that you use it without thinking about it. Does it offend you when someone suggests you might want to think about te words you use before you use them? That's just good advice in any situation, irrespective of the particular word being discussed.

 

If, in the alternative, you do think about what the word is considered to mean, and choose to use it anyway, isn't that just a deliberate choice to force your particular viewpoint on everyone else, just as you are accusing me of doing?

[Ashland]

To be clear, this is a conversation on people-first language, yes?

 

Because as it stands, the "correct" alternative to "retarded person" is, theoretically, "person who is mentally differently abled" or "person with different mental abilities".

[Fox Fire]

Okay so you admit that you use it without thinking about it. Does it offend you when someone suggests you might want to think about te words you use before you use them? That's just good advice in any situation, irrespective of the particular word being discussed.

 

If, in the alternative, you do think about what the word is considered to mean, and choose to use it anyway, isn't that just a deliberate choice to force your particular viewpoint on everyone else, just as you are accusing me of doing?

No, because I can use any words I want to offend you. I can understand censoring some of the unreasonable words, but I wouldnt call this one of them. I assume the vast majority of this community is either American or European. I also imagine that the even greater vast majority are not actually offended by use of the term "retard" on an online forum for a game that has nothing to do with your RL.

But hey, censorship is always fashionable, so we should just add another word filter.

Problem solved.

[Grillick]

Freedom of expression is a cornerstone of any free society, and Sheepy has wisely determined that the use of the term "retard," when not being used in a malicious manner, will not subject posters to warns. This thread is not about that policy. This thread is about the use of the term "retard," and whether it should continue to be used, even though it is permitted.

 

I won't issue any further warns for the use of the term, but I think it would be helpful to have an open discussion about the issue.

 

So tell me, community:

 

Do you use the term "retard" in your everyday conversations?

If you do, why?

If you don't, why not?

 

I'd like to reiterate that the purpose of this thread is not to discuss whether the use of this term should be prohibited or regulated.

 

I think it would be helpful if we made sure the discussion actually addresses the issue that was asked in the OP.

 

Why do you use the term "retard," when there are other terms that convey the same meaning without the baggage?

 

Alternatively, why do you not use the term "retard," even though it is clearly making its way into the general consciousness as an insult devoid of the baggage associated with the term?

 

"It's normal" is not a useful explanation. What I'm trying to spark here is some meaningful analysis. Take some time to think about why you use the word (or don't use the word). Then, if possible, try to explain it to the community.

 

As Fizban clarified, this isn't a debate on the rules. The rules are established.

 

However, I did let Fizban know that this might be a more appropriate way to try and discourage the use of the word. Rather than issuing warning points, which aren't justified, by simply raising awareness and making us think a little bit more about what we're actually saying or typing we might be more sensitive to others we're not intending to offend or hurt.

 

First, this isn't a debate about censoring it on this site, just as Fizban and Sheepy have stated. It's not getting censored, no need to get up in arms about that.

 

It's not like people are FREAKING OUT about the word "retarded", this is merely a discussion of whether we should/do use it in real life.

 

I think we should consider that we are not here to consider whether or not any of us are wrong or right. I was hoping this thread would become something of a way to understand the use of "retard" and similar terms considered to be derogatory. As Wilhelm stated, I was very surprised to learn that retard was used in an acceptable manner. This also shows that in different places, things are more and less acceptable. I learned something from that. I have not learned a single thing from this biased squabble.

 

Seriously, Fox Fire, nobody is talking about censorship except you. When a person asks you to explain why you use a particular word, they are not censoring you. When a person judges you for failing to explain why you use a particular word, they are not censoring you. When a person concludes that you are an !@#$ because you use a particular word even though you are aware of how socially destructive it is, they are not censoring you.

 

To equate any of these activities with censorship is to make censorship a meaningless concept, and it is systemically opposed to the marketplace of ideas that freedom of speech is intended to protect. Just as you have the right to say that something you don't like or someone who is behaving foolishly is "retarded," I have a right to call you an !@#$ for doing so. And I have a right to not call someone an !@#$ who says about the thing she doesn't like "I don't like that," or says about the person behaving foolishly, "he was behaving foolishly." To the extent that my calling you an !@#$ for using the word "retarded" when there are other, better, more accurate words to use is "censorship," you calling me a troll for doing so is also censorship.

 

Censorship is when a government or other authority figure steps in and regulates what you can and cannot say. That isn't happening here. What's happening here is that a community of people are calling you an !@#$, because you're being an !@#$. We're also trying to have a mature and reasonable discussion about the use of the term "retarded," so that we can all learn more about ourselves and each other.

 

Why do you have to come along and shit all over this conversation, which you claim not to "give a !@#$ about?" 

[Aisha Greyjoy]

I'm like that 76 year old who thinks its ok to use the N word.  When I grew up, "Retard" or "Retarded" was used to refer to a person who wasn't smart or an action or idea that wasn't smart.  And it was totally ok.  No one got in trouble for it.  No one ever spoke and said it wasn't "cool" or it was "insensitive".  But things change, right?

 

Now today, we can't say "Retarded".  When I hear the 76 year old use the N word, I'm shocked.  So are today's teenagers shocked at the word "retard?"

Edited November 4, 2014 by Aisha Greyjoy

[Aisha Greyjoy]

Look, Huff Post has an entire article about it for us cretans.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/29/r-word-advocacy_n_6064196.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

[Grillick]

Look, Huff Post has an entire article about it for us cretans.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/29/r-word-advocacy_n_6064196.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

Funny, that article seems very familiar....

 

The Military Special Needs Network has provided a useful flow chart for determining when it is OK to use the word "retard."

[Fox Fire]

As is often the case, language evolves, connotations change. And in this particular situation, the word "retard" now carries a pejorative meaning that reinforces painful stereotypes.

LOL! Exactly! Language evolves, and in the vast majority of cases, its not meant to degrade mentally disabled people.

Just like the N word. No, not the N word I frequently complain about, I mean the one used to describe people of African skin tone. See, in this case, said word was once used by whites to degrade blacks. Nowadays, its used extremely frequently by African Americans themselves to describe all sorts of people, including themselves. It is also massively prevelent in rap music.

 

But I digress. I would like to complain about the use of the word "stupid." I find it to be derogatory toward uninteligent and/or uneducated, otherwise unfortunate people. I would like to bring this to the attention of the community because I fear it is a very serious issue that needs addressed.

 

I would also like to bring to everyones attention that it is equally inapropriate to use terms like (but not limited to):

Apple

Abbie

Ann

Coon

Cracker

Crow

Cheeshead

Beaney

Haole

Hillbilly

Mack

Redneck

Redskin

Whitey

Jerry

Guido

and Bong

 

^All of the above are racial slurs which I find offensive. Please do not use them.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Fox Fire

[Aisha Greyjoy]

Funny, that article seems very familiar....

You're right.  It does seem familiar.

[Ayayay]

Oh god, this thread. One one end, we got SJW's and on the other we have /POL/  

 

I'm not going to bother quoting any of the replies as no one has the time for that (Well, I don't at least)

 

 

Before I begin, let it be known that "Retard" is a legitimate word that can be used to describe anything that holds back progress (ex. Modern consoles retard gaming)

 

Why do you use the term "retard," when there are other terms that convey the same meaning without the baggage?

I call my friends retarded mother!@#$ing !@#$ all the time. Why? Because they are my friends and that's the kinda !@#$ you do, especially when they !@#$ up. However, I can't help but feel that I inadvertently helped spawn this thread with my calling out and subsequent forum report of a... uh... certain player. Now, did I do it because I was offended by his statement or did I do it as a sort of payback due to the fact he had previously called out and reported something I said? Who knows? I will, however, say that his comment had nothing constructive to add to the topic at hand and leave it at that.

 

By the way, the fact that retarded is not censored but sh*t is is absolutely !@#$ retarded. 

 

Also, Sheepy said that "sh*t" was okay in some thread a week or two back. I personally have no clue as to why but I'm using it so people know what word I'm complaining about.

Edited November 5, 2014 by underlordgc

[Don Juan]

What I find somewhat amusing, is the the concept, or perhaps more aptly the delusion, of free speech on internet forums and how "censorship is bad" in one corner and the "political correctness" squad in the other. Both are irrelevant. Now while I do believe censorship is bad for my real-life values, it is likely to be encountered on internet forums because they're not free public commons. Sheepy owns this site, and on top of the server host country's laws and the IP Board's ToS, he can limit and censor discussion in any way he pleases. This forum is his licensed property.

 

Even 4chan isn't immune, the owner (which apparently is no longer moot), or their delegates, can censor any of the boards however they like, even /b/. Because they own it.

[Emmad]

Interesting, I assume you mean the debate on it's usage in general. I don't think people really mean the true meaning of the word when saying "oh you or that is retarded". I don't see why people get upset when it's used mainly because of this reason, however if you are talking to someone with a disability and then choose to say "you are retarded"...that is when it's a problem. Plus who gets to decide who can or can't use specific words? Freedom of speech people!

Edited November 10, 2014 by Emmad